Whether this somehow benefits the universe in any way other than it possibly leading to you directly benefiting other proximal beings and/ or your environment, remains obscure to me. — Janus
I've always been attracted to Keats's -- what? observation? suggestion? -- that the world is "a vale of soul-making". Through suffering we grow a soul, and thus become more fully human, more than we were when we were born. I think that's the idea, and it's interesting to cast that Greek idea in these terms -- it's the growth not of your body but of your soul, that matters. — Srap Tasmaner
Whether this somehow benefits the universe in any way other than it possibly leading to you directly benefiting other proximal beings and/ or your environment, remains obscure to me. Would even benefiting the whole Earth make any appreciable difference to the Cosmos as a whole? I can't see any way to coherently understand how it could. Perhaps you can enlighten me? — Janus
I can make no sense of a grand scheme without positing a grand schemer, a grand designer without a grand designer or a grand purpose without a grand purposer. — Janus
The questions here are, then, what is purpose (in itself), where does it come from, what is its ground? Or, what exactly gives it all meaning, makes it all worthwhile? — tim wood
Fair enough? And may we say as well, boot-strapped? By which I mean valued because they are valued, any other value being derivative and incidental. — tim wood
And purpose comes with – or is invented by – mind. — tim wood
I understand reality as being the world we all live in, and also a set of constraints which things not of or in reality are not subject to. I don't object to beliefs, except when, as concerning things not of or in reality, the believer tries to place them into reality. And as God is supposed to be unconstrained, he cannot be in reality nor rationally supposed to be there. So the question to you, then, do you think God real, in the sense of being in reality?Quite simply, God is the source of purpose.... When we come to apprehend the reality of God then all that purpose makes sense. — Metaphysician Undercover
Would you agree with me that teleology is an ancient attempt to make sense and that it is not of any great use today, nor since, say, Christians persuaded the world that God made nature? Or at least since Galileo?
— tim wood
Nope. — Wayfarer
“The meaning of a sensation is something primary and biologically given. There is no need to interpret the feelings of hunger and thirst, for example. The meaning of a sensation is embedded in the sensation itself. It may be said that a sensation is its meaning. Primary feelings are genetically given, and constructed in the course of gestation just as organs are. They are “standard equipment” in every animal body.”
— Mind and the Cosmic Order: How the Mind Creates the Features & Structure of All Things, and Why this Insight Transforms Physics by Charles Pinter — Wayfarer
But ‘purpose in law' is the last thing we should apply to the history of the emergence of law: on the contrary, there is no more important proposition for every sort of history than that which we arrive at only with great effort but which we really should reach, – namely that the origin of the emergence of a thing and its ultimate usefulness, its practical application and incorporation into a system of ends, are toto coelo separate; that anything in existence, having somehow come about, is continually interpreted anew, requisitioned anew, transformed and redirected to a new purpose by a power superior to it; that everything that occurs in the organic world consists of overpowering, dominating, and in their turn, overpowering and dominating consist of re-interpretation, adjustment, in the process of which their former ‘meaning' [Sinn] and ‘purpose' must necessarily be obscured or completely obliterated.
No matter how perfectly you have understood the usefulness of any physiological organ (or legal institution, social custom, political usage, art form or religious rite), you have not yet thereby grasped how it emerged: uncomfortable and unpleasant as this may sound to more elderly ears,– for people down the ages have believed that the obvious purpose of a thing, its utility, form and shape, are its reason for existence, the eye is made to see, the hand to grasp. So people think punishment has evolved for the purpose of punishing. But every purpose and use is just a sign that the will to power has achieved mastery over something less powerful, and has impressed upon it its own idea [Sinn] of a use function; and the whole history of a ‘thing', an organ, a tradition can to this extent be a continuous chain of signs, continually revealing new interpretations and adaptations, the causes of which need not be connected even amongst themselves, but rather sometimes just follow and replace one another at random.
