If it really is the case that everything that happens couldn’t help but happen and people’s choices aren’t truly free, then those who believe life is meaningless and morality doesn't exist have no choice but to believe that. And nobody has any choice but to live their lives as they do in response to that.Whenever the hard determinist view is brought up in online discussions there is almost always someone that says no free will or genuine moral responsibility logically entails fatalism and nihilism. If everything that happens couldn’t help but happen and people’s choices aren’t truly free then somehow life is meaningless and morality doesn’t exist. — Captain Homicide
In reference to fatalism people still have desires to do and experience things and your choices still matter in a practical sense. — Captain Homicide
People still have to do things for things to happen. — Captain Homicide
If it really is the case that everything that happens couldn’t help but happen and people’s choices aren’t truly free, then those who believe life is meaningless and morality doesn't exist have no choice but to believe that. And nobody has any choice but to live their lives as they do in response to that. — Patterner
First of all, I agree with everything you said. Regarding the above, I don't think determinism (per se) is inconsistent with the existence of objective moral values (OMVs). On the other hand, materialism is inconsistent with OMVs, because OMVs are not material objects.As hotly contested as the topic is I can’t recall a philosopher ever using the deterministic nature of the universe as evidence that good and evil don’t exist and the lives of sentient beings have no actual value. — Captain Homicide
Even if determinism is true, we still make choices. It's true that those choices are a product of prior events, but the choices are still made - and we are the agents making them.If it really is the case that everything that happens couldn’t help but happen and people’s choices aren’t truly free, then those who believe life is meaningless and morality doesn't exist have no choice but to believe that. And nobody has any choice but to live their lives as they do in response to that. — Patterner
Wow! So that is a very improperly loaded question there.Whenever the hard determinist view is brought up in online discussions there is almost always someone that says no free will or genuine moral responsibility logically entails fatalism and nihilism. — Captain Homicide
Effectively, that would be true. If choice is predetermined there is no way to be immoral. It's a a laughable position, despite what some very well educated cowards like to propose. Both the left and the right have a vested interest in pretending that people's choices are not their own fault. It's all comforting lies, so everyone is in line to get spoon fed the Kool Aid.If everything that happens couldn’t help but happen and people’s choices aren’t truly free then somehow life is meaningless and morality doesn’t exist. — Captain Homicide
I agree that it would be true if determinism were real and accurate, but, it is not.What is your opinion on this common claim in response to hard determinism? — Captain Homicide
You mention here desire (chaos) and practical (fear) side interests and ways of thought. The truth is though that the balance between these two emotions and also a third emotion, anger, CAUSES the balance that supports free will. This precarious balance denies any possibility of determinism.My opinion is that it’s completely wrong and a fundamental misunderstanding of the matter. In reference to fatalism people still have desires to do and experience things and your choices still matter in a practical sense. — Captain Homicide
I agree with your final statement, but, ALLOWING the idea of determinism to stand as 'fact' or 'knowledge' is immoral/irresponsible.People still have to do things for things to happen. Very few people would be content or able to lay in bed and stare at a ceiling their entire life because their choices are technically predetermined going back to the beginning of the universe. Choosing not to do anything out of fatalism is still a choice and a very miserable one. — Captain Homicide
Yes they are. If you have no free will it robs your actions of meaning. The only and all meanings are predetermined. You do not matter at all. Your choices do not matter.In reference to nihilism I think meaning and morality aren’t dependent on hard determinism being true or false. — Captain Homicide
This misses the real point, the heavy point. That is that unless choices matter, there is no reason to make the right one. You can murder with impunity, because you were clearly predestined to do so. It opens up a STRATEGY for devious minds to do whatever the hell they want and expect no punishment because you can't punish someone if their choice is not there, if free will is not there; or you SHOULD NOT punish them for that.Things still have meaning and value to people if only in a practical sense even if there was no other way for things to happen and you couldn’t possibly make choices other than the choices you made. — Captain Homicide
Yeah that is deeply immoral thinking, subjectivist nonsense.Depending on your philosophical views this is likely the most contentious part but I think people would and can still have value and rights that shouldn’t be violated with or without determinism being true. — Captain Homicide
I agree, but, that statement undoes your whole argument.Objective rights and value may not exist in a tangible, scientifically provable sense but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist at all. — Captain Homicide
