Which is quite reasonable. Plumbers make about $60,000; a welder's average is $47,000. Still not vast, and they don't start out $50,000 in the hole.
If their graduate kids make a little more, they can buy their old parents a cruise of something. — Vera Mont
Student loaninterest forgiveness for low earners. — Vera Mont
So long as the workers are being oppressed. — Vera Mont
Once social justice and balance are established, — Vera Mont
there are no sides and classes. — Vera Mont
Everybody shares the resources and contributes to the community. — Vera Mont
That means, every child has the opportunity to learn as much as he or she is able to and wants to, without penalties. A just society would have no such thing as student debts, or any other kind of debt-load that keeps growing, even while you're paying. A just society would outlaw compound interest and 90% of the other financial legerdemain on Wall street. — Vera Mont
You're make a big show of defending the workers - represented by a skilled occupation, the holder of which probably considers himself middle class, anyway - while assuming that the working class is a static, unchangeable entity: nobody in, nobody out, beleaguered forever by white collar workers.
That's as gross a misrepresentation as that of NY crime and that of Biden's policies. — Vera Mont
That is the inevitable outcome, every cycle. Boom, growth, consolidation, wealth concentration, political corruption, bust, depression, protest, repression or revolution. — Vera Mont
That's not happening and nobody's planning it.You convinced me. Let's transfer the legally contracted debt of people who signed for it, to those who never took out that debt, never saw any of the money, and are busy working while the kids are partying it up in school. — fishfry
Well, at least he's not "vastly outearning" the hard-working people who will not have to take up the tax burden! Did he recently graduate from college, try to repay his student loan but didn't earn enough to cover the accumulated interest? In that case, he may be eligible for relief from some of the accumulated interest. On vacation, not.Fred has no job or money. He's a low earner. — fishfry
Does that mean I shouldn't be on the workers' side after all?Everyone can claim to be oppressed, especially if being oppressed gets them nice benefits in your communist paradise. — fishfry
That's what communism actually means - nothing to do with Stalin or Mao.From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. — fishfry
Well, that's the problem with every ideal.Don't hold your breath for human nature to change. That's the problem with communism. Humans. — fishfry
I'm not going to disagree with you. But I think regarding it as a plot in the standard sense is not the best way to think about it. I think it was the result of a consensus or "group think" - everybody agreed about the basics and so acted in concert without needing to deliberately plan or co-ordinate anything. Another factor that contributed was more complicated. The distinction between communists and Russians was blurred, that it was easy to continue the suspicion and hostility even when the ideological cause of it was removed. Russians were "othered" during the communist years and remained under suspicion even after communism fell.A neocon/neoliberal/CIA plot all the way. — fishfry
They did so in the wrong way. The banner of free trade was pinned to the eternal search by capital for cheap labour. The irony of it is that the recipient countries didn't benefit all that much. In general, much of the wealth went to a minority of people who formed a new capitalist class in the recipient countries. It was actually a continuation of colonialism in a slightly different format.Other way 'round I think. Clinton and the neoliberals did spread prosperity around the world, at the expense of the manufacturing base of America. — fishfry
They seem to lack a sense of bargaining and deal-making. If you regard it as a competition with winners and losers, you have missed the point. It is of the essence that you allow the other side to make its profit.They just wanted to be friends, but the neocons only want war. — fishfry
Yes, "share their wealth" is a lazy way to put it. It already implies taking something away. But see last comment. But my point was not that I expected them to be overcome with generosity, more that it is not in the long-term interest of the wealthy (even of the moderately wealthy) to prevent others from becoming prosperous. It might mean somewhat lower profit margins, but it doesn't necessarily mean actually taking anything away that they already possess. Its like the argument that it doesn't pay to rip off your customers too much, because they won't come back if you do.Not sure I share your trust in the ability of our leaders to "spread the wealth around," as Obama put it. — fishfry
I must object to your phrasing. Nearly all work should be considered "real work". Every job that exists exists for a reason: modern society demands it. There is no reason to be classist, insulting people's occupations, because each performs a function considered necessary in some way. To think that tradesmen alone could recreate our civilization without academics or white-collar workers or even the creative types is absurd. Without further specialization of labor, they will only stumble upon new technology, not invent it. They will haphazardly pantomime, not coordinate. And without a culture to enjoy, how will they live?A nation of farmers would live a lot longer than a nation of comparative literature majors, I'm sure you agree. The trades are "real work." Tradesmen built the college buildings, they operate the plumbing and the electricity and haul the trash. Without them, the lotus eaters would not be able to function at all. — fishfry
You convinced me. Let's transfer the legally contracted debt of people who signed for it, to those who never took out that debt, never saw any of the money, and are busy working while the kids are partying it up in school.