The ‘development' of a thing, a tradition, an organ is therefore certainly not its progressus towards a goal, still less is it a logical progressus, taking the shortest route with least expenditure of energy and cost, – instead it is a succession of more or less profound, more or less mutually independent processes of subjugation exacted on the thing, added to this the resistances encountered every time, the attempted transformations for the purpose of defense and reaction, and the results, too, of successful countermeasures. The form is fluid, the ‘meaning' [Sinn] even more so . . . It is no different inside any individual organism: every time the whole grows appreciably, the ‘meaning' [Sinn] of the individual organs shifts…
I think Socrates had more in mind, not so much to know himself so as to become who and what he is, but rather instead who and what he ought to be. And this the same as the navigator's admonition to know where you are, so that you can properly get about going where you're going.One of those Greeks advised us: "Know thyself.".... And that's why it makes more sense to say this sort of purpose is discovered rather than invented. — Srap Tasmaner
I'll say one more little thing: I've always been attracted to Keats's.... the world is "a vale of soul-making". Through suffering we grow a soul, and thus become more fully human, more than we were when we were born. I think that's the idea, and it's interesting to cast that Greek idea in these terms -- it's the growth not of your body but of your soul, that matters. — Srap Tasmaner
These are responsibilities I assume freely, of choice — Vera Mont
I think with these you have landed both feet in the center ring. If it's God, then I hold that to be a matter of faith, which I hold to be personal, from the self and not from God but from an idea. That leaves the question as to why assume responsibilities. Not asking, but glad to read if you respond.I should not have responded. If all the meanings of 'purpose' are eliminated from discussion, there's nothing left to discuss but God. — Vera Mont
That makes the issue of "being alive" a little tricky, because it's easy to say that this is the primary and overarching goal of a living organism, but it's also set apart, as that which enables any other goal. Is there something else set apart from such goals, perhaps also set apart from maintaining yourself as a living organism? I think there sort of is.
@unenlightened gives you the first bit: this kind of purposiveness is something that inheres in living, in acting, in being, not something outside it. Getting your ducks in a row is a row-ly way of behaving with ducks — Srap Tasmaner
I agree, pretty much. By will and motive I infer you include reason, and I'd have preferred you left out "psychological" because I do not know what that means.Purpose is like the concept of cause and effect. It doesn't exist in the empirical world. It comes from the human mind i.e. imagination, desire, motives or will. It is psychological in nature. — Corvus
Purpose is a dynamically self-adjusting back and forth between self and world , remaking itself constantly both from the side of the organism and its environment. — Joshs
Ok, but this would seem to cover everything from Sydney Carton's last purpose, to scratching an itch. I.e., imho, not at all to be dismissed, but also not over-valued.However purpose is understood, it follows from judgement alone, and for whatever a purpose is supposed to be follows from the kind/content of the judgement from which it is given. — Mww
Will you share a laugh with me if I read this as,Can we do purpose without first doing teleology on the one hand, or aesthetics on the other? — Mww
Hmm. There is in this a question of governance. No doubt inevitably I shall never exceed the limits of what I can or should be, but within, do I not have some choice, even free choice, to both discover what may be and to try to invent what is not yet? And if any at all, then all? And if I'm lucky, comporting with the imperatives, themselves creatures of reason?Invented or discovered? Neither: they follow implicitly and necessarily from that which is the condition for them, that being….a-hem…..predisposition in accordance with subjective moral law. — Mww
The organism and the environment have memory, and the organism -- us -- can also reflect on those interactions, and develop some sense of how things are related, and the great variability of those relatings. There's a possibility there of coming to feel at home in the world, which can be very difficult for us. And in feeling at home, achieving freedom, which is also hard for us — Srap Tasmaner
if our world is so familiar that we treat it as an unchanging given, then we achieve no freedom — Joshs
I understand reality as being the world we all live in, and also a set of constraints which things not of or in reality are not subject to. I don't object to beliefs, except when, as concerning things not of or in reality, the believer tries to place them into reality. — tim wood