Yet your arguments negate one another, logically and idealistically. So they are just horrid, all the way except that you still seem to pine away for morality while denying it, effectively. Determinism is a cheap fear-based failure of awareness. Robert Sopolsky needs to go back to school!Pain and pleasure are still very much real things whether they’re determined to happen or not. Whether or not someone like Hitler, Osama, El Chapo Bundy had ultimate control over their choices doesn’t make them any less morally abhorrent or their actions any less evil or harmful. As hotly contested as the topic is I can’t recall a philosopher ever using the deterministic nature of the universe as evidence that good and evil don’t exist and the lives of sentient beings have no actual value. — Captain Homicide
You do go through a choice-making process, don't you? For important decisions, you may deliberate for a time, weighing the pros and cons of alternatives. Your beliefs and whims will factor in, as will your hopes, desires, risk tolerance - all influenced by your genetic makeup. But all those factors are intrinsic to who you are.But if the choices are determined, then are they really choices? — Patterner
Of course, whatever choice you make could not have been different at the point you make it, given your life-history. But you will also learn from the consequences of your decision, adding factors that will influence future choices. This is why I have previously argued that moral accountability is at least somewhat reasonable: future behavior is influenced by reward/punishment.If determinism is true, and the person's genetic makeup, upbringing, other past experiences, health at the moment, and all other factors, will allow only one option — Patterner
But if the choices are determined, then are they really choices? — Patterner
You do go through a choice-making process, don't you? — Relativist
But you don't get to "give meaning to the factors" if it's all deterministic. Your genetic makeup, experiences, etc., give everything meaning to the group of cells referred to as Relativist. Then, when you are in a situation where different directions are taken by different people, the meaning that all those factors have determined you have determine which direction you take.And your choices aren't meaningless. You give meaning to the factors, and those meanings influence the choice. The person who chooses to keep the money you drop is doing so because of what money means to him. — Relativist
You do go through a "process" yes. But (while I'm not saying you did so deliberately) note how your wording even implies ultimate passivity. — ENOAH
This ignores the fact that your genetic makeup, experiences, etc comprise you. That particular group of cells performs functions, including the cognitive functions of making choices.But you don't get to "give meaning to the factors" if it's all deterministic. Your genetic makeup, experiences, etc., give everything meaning to the group of cells referred to as Relativist. — Patterner
I agree that the process is, in one sense, programmed, but you are the program. There's also a sense in which you aren't programmed: you aren't the product of design. You weren't built in order to perform the functions you execute.when you are in a situation where different directions are taken by different people, the meaning that all those factors have determined you have determine which direction you take.
The fact that we lack the freedom to refrain from things like breathing seems irrelevant- — Relativist
Right. And ChatGPT is the program. And Deep Blue is the program.I agree that the process is, in one sense, programmed, but you are the program. — Relativist
I agree. But that's another conversation entirely.There's also a sense in which you aren't programmed: you aren't the product of design. You weren't built in order to perform the functions you execute. — Relativist
That's very well said. The question is: Why does it seem there is a being in the mechanistic process? IOW, the Hard Problem. Why do these physical processes have this seeming if they are nothing but physical processes, when these other physical processes don't? And if there is no being present, then to what does the seeming seem to be?We don't doubt the mechanistic independence of breathing because it is obvious. We doubt the mechanistic dynamics of choosing because, built-into (evolved) that process is the placement of the Subject "I." Hence "I am deliberating," seems like there is a being at the center of the mechanistic process pulling the strings at its will. I say there is not — ENOAH
And if there is no being present, then to what does the seeming seem to be? — Patterner
Why does it seem there is a being in the mechanistic process? — Patterner
And the reason free will does exist is because morality is objective. I can explain much more deeply and thoroughly, if needed. — Chet Hawkins
If choice is predetermined there is no way to be immoral. — Chet Hawkins
Both the left and the right have a vested interest in pretending that people's choices are not their own fault. It's all comforting lies, — Chet Hawkins
That is Kant's Deontological morality, where intent is the what is judged, NOT consequences. THAT is moral. — Chet Hawkins
If you have no free will it robs your actions of meaning. The only and all meanings are predetermined. You do not matter at all. Your choices do not matter. — Chet Hawkins
Yes, determinism doesn't necessarily prevent me from feeling pleasure or having meaning, but it also doesn't give me any say in the matter. — QuixoticAgnostic
An extremely important point. A few scenarios come to mind.Yes, determinism doesn't necessarily prevent me from feeling pleasure or having meaning, but it also doesn't give me any say in the matter.
— QuixoticAgnostic
Does indeterminism? It wouldn't seem so to me. — flannel jesus
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