I love the idea.

But if there were two all-powerful beings, wouldn’t the power of one be a limit on the power of the other, so that there were no all-powerful beings?

And if a being could only make the perfect choice, would there ever be any option or choice to make? Wouldn’t that mean such beings had no reason to ever choose, as each “choice” was really just a seeking of the knowing the one way to act?

And if you didn’t already know the right way to act, knowing the perfect choice (as when you pause to consider options), how can you say you are all-knowing?

But that said, people are so damn intolerant, willing to act unreasonably, self-centered, and just plain hurtful, it’s worth thinking about how to change this without losing the real circumstances that beg us to tolerate differences, to be patient enough to find reasonableness, to consider others before ourselves and seek to help others instead of hurt them.

I wouldn’t change the world. If I could change myself, and we all could, this world could be good enough.

I am glad you love the idea. It's a pity that this can happen only in our imagination.

But if there were two all-powerful beings, wouldn’t the power of one be a limit on the power of the other, so that there were no all-powerful beings? — Fire Ologist

I could give each all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful being a unique omniverse with an infinite number of universes. I imagine this would prevent any conflicts between them.

And if a being could only make the perfect choice, would there ever be any option or choice to make? Wouldn’t that mean such beings had no reason to ever choose, as each “choice” was really just a seeking of the knowing the one way to act? — Fire Ologist

I don't know. I am not all-knowing so it is impossible for me to know what that is like in practice.

And if you didn’t already know the right way to act, knowing the perfect choice (as when you pause to consider options), how can you say you are all-knowing? — Fire Ologist

I imagine an all-knowing being does not need to ponder which choice to make.

But that said, people are so damn intolerant, willing to act unreasonably, self-centered, and just plain hurtful, it’s worth thinking about how to change this without losing the real circumstances that beg us to tolerate differences, to be patient enough to find reasonableness, to consider others before ourselves and seek to help others instead of hurt them. — Fire Ologist

Why are people the way they are? I think it is because of their genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Our choices arise out of the dynamic interactions of our genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. We are not free from these determinants.

I wouldn’t change the world. If I could change myself, and we all could, this world could be good enough. — Fire Ologist

You can change yourself. We all change as we age. We learn new skills, we learn from mistakes, etc.

I'm very modest: I imagine that earlier today I purchased tomorrow night's sole winning lottery ticket. :wink:

Hope you win. Good luck!

I would prevent the existence of the universe (or universes if there is more than one) as that would prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. — Truth Seeker

How do you know that all of the universe is like our little shit hole corner of it?

I would bring into existence an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who always make perfect choices instead of fallible organisms such as ourselves who make mistakes, suffer and die. — Truth Seeker

Your god syndrome and alpha macho ego are definitely on show hare. :rofl:

How do you know that all of the universe is like our little shit hole corner of it? — Sir2u

I don't know. I didn't claim to be all-knowing. I am going by what I have observed on Earth.

Your god syndrome and alpha macho ego are definitely on show hare. — Sir2u

I am merely exercising my imagination, nothing more.

Let's imagine that members of this forum can magically change the past. What would you change? — Truth Seeker

I would tell myself not to read this OP.

( :wink: )

I very much like your argument. Who would want to play Monopoly if every game were the same? I thrill at the possibility that things could be different and I might effect that difference and nothing is more fun than reading a different point of view that gives me a better sense of meaning than I had before.

The bottom line is I pretty much like life as it is, but I would love to go back in history and change history, putting all of us on a different projector. Such as, what would happen if Abraham and his followers had never settled and remained nomadic herders? What if Athens had the power of Rome and Rome did not have military power? Or what if the Native Americans had been able to keep their land and the only way Europeans could live in America was to conform to the way of the Iroquois Confederacy? What if the US did not take Britain's side in WWI?

Why are people the way they are? — Truth Seeker

In part because of their stories. If we lived with Greek gods or a creator who didn't have favorites nor an evil counterpart, we would be different from people who believe there is only one god and that they can know the will of that god, who is always in favor of what they want. A god who expects them to kill for what they believe is rightly theirs. A god who justifies their wars with the belief it is the other who is evil and so it is God's will that be exterminated the others.

Maybe God wills that for you, so you must buy lottery tickets because that is what God wants you to do.

The bottom line is I pretty much like life as it is — Athena

You would not say that if you had my genes, my environments from conception to the present, my nutrients from conception to the present, and my experiences from the womb to the present. I hate life the way it has been and is. The world has been and continues to be full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths.