And as God is supposed to be unconstrained, he cannot be in reality nor rationally supposed to be there. — tim wood
And in terms of purpose - of any kind - can you point to or articulate any that do not come into being through a man's or a woman's speech or writing? — tim wood
Which I don't have, and therefore should not discuss how it works on the faithful.If it's God, then I hold that to be a matter of faith, — tim wood
Usually not an idea that originates with the faithful. While each believer does a little customizing of the canon, the bulk and overwhelming content of it comes from other minds. A very, very few interpreters of the god's requirements tell all the faithful how best to gain the god's favour. They may think they place themselves in the god's hands; in fact, they place themselves in the ruling prelate's hands.which I hold to be personal, from the self and not from God but from an idea. — tim wood
We are social animals. We crave community, family, closeness, affection, recognition, a sense of belonging and contributing and being valued. To that end, we take a series of small and large decisions that result in what we know as ordinary life. That includes adults taking responsibility for the young, paying their dues, keeping the peace, lending a hand, making the world around them liveable for others as well as themselves. That requires no supernatural intervention.That leaves the question as to why assume responsibilities. — tim wood
Are you serious? Is it not the case that the purpose of an animal's heart is to circulate blood, and the purpose of sense organs is to sense, etc..? — Metaphysician Undercover
I buy it; I get it. But I doubt you would say that it's just a quid pro quo of doing and in return getting. I "hear" duty, and not as a consequence of accepting responsibility, but as ground for that acceptance. If so, that would be duty for duty's sake, being both a good example of what I call boot-strapping, and also entirely and deeply admirable. Maybe call it self-ownership of both halves.We are social animals. We crave... being valued. To that end, we take.... responsibility... for others as well as themselves. That requires no supernatural intervention. — Vera Mont
Purpose is like the concept of cause and effect. It doesn't exist in the empirical world. It comes from the human mind i.e. imagination, desire, motives or will. It is psychological in nature.
— Corvus
I agree, pretty much. — tim wood
In a way, that's what a social contract always is. But it's not that simple or two-dimensional.But I doubt you would say that it's just a quid pro quo of doing and in return getting. — tim wood
I don't know what that sentence means. We have duties and obligations, responsibilities and debts - all different, each resulting from a set of circumstances that are partly given (of the environment and a condition of survival) and partly undertaken by the subject for his or her own reasons.I "hear" duty, and not as a consequence of accepting responsibility, but as ground for that acceptance. — tim wood
No such thing. Duty has no 'sake'; it's always in service to something much larger. There is duty for the sake of patriotism, or an oath, or as a condition of citizenship, or as part of a binding contract.duty for duty's sake — tim wood
I really wish you wouldn't. It grates very hard on my grammatical nerves.being both a good example of what I call boot-strapping — tim wood
…..for whatever a purpose is supposed to be follows from the kind/content of the judgement from which it is given.
— Mww
Ok, but this would seem to cover everything — tim wood
…..predisposition in accordance with subjective moral law.
— Mww
Hmm. There is in this a question of governance. — tim wood
But there's something even deeper than that, but more simple: the resonance of mind and world as I tried to convey in that overlooked quote from David Bentley Hart - that 'the natural order was seen as a reality already akin to intellect'. — Wayfarer
That might be due to your cultural heritage, might it not? Buddhists have no such difficulty. Granted, they would also probably not talk in terms of a 'cosmic purpose', but it is at least implicit in their cosmologies, without a director to supervise the whole show. But in Western culture, we're caught up in this kind of Hegelian dialectic of theism (thesis), atheism (anti-thesis) and an emerging synthesis (whatever that turns out to be). — Wayfarer
I have never encountered an idea of "cosmic purpose" in my readings of Buddhist texts — Janus
As a reality for us it remains an idea. What it might be as mind-independent reality is of course unknowable (per Kant). — Janus
Without that idea of intention, the notion of purpose seems reducible to simply the way things behave, or a kind of immanent cosmic balance as presented in the notions of dharma and Dao. — Janus
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