— fishfry
That's not happening and nobody's planning it. — Vera Mont
$559 billion transferred from student borrowers to the taxpayers. — fishfry
I'm not going to disagree with you. But I think regarding it as a plot in the standard sense is not the best way to think about it. I think it was the result of a consensus or "group think" - everybody agreed about the basics and so acted in concert without needing to deliberately plan or co-ordinate anything. Another factor that contributed was more complicated. The distinction between communists and Russians was blurred, that it was easy to continue the suspicion and hostility even when the ideological cause of it was removed. Russians were "othered" during the communist years and remained under suspicion even after communism fell. — Ludwig V
They did so in the wrong way. The banner of free trade was pinned to the eternal search by capital for cheap labour. The irony of it is that the recipient countries didn't benefit all that much. In general, much of the wealth went to a minority of people who formed a new capitalist class in the recipient countries. It was actually a continuation of colonialism in a slightly different format. — Ludwig V
They seem to lack a sense of bargaining and deal-making. If you regard it as a competition with winners and losers, you have missed the point. It is of the essence that you allow the other side to make its profit. — Ludwig V
Yes, "share their wealth" is a lazy way to put it. It already implies taking something away. But see last comment. But my point was not that I expected them to be overcome with generosity, more that it is not in the long-term interest of the wealthy (even of the moderately wealthy) to prevent others from becoming prosperous. It might mean somewhat lower profit margins, but it doesn't necessarily mean actually taking anything away that they already possess. Its like the argument that it doesn't pay to rip off your customers too much, because they won't come back if you do. — Ludwig V
Student borrowers are taxpayers. The question is, which taxpayers are having to pay more? — Vera Mont
You say the working class; I say the high earners. — Vera Mont
Would it be so very terrible if people making over $400,000 a year (many of whom are in the money-lending business) had to pay a little more so that the children of orderlies and fish-packers could get an education? — Vera Mont
Yes. I've seen some analysis of this. The media told us it was about supporting the workers, but it wasn't. It was about supporting the economy. Actually, there was a real problem about that. In lockdown without support, businesses would have gone bankrupt. A difficult problem. But the solution didn't have to be so skewed.In the covid period, massive government spending went to the top tier of the economy, while main street got crushed. The $600 stimmy checks were all the middle class got. Was this massive transfer of wealth upward from the middle class to the elite just an accident? Or was it all a plan? A crisis that the big players didn't let go to waste. — fishfry
Yes, I've seen the reports about that. It's much the same picture in the UK and I'm sure elsewhere.The Top 1% of Americans Have Taken $50 Trillion From the Bottom 90%—And That’s Made the U.S. Less Secure — fishfry
The ancient Romans had it right. Bread and circuses. People do not live by bread alone.And without a culture to enjoy, how will they live? — finarfin
Yes, the labour market is a market. But like many others, it isn't a free market - meaning a willing buyer and a willing seller - meaning that both sides can walk away without a deal. Work is like fresh food - it can't be stored when it isn't needed. Roughly, if work means food and shelter, everyone needs work to-day for to-day. The other is social expectations. You don't find out the economic value of dust-An occupation's value to society is roughly related to its economic price, and the number of workers in that field. — finarfin
It's good to speak up for those who don't have a voice. But it is better if those who don't have a voice can have their own. But somehow, the system needs a balancing factor - a referee or arbiter, who is neutral. That's a valid position as well. Workers can be greedy, competitive, and self-interested just as much as capitalists - indeed, arguably, capitalism expects that.Does that mean I shouldn't be on the workers' side after all? — Vera Mont
I would prefer if Congress would pass a law to have high income earners fund college costs. — fishfry
So you'll probably get your wish: no matter how poor they are, educated people will be crippled with debt before they even get started.Both the Senate and the House have now passed a bill to block President Joe Biden’s student loan forgiveness program, which promises to cancel up to $20,000 of debt for millions of borrowers but has been held up by courts. CNN
In the UK, the student loan repayment scheme was predicated on the "graduate premium" - that is, the idea that students would earn more money with the degree than they would have done without it. That's what was supposed to fund the repayments. At the time (in the nineties) this idea had something to be said for it - though it was always clear that some students, for whatever reason, would not earn much, if any, premium. Now, graduates are expected to repay their student loans, and a mortgage and repayments for car, white goods, furniture and fittings and save for their pension, and the student premium has largely disappeared (partly because of the increase in the supply of graduates.) The company store seems almost benign by comparison.So you'll probably get your wish: no matter how poor they are, educated people will be crippled with debt before they even get started. — Vera Mont
I would prefer if Congress would pass a law to have high income earners fund college costs.
— fishfry
Well, who wouldn't? — Vera Mont
But Congress and Senate are protecting high earners - perhaps because they themselves are high earners?
Both the Senate and the House have now passed a bill to block President Joe Biden’s student loan forgiveness program, which promises to cancel up to $20,000 of debt for millions of borrowers but has been held up by courts. CNN
So you'll probably get your wish: no matter how poor they are, educated people will be crippled with debt before they even get started. — Vera Mont
I don't wish for poor kids to be deprived of an education. — fishfry
I don't wish for poor kids to be deprived of an education.
— fishfry
Only because you seem to be so vehemently against letting them off some of the accumulated compound interest on their student loans. — Vera Mont
And maybe because you seem hell-bent on putting an unfair burden of putative working class taxpayers. — Vera Mont
And thirdly, because you pretend that government is responsible for everything it cannot possibly control. — Vera Mont
And lastly, because you appear to have a peculiarly skewed view of the working class, even as you advocate for its supposed interest. — Vera Mont
...money is power — frank
How does knowledge gained by a teeny, weeny life-form on a teeny, weeny planet near the rim of an insignificant galaxy help the universe. Helps it to do what, that it could not do otherwise?Knowledge is power as it actually helps the universe. — chiknsld
If someone wanted to, they could use their knowledge to gain money, just remember where the power came from. — chiknsld
Example please?
— fishfry
Capital, the fetishistic worship thereof. — Vera Mont
True, I just meant that money is power during our time. In a feudal society, military prowess was power. Knowledge can be power in a theocracy or where statesmen rule. The character of the society dictates where the power-hungry put their energy. — frank
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