2. But C is Natural, you (and likely most people(?)) say. It's not there in the so-called primal. So it must have evolved...(?) — ENOAH
our human nature engages in a lot of processes where we necessarily behave as if we were two; — ENOAH
Also if hubris is nature, is it really bad? Yes, I know, aggression is nature and also bad; and so are hurricanes. But are they? — ENOAH
we can most effectively protect our organic beings, and the species, if we recognize that both the so called good and the so called bad are already not what we are, — ENOAH
Bacon's idols were, as Bacon thought, mental errors, and that is an appropriate human concern no matter what era. — isomorph
It is apparent from the growth of knowledge about the universe that many ideas held in sacrosanct have been demolished. — isomorph
Hannah Arendt gave an appropriate analysis of the human condition from the perspective of western philosophy — isomorph
I am saying there is an overarching human condition — isomorph
The human condition pertains to how we are on the earth and in the world we make. — isomorph
Nice!Heraclitus fragment 61: “While cosmic wisdom understands all things are good and just, intelligence may find injustice here and justice somewhere else.” — isomorph
The universe is impartial, while justice, injustice, purpose and meaning all have to do with humans living together successfully"
I agree!
— isomorph
An excruciatingly excellent point. I'm recklessly broad and general in these brief encounters. No excuse. I totally need to sharpen my skills to fit the box. In fairness to other. Apologies.I don’t tend to use words ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural” lightly because they are easily misunderstood as good and bad. — isomorph
I personally, think Bacon was being a tad bit extreme (for good reason, at his time), that today, these idols are becoming (I hope) less perverse. I — 013zen
So, it is apparent then that ideas have been replaced with ideas. But, by what mechanism does this replacement occur? — 013zen
Yes, and while perhaps appropriate, the question remains...she thinks that we are "apparently" beings meant to engage in praxis. — 013zen
Our prehistorical ancestors had thinking capacity equal to ours, maybe greater than ours, and this can be seen in prehistoric cave art created by intellectual masters. — isomorph
How do the drawings on cave walls imply intellectual capacities rather than simply artistic abilities? — jgill
a thinking capacity equal to ours, maybe greater than ours
Within the standard cultural lexicon, it might be impolite to assume people know what a Chaldean is.Our Idols Have Feet of Clay
King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon had a dream. “The king ordered the magicians, exorcists, sorcerers, and Chaldeans to be summoned in order to tell the king what he had dreamed.” Nebuchadnezzar was a true sceptic and required the interpreter to tell what the dream was before he made an interpretation. The Chaldeans engaged in obfuscation in an attempt to garner enough information to do a cold reading, but the king was having none of it. — isomorph
When quoting religious text or translations it is a good idea to state your belief set overview.Daniel had a vision before he was summoned to the king, and when he was brought to the king, Daniel related the dream and the interpretation: — isomorph
I have been aware of this for a long time in my life. People use aphorisms incorrectly. There is a whole chapter in my soon to come book about this very issue, near and dear to my heart.The head of the statue was of fine gold; its breasts and arms were
of silver; its belly and thighs, of bronze; its legs were of iron, and its
feet part iron and part clay. As you looked on, a stone was hewn out,
not by hands, and struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and
crushed them. All at once, the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold
were crushed, and became like chaff on the threshing floors of
summer; a wind carried them off until no trace of them was left.