I am not convinced that God or Gods exist. Are you convinced that God or Gods exist? If so, which God or Gods exist? How do you know this?

I am not convinced that God or Gods exist. Are you convinced that God or Gods exist? If so, which God or Gods exist? How do you know this? — Truth Seeker

I like life as it is because there is so much to change and we have the potential to make that change. Let us play with the understanding of God.

Christians carry the Greek understandings of logos, reason, the controlling force of the universe, and the trinity of God, Father Son, and Holy Ghost.

The Greeks began with Egyptian concepts of gods and the Egyptian trinity of our being. When we die one part of the trinity dies with the body. A second part of the trinity is judged and may or may not enter the good afterlife, depending on the weight of our hearts. :grin: We need to be light-hearted. The last part returns to the source, no matter what. Understanding Eastern thinking is very important to our understanding.

Chardin, a Catholic priest who was sent to China, learned from the East. He explained, "God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man." We are God's consciousness. We do not question the notion that we must have brains to think, but oddly we think a God can think without a brain. Of what could such a god think? We get this when we deified Jesus. Jews acknowledged our lives can not be known without the physical experience of being humans. What follows that understanding is a deified man. The big problem here is the need to stick with one god. To Constantine's horror, Christians started killing each other over the problem of the trinity being 3 gods or 1. In Latin, there was no word for a trinity of one God so they had to invent a word to explain the trinity of God before the Christians could stop killing each other.

The trinity of God externalizes God and the trinity of humans internalizes God. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

I know what I know because of a lifetime of seeking knowledge and in my old age, I realize most of our disagreements are about perspective. When we do not know a concept, we can not think about it. By trying to learn of God by attempting to know all beliefs, I have a very wide perspective. Whereas a Jew, Christian or Muslim will have a very small perspective. A few religious people attempt to know more than their holy book, but not the mass of religious humans.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. So, are you a deist or a polytheist or a pantheist or a panentheist? I am an agnostic about the existence and nature of all Gods.

Maybe ...

I don't know. I didn't claim to be all-knowing. I am going by what I have observed on Earth. — Truth Seeker

Strange that you would destroy what could be trillions of millions of possible life forms based on what little you know about the earth.

I am merely exercising my imagination, nothing more. — Truth Seeker

But doing so after possibly killing off a lot of beings just like that without even knowing.

You would not say that if you had my genes, my environments from conception to the present, my nutrients from conception to the present, and my experiences from the womb to the present. I hate life the way it has been and is. The world has been and continues to be full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. — Truth Seeker

Misery loves its own company.
It is easy now to see why your imagination creates the scenes you describe above. You appear to be suffering from "The world fucked poor lil'ol me" syndrome. With a side of "Only I know what I am suffering" complex thrown in.

I have no idea about your life nor what you are suffering from, but I am willing to bet that I know people with even worse luck in the lottery of life. And some of them will never have the opportunity to go online to complain in a philosophy forum.

Most of us I believe spend some of our time here on earth wondering "what if". It is a wicked waste of time and torture to our brains. All it does is make us feel miserable about things we did wrong but cannot change.

The saddest words of tongue or pen: it might have been.

Strange that you would destroy what could be trillions of millions of possible life forms based on what little you know about the earth. — Sir2u

I would not be destroying anything. I would be preventing. For something to be destroyed, it must first exist. You can't destroy something nonexistent.

But doing so after possibly killing off a lot of beings just like that without even knowing. — Sir2u

Again, I am preventing the existence of those who suffer and die and instead creating those who are all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful so that they will never suffer and die. No one is being killed. By your logic, every sperm and every egg that does not become a baby is the same as a baby being killed. Should I arrest all the sperm producers and egg producers for preventing the existence of babies by not having sex without contraception constantly? Of course not.

I didn't ask to be born. I wish I never existed.

Misery loves its own company.
It is easy now to see why your imagination creates the scenes you describe above. You appear to be suffering from "The world fucked poor lil'ol me" syndrome. With a side of "Only I know what I am suffering" complex thrown in. — Sir2u

It is completely true that only I know what it is like to be me. No one else lives in my body. No one else has my genes, my environments from conception to the present, my nutrients from conception to the present, my experiences from the womb to the present. The same goes for all living things. Only you know what it is like to be you.