I do not want to consider Daniel’s interpretation, rather I want to consider the common phrase used today, ‘feet of clay’, how it is used and suggest it is an erroneous gloss. People often say, “All of our idols have feet of clay”, meaning we all have flaws, we should not get too disappointed when our heroes fail us, etc. However, in Daniel’s story, it was not only the feet of clay that were destroyed, but the entire idol, gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay all became “like chaff” carried off by the wind “until no trace of them was left.” — isomorph
Don't you mean the LACK of 'human' thinking? Thinking is just thinking. There is no reason to say 'human'. My border collie of years past could give many humans a run for their money.According to Daniel’s telling, the idol was destroyed entirely without any trace left. People today do not usually want their idols destroyed completely, but want to assuage their disappointment in a person with a phrase, but this meaning has drifted from the original story. This illustration of semantic drift shows something about the development of human thinking. — isomorph
I agree that language and most poignantly, its use by the common man, is becoming a problem, rather than a solution. As mentioned in other threads and again underscored in my last comment on this post, cultural agency has increased, but that means the number of misuses and ... immoral ... interpretations has also increased. The artifacts of that increase and then the number of choosers of immoral paths will begin to pile up.Along with semantic drift, there is also misprision through linguistic interpretation as Macintyre points out, “there is no precise English equivalent for the Greek word dikaiosune, usually translated justice.” Hall and Ames deal with the problem in translating Confucius: “the most accurate picture of Confucius can be obtained if we reject the possibility of such a reconstruction and instead attempt to change lenses and sharpen our focus in such a manner that we enhance our vision of Confucius from the perspective of the present.”As languages drift and develop, not considering the Tower of Babel, humans are able to add technical sophistication to their communication, e.g., Hegel’s thesis/antithesis/synthesis as a technical development of Heraclitus 46, — isomorph
Lol! Nope! Some such theories are now 'proven'. But I have no desire to derail and your main point is still greatly worthy. So on-on!and, also, convoluted errors are added to our thinking, e.g., pick any conspiracy theory. — isomorph
Well, yes, think better is probably a stretch. Still aware of more and thus able to use the same mechanisms of thought and thinking to arrive at better AND WORSE conclusions, yes.Technical sophistication, misprision and convoluted errors characterize the development of civilized language and thinking, but it might be hubris to believe that modern humans can think better than our prehistoric ancestors. — isomorph
This is wildly incorrect.We should reconsider this metaphor of the idol and consider that our idols are provoking us to think, not telling us what to think, since our language and perspective are different, even from contemporaries using our native language. Our idols, in whatever genre, should provoke us to thought without dogma and erroneous semantic drift, or fetishes, or dreams of Arcadia or Utopia. — isomorph
I agree that this tendency is out there, mostly on the left, chaos-apology territory, where everything is a fungible orgy of rot and self-indulgence. Great ...I think humans evolved to see existence as a surd and all of our idols are attempts to square the irrational , but, like Nebuchadnezzar’s dream idol, they will all end like chaff on the threshing floor and be dispersed by the wind as idol replaces idol and our knowledge moves asymptotically toward the nature of reality. Humans depend on intersubjectivity as confirmation of our perception of reality. — isomorph
"No matter where you go, there you are!" - K'ung-fu-tzuIn a private conversation, Roger Ames tried to dissuade me of the notion of finding parallels between western thinking and the “classical Chinese mind.” I fully understand his point, but, as Confucius said, “By nature we are alike, by practice we have become far apart.” I think there is an atavism in our nature as modern humans that ties us to all cultures and time periods. — isomorph
'Well, watery tarts throwing around scimitars is no basis for a system of government!'Our prehistorical ancestors had thinking capacity equal to ours, maybe greater than ours, and this can be seen in prehistoric cave art created by intellectual masters. — isomorph
I like all of these 'maxims'. The flux of progress requires fear (status quo and conservative nature) as well as discovery and following of desire to a point. The trick amid the truth of the word WISDOM, is balance. In other words, balance order and chaos.Propositions:
1. As we progress, our idols are destroyed and replaced, e.g., Ptolemy/Copernicus.
2. Improved instrumentation allows us to verify our perceptions and correct our thinking. Aristarchus saw a heliocentric universe before Ptolemaic geocentric universe was replaced by Copernicus’ heliocentric universe.
3. History can be an idol to be destroyed as in the case of Pythagoras and his theorem, which was known in other cultures long before Pythagoras. Also the victor usually wipes out the history of the vanquished.
4. Our historical idols did not spring up by the prowess of their own genius, but stood on the shoulders of giants as Newton said.
4. We should be conservative in accepting changes, but remember the priests have always had a vested interest in maintaining status quo. — isomorph
there is also misprision through linguistic interpretation as Macintyre points out, “there is no precise English equivalent for the Greek word dikaiosune, usually translated justice.” — isomorph
I hardly feel that our idols are becoming less perverse. — isomorph
A starting point to see how this paradigm shift happens is in Kuhn's The Structure of Scientic Revolutions. — isomorph
Fill up life with things that pertain to life. — isomorph
Love it! I look forward to the stimulants that come from percolation!↪Chet Hawkins Thank you! I chose isoporph because I was tired of choosing a name and the machine said that name is already taken. I've put my own name in sometimes and I'm told , "That is taken!" So isomorph it is. I will have to take some time to let your post percolate before I can comment on you wonderful observations. As far as quoting religious texts, my belief system is I like reading old literature. I can't say I ascribe to any one. None would have me after getting to know me, and the feeling would end up being mutual. Years ago, Wilt Chamberlain was being interviewed and the Olympic committee had bad things to say about him. His response "Their opinion of me is probably higher than my opinion of them." — isomorph
I just asked my Greek friend, he says it means justice. — Lionino
With the advent, development, and widespread adoption of Scientific inclination, with an increasingly upward trend. — 013zen
By calling her work: The Human Condition, she's saying that this is the position we are all in, aka this is the environment that we exist in, and that enables us a unique freedom that other beings don't have. — 013zen
I am uncertain as to whether or not that's truly what makes a human a human. — 013zen
People use aphorisms incorrectly. — Chet Hawkins
people cloak themselves in that which they believe is wisdom, and all unknowingly, thus subvert wisdom. — Chet Hawkins
Don't you mean the LACK of 'human' thinking? Thinking is just thinking. There is no reason to say 'human'. My border collie of years past could give many humans a run for their money. — Chet Hawkins
It is thus extremely accurate to say that inasmuch as most people were deeply unwise before, they have extended the capacity for a lack of wisdom to new and greater depths as time passes. — Chet Hawkins
Humans are worth mentioning as greater sinners than animals (or rocks). What evolves past humanity will have even more negative or sinful potential. It is a law of the universe. — Chet Hawkins
I agree that language and most poignantly, its use by the common man, is becoming a problem, rather than a solution. — Chet Hawkins
Utopia is REQUIRED to be moral. That is not extant Utopia, as in realized by humanity or other 'thinkers', but Utopia as a dream, as a goal — Chet Hawkins
It also means 'You are God and I am God and We are God together'. Maybe there was a song ... — Chet Hawkins
Umqua and Hoo were just putting ochre in their hair man for the Wa-da festival, to impress the dudes. Then they smacked it on the wall. And life was boring so they had some drawing contests. Intellectual masters might be a stretch. — Chet Hawkins
I agree. But in case you are asking, let's say for an example, life and reality are aligned and balanced properly amid morality by a radical polarization to spur action and flux. This dichotomy is seen throughout life and in every way at every level. From the balance of charges to include the neutral in atoms themselves all the way up to such 'enlightened' beings as humans, and AT NO LEVEL in this advance is the balance or morality ever abandoned (or can be).↪Chet Hawkins
People use aphorisms incorrectly.
— Chet Hawkins
"That begs the question..." That is a phrase that has gained some currency, and it has been incorrectly lifted from the philosopher's lexicon. — isomorph
Agreed and yet ... not relevant. Do opinions matter to truth? No, they do not. So, amid the effort to uncover and understand truth, like in any other discipline, experts are advisable to lead the way. But I see expertise as compromised too much these days (as before). Money corrupts the issue largely and its pressure is unforgivable. Capitalism was indeed a better way once. But its use has passed, and we are all too unwise to see it now as the One Ring of Sauron that it always was.people cloak themselves in that which they believe is wisdom, and all unknowingly, thus subvert wisdom.
— Chet Hawkins
Xenophanes - "But opinion is allotted to all." — isomorph
Well, I think the limit to human is a problem, because it subsumes often enough a conceit that is part and parcel of the problem in question. Still, I am just making sure the scope of delusion of whoever I have dialogue with. People demonstrate to me all the time that they are incapable of entertaining other points of view for real. I suppose one might rightly accuse me of a shock-jock style of dialogue. So be it! Gadfly status is a hard cross to bear. 'Men of Athens! ...'Don't you mean the LACK of 'human' thinking? Thinking is just thinking. There is no reason to say 'human'. My border collie of years past could give many humans a run for their money.
— Chet Hawkins
I say human because I want to limit the subject of this conversation to humans. I love my dog, too. — isomorph
Aware of it? I lived it many times. I designed, wrote, installed, sold, and maintained many many software works (of art). In some cases my work has been sold to 500+ large businesses within one year and I got a pittance bonus at best. Investment money should not make such a share. Investment in people is when you support them making THEIR way in the world, not yourself, or not yourself alone or mostly.It is thus extremely accurate to say that inasmuch as most people were deeply unwise before, they have extended the capacity for a lack of wisdom to new and greater depths as time passes.
— Chet Hawkins
My idea is that there was more wisdom and invention in our prehistoric ancestors, otherwise we would not be able to talk about this on this contraption I am using right now. I have to think that they were smarter and more capable than we are. I will not name a recent example, but you must be aware of some 'geniuses' whose fortunes are built upon someone else's work. — isomorph
So, refrain, restraint, ... these are fear words, order-centric. And the avoidance of discussion of morality or sins or good and evil, is just that, avoiding the truth. I am NOT religious, but was raised Methodist Christian. My model of reality, which I am writing a book on, is for 'generic' wisdom, free from any organized religion and focusing only on objective moral truth (wisdom).Humans are worth mentioning as greater sinners than animals (or rocks). What evolves past humanity will have even more negative or sinful potential. It is a law of the universe.
— Chet Hawkins
From your speech, I see you take that as axiomatic. I refrain from words like 'sinner' and 'evil', because try as I might, I am not much of a poet. We make choices that can be beneficial, or detrimental, or both at the same time. I am not persuaded that it is a law that whatever comes next will have exceedingly 'sinful potential'. Is that entropy? — isomorph
I agree, it's always been RELATIVELY the same. That means because it is better now, it's also worse now, but the same relatively. Empowerment of leaders and speed of human civil awareness growth BUT NOT WISDOM, in fact one-sided or RELATIVELY less wisdom, we are in more trouble.I agree that language and most poignantly, its use by the common man, is becoming a problem, rather than a solution.
— Chet Hawkins
I do not think the situation is worse than it has been. I am constantly echoing Confucius' 2600 year old cry, "We need a rectification of names!" Heraclitus moved up to the mountains because he did not want to listen to crowd anymore, if I am reading it correctly. — isomorph
These ARE NOT opposed to one another as you suggest. They are the same. Denigration of idealism as an aim is an immoral Pragmatic failure. This is nothing so much as order short-cutting truth via fear to be efficient and 'get er done'. It IS NOT a wise way to proceed and it never will be. The ideals lead the way. They steer the ship. The Pragmatists, like it or not, ONLY get to decide HOW to do what the idealists know WHY to do. I think it's important as well to say that the speed of change is relevant. In general the idealists are far too impatient. Change must be at a pace slow enough for the fear types not to panic.Utopia is REQUIRED to be moral. That is not extant Utopia, as in realized by humanity or other 'thinkers', but Utopia as a dream, as a goal
— Chet Hawkins
Utopia is not required to be moral. Living together successfully requires ethics for living together successfully. I am not a German Idealist, however I think Kant had some understanding of things required for 'us to just all get along.' And the US Constitution is aspirational, but no utopia. Utopia is an idealist concept, as opposed to aspirations towards getting along with one another and not killing ourselves and others. — isomorph
Ha ha! I figured. But it's less aggrandizing than is realized. We all have the responsibility of God as well.It also means 'You are God and I am God and We are God together'. Maybe there was a song ...
— Chet Hawkins
Way to idealistic for me. Sorry! — isomorph
I disagree that they were any more capable. In fact, in general, the opposite. But I agree entirely that today's people use less well what is readily available to them. They simply follow their random pleasure seeking far too much and get locked into various patterns of addiction much more easily. It is the rot of ease that is costing us now. We do not understand that ease is effectively immoral.Umqua and Hoo were just putting ochre in their hair man for the Wa-da festival, to impress the dudes. Then they smacked it on the wall. And life was boring so they had some drawing contests. Intellectual masters might be a stretch.
— Chet Hawkins
I would like to persuade you that your opinion of our predecessors is not true. Our cultural cloud has given us the stereotypical caveman, which I do not think is accurate. McLuhan in Understanding Media talk about 'primitive' people encountering technology and they assimilate it into their lives just as 'modern' people. From what I can ascertain in news reports, terrorists living in remote areas are more technically sophisticated than I am. They have used the internet, Facebook, etc. more than I have, and before I have used them. I have no test to show the intelligence of our predecessors. The experimentation and invention that were required to give their progeny a foundation required much luck and much genius. Mathew Arnold talked about "the power of the man and the power of the moment." I think that applies to our ancient ancestors. — isomorph
AT NO LEVEL in this advance is the balance or morality ever abandoned (or can be). — Chet Hawkins
on the surface of things, you see the immoral dynamic. — Chet Hawkins
This flies directly in the face of all polarized foolishness like literally almost everything we see on the news today. — Chet Hawkins
Agreed and yet ... not relevant. Do opinions matter to truth? — Chet Hawkins
Capitalism was indeed a better way once. — Chet Hawkins
That means we need to GET BUSY defining what is wise and what is not, for real, best subjective guesses on objective morality. — Chet Hawkins
Well, I think the limit to human is a problem, — Chet Hawkins
But I disagree strongly that they were wiser than us per capita. In fact we are wiser in every way than they were, even per capita — Chet Hawkins
So, refrain, restraint, ... these are fear words, order-centric. And the avoidance of discussion of morality or sins or good and evil, is just that, avoiding the truth. — Chet Hawkins
My model of reality, which I am writing a book on, is for 'generic' wisdom, free from any organized religion and focusing only on objective moral truth (wisdom). — Chet Hawkins
Denigration of idealism as an aim is an immoral Pragmatic failure. — Chet Hawkins
That is Steven Pinker's position — isomorph
but we have not progressed as far as we think we have because we have the ability to alleviate much of the suffering that continues in the world, and much of it is autogenic, not just from natural catastrophes. — isomorph
Science has learned, I agree with you, but, humans, in their core, have not changed that much. "Technical sophistication, misprision and convoluted errors" is what I said earlier, and I still think that is a true characterization of humanity, past,
present, and future. — isomorph
That is a truly idealistic thought. I am not an idealist, and I think we are already all human with our science, conspiracies, warts, and all. — isomorph
It's interesting that you mention Pinker, because his overall thesis is simply that the world is getting better, and that this is quantifiable — 013zen
With that being said, I don't think anyone is willing to admit that we couldn't perhaps do better in a number of areas, but that might always be true. — 013zen
there will always be disparages among the population. Lessening that is obviously the goal, and its one we seem to be moving towards. — 013zen
Remember, evolution takes time. — 013zen
Your argument is still deficient. Not just farming, but look into written history.You could easily look up that the first piece of writing in Greek predates the first in Chinese by some 200 years.
Farming villages are not enough to establish "civilisation". — Lionino
but look into written history — L'éléphant
if not the oldest — L'éléphant
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