I have no idea about your life nor what you are suffering from, but I am willing to bet that I know people with even worse luck in the lottery of life. And some of them will never have the opportunity to go online to complain in a philosophy forum. — Sir2u

I have been suffering from CPTSD since 17 December 1982, Bipolar Disorder since 29 September 1997 and chronic nerve pain since 21 August 2008. I am on various medications but they are not very effective. I was kidnapped when I was 4 years and 5 months old. I almost died by drowning when I was 4 years and 9 months old. I was raped when I was 5 years and 9 months old. I watched people murder each other when I was 8 years old. I was beaten regularly by my Mum from my earliest memories (age 4) to 15 years old. I was beaten regularly at school by my teachers. Six of my relatives were murdered. My best friend was also murdered. When I was 9 years and 7 months old my younger brother died at the age of only 8 days due to doctor's errors. When I was 13 years and 8 months old my favourite uncle died due to an anaesthetist's error. My uncle was only 28 years old and had just gotten married. When I was 12 years and 10 months old, I experienced a cyclone that killed 138,866 people.

How would you calculate who has worse luck? I didn't claim to have had the worst luck. I have reviewed Earth's history. It is full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. 99.9% of all the species to evolve on Earth so far are already extinct and the remaining 0.1% will likely go extinct within the next 5 billion years. I think the luckiest are those who never existed.

Most of us I believe spend some of our time here on earth wondering "what if". It is a wicked waste of time and torture to our brains. All it does is make us feel miserable about things we did wrong but cannot change. — Sir2u

I am not torturing my brain wondering about What If scenarios. I like exercising my imagination. I have saved and improved many lives by volunteering, donating blood, food, water, money, clothes, etc. and working in the health and social care sector. I have also saved and improved lives by going vegan 18 years ago. I am profoundly sad about the fact that all the lives I have saved and improved are temporary. Sooner or later, they are all going to suffer and die. I long to make all living things (including the dead ones and the never-born ones) forever happy but I can't. Making an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings and giving each of them an exclusive omniverse containing an infinite number of universes for free is my ideal world where there is no suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. It's a pity that I can't take it out of my imagination and make it real.

What does your ideal world look like? How would you prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths?

I would not be destroying anything. I would be preventing. For something to be destroyed, it must first exist. You can't destroy something nonexistent. — Truth Seeker

By not letting it exist you are destroying its potential, even if it is only in your head.

Again, I am preventing the existence of those who suffer and die — Truth Seeker

What right do you think you have to do this? Whether you believe in a godly creation or in evolution, suffering is a part of life.

instead creating those who are all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful so that they will never suffer and die. — Truth Seeker

Do you think that a bunch of god like creatures would not suffer? Have you no idea about the effects of boredom? Something that is all knowing has no motivation to learn nor experience new things. Something that is all powerful never knows a challenge.
What the hell would they do with their eternal lives?

I have been suffering from CPTSD since 17 December 1982, Bipolar Disorder since 29 September 1997 and chronic nerve pain since 21 August 2008. I am on various medications but they are not very effective. I was kidnapped when I was 4 years and 5 months old. I almost died by drowning when I was 4 years and 9 months old. I was raped when I was 5 years and 9 months old. I watched people murder each other when I was 8 years old. I was beaten regularly by my Mum from my earliest memories (age 4) to 15 years old. I was beaten regularly at school by my teachers. Six of my relatives were murdered. My best friend was also murdered. When I was 9 years and 7 months old my younger brother died at the age of only 8 days due to doctor's errors. When I was 13 years and 8 months old my favourite uncle died due to an anaesthetist's error. My uncle was only 28 years old and had just gotten married. When I was 12 years and 10 months old, I experienced a cyclone that killed 138,866 people. — Truth Seeker

So at a quick guess I would say that you are about 44 years old, live or lived in Bangladesh or India, have an extremely good memory and have had a lot of bad shit happen to you.

Whilst I admit that I have not experienced the personal abuse you were subjected to and are probably the reason you think as you do, I have not had an easy life either.

Without going into any really personal problems:
I have had several close friends that have died, in accidents, by sickness( three to COVID) or murdered. And also three by suicide.
I live in a country that was for years the most deadly country in the world, in a space of two blocks in each direction from my house we had a total of eight murders in less that six months.
I have experienced several hurricanes that might not have left as quite as many dead as the one you mention, but left wide spread and devastating damage to the place I live. I have experienced several severe earthquakes that have done serious damage to the place I live, one of which almost destroyed my home.

But after all of this, and knowing that many are suffering in this world, I do not think for even a minute that I would wish to to change the universe because I am pissed of with it.

What right do you think you have to do this? Whether you believe in a godly creation or in evolution, suffering is a part of life. — Sir2u

I am so sorry for all your suffering and loss. Two of my friends with Bipolar Disorder took their own lives as the illness is so hard to live with. Many of my relatives have died from illnesses and accidents. This is not a competition on who has suffered more. Suffering is subjective so it is impossible to compare it. For example, I am in constant pain. I have a friend who is also in constant pain. How would we know whose pain is greater given the fact that only I can feel my pain and only he can feel his pain?

By not letting it exist you are destroying its potential, even if it is only in your head. — Sir2u

That's true but I am also creating an infinitely greater potential by creating an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who each get an omniverse containing an infinite number of universes for free. It's like losing trillions of dollars to gain an infinite amount of dollars. So, the gain infinitely outweighs the loss.

What right do you think you have to do this? Whether you believe in a godly creation or in evolution, suffering is a part of life. — Sir2u

I have more than a right, I have a duty to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. If you had a Natural Disaster Preventing Machine would you not use it to prevent all cyclones, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, droughts, landslides, etc.? I certainly would.

I want to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths because these things are so awful. We live in a horrific and unjust world. I was born in Bangladesh and lived there most of my life. I don't understand why you would not want to prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths. Surely, it is better to have beings who never suffer and die than beings who suffer and die? We all prevent the existence of babies by not having sex without contraceptives constantly. What right do we have to destroy the potential lives of billions of babies? Yet we are doing it every second. This is not even an imaginary event. This is actually happening every second all over the Earth.

Do you think that a bunch of god like creatures would not suffer? Have you no idea about the effects of boredom? Something that is all knowing has no motivation to learn nor experience new things. Something that is all powerful never knows a challenge.
What the hell would they do with their eternal lives? — Sir2u

All-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful beings would be able to keep themselves from being bored using their abilities. For example, I draw pictures, write stories and poems and play musical instruments, etc. I could do so much more if I were all-knowing and all-powerful. I would be able to draw an infinite number of pictures, write an infinite number of stories and poems and play an infinite number of musical instruments, etc. Why would something need to be challenging to be enjoyable? I enjoy lots of things that are not in the slightest challenging e.g. getting a massage or eating vegan ice-creams.

You didn't answer the questions I asked you in the previous post. Is that because you don't know the answers or don't want to answer my questions? In either case, I wish you all the best.

I am so sorry for all your suffering and loss. Two of my friends with Bipolar Disorder took their own lives as the illness is so hard to live with. Many of my relatives have died from illnesses and accidents. This is not a competition on who has suffered more. — Truth Seeker

I did not give this information as a way to get sympathy or brag, but as an example that you are not alone in your suffering. I could go on about other problems I have, but I won't because I still consider myself to be a very lucky person compared to many others I know. I presume your motives for listing your woes were for similar purposes.

You didn't answer the questions I asked you in the previous post. Is that because you don't know the answers or don't want to answer my questions? — Truth Seeker

If these are the questions you refer to then I must have missed them.

What does your ideal world look like? How would you prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and deaths? — Truth Seeker

Because I don't think that your small picture of the world is adequate to work on as we do not know the rest of the universe and there might be millions of the creatures you describe out there already, my ideal universe is a place where nature and her laws do what they are there to do.
If it takes millions or billions of years for nature to develop worlds that can be populated with the beings you so desire then millions or billions of years will have to pass. But it is doubtful that it will ever happen.
To create the beings you want, you would have to start with a fully formed universe that is the perfect place for them to live. Is a static universe even possible? It would have to be, or they would be forced to fight with the laws of nature and physics. It would be impossible for them to live on a world with anything but a perfect climate. Or would their all-powerfulness make it possible for them to sustain the lives of stars indefinitely?

All-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful beings would be able to keep themselves from being bored using their abilities. For example, I draw pictures, write stories and poems and play musical instruments, etc. I could do so much more if I were all-knowing and all-powerful. I would be able to draw an infinite number of pictures, write an infinite number of stories and poems and play an infinite number of musical instruments, etc. — Truth Seeker

I am pretty sure that if you ask most artists about the satisfaction they get from their drawings, musical instruments, poems and stories, they will say that it is from the creative part of the process that leads to the final attaining of the ability to do something well. All-knowing beings would miss out on that.
The other part of their satisfaction comes from the acceptance and happiness brought about in others reception/perception of their art, in a place where everyone can do just as good as you that would also not happen.

They would not even be able to paint the changing of the seasons or design clothes for each of them. I would not wish an eternity of that on my worst enemies.

I did not give this information as a way to get sympathy or brag, but as an example that you are not alone in your suffering. I could go on about other problems I have, but I won't because I still consider myself to be a very lucky person compared to many others I know. I presume your motives for listing your woes were for similar purposes. — Sir2u

I understand your motive. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I listed my experiences because, in your first reply to me, you said: "I have no idea about your life nor what you are suffering from, but I am willing to bet that I know people with even worse luck in the lottery of life." I asked you in my first reply to you: "How would you calculate who has worse luck?" I think you must not have noticed this question as you haven't answered it yet. I have had my share of both good and bad luck. Our lives have both positives and negatives. So far in my life, I have experienced more negatives than positives.

Thank you for answering my last two questions from my first reply to you. All-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings don't actually exist and will never actually exist. I am merely imagining such beings for fun. You are taking it far too seriously. This is a fictional scenario.

Because I don't think that your small picture of the world is adequate to work on as we do not know the rest of the universe and there might be millions of the creatures you describe out there already, my ideal universe is a place where nature and her laws do what they are there to do.
If it takes millions or billions of years for nature to develop worlds that can be populated with the beings you so desire then millions or billions of years will have to pass. But it is doubtful that it will ever happen.
To create the beings you want, you would have to start with a fully formed universe that is the perfect place for them to live. Is a static universe even possible? It would have to be, or they would be forced to fight with the laws of nature and physics. It would be impossible for them to live on a world with anything but a perfect climate. Or would their all-powerfulness make it possible for them to sustain the lives of stars indefinitely? — Sir2u

I accept your ideal universe. Do you accept my ideal reality which consists of an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who each own an omniverse containing an infinite number of universes? To create these beings all I need to do is imagine them. We are talking about a fictional scenario. In my universes, I can make whatever I imagine as soon as I imagine them. This includes imaginary laws of physics and stars that burn forever.

I am pretty sure that if you ask most artists about the satisfaction they get from their drawings, musical instruments, poems and stories, they will say that it is from the creative part of the process that leads to the final attaining of the ability to do something well. All-knowing beings would miss out on that. — Sir2u

I agree with you partially. All-knowing beings would miss out on the learning process, but they won't miss out on the enjoyment the acts of drawing, writing and playing musical instruments bring.

The other part of their satisfaction comes from the acceptance and happiness brought about in others reception/perception of their art, in a place where everyone can do just as good as you that would also not happen. — Sir2u

Just because someone else can do something as well as you can it does not mean that they can't enjoy your work and you can't enjoy creating and performing. I do improvised comedy with other people who are equally good at it. We enjoy each other's performances. The same goes for all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful creators and performers.

They would not even be able to paint the changing of the seasons or design clothes for each of them. I would not wish an eternity of that on my worst enemies. — Sir2u

Yes, they would be able to paint the changing of the seasons and design clothes for each of them. They are all-knowing and all-powerful. Such tasks would pose no difficulty for them. In fact, no task would pose any difficulty for them - that's what makes it so great! Unlike you, I would love to be one of an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who each own an omniverse containing an infinite number of universes. It's my idea of heaven!

You and I have very different ideas and that's totally fine. We are all products of our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences so it makes sense that we have very different ideas. I didn't ask you or anyone else to agree with me about anything. This thread is called "Changing the past in our imagination" because I posted it as an exercise for our imagination. It's supposed to be a fun thread where everyone can imagine whatever they want!

I asked you in my first reply to you: "How would you calculate who has worse luck?" I think you must not have noticed this question as you haven't answered it yet. — Truth Seeker

There is no answer to that question, that is why I did not answer it.

All-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings don't actually exist and will never actually exist. I am merely imagining such beings for fun. You are taking it far too seriously. This is a fictional scenario. — Truth Seeker

I am not taking seriously at all the scenes you paint. It is more than obvious that it is fictional. But the reasons you are giving for creating them should be taken seriously. I have found that, usually, the wilder the fantasy the more serious the cause.

Do you accept my ideal reality which consists of an infinite number of all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful beings who each own an omniverse containing an infinite number of universes? — Truth Seeker

Your fantasy reality is as good as any other of the same genre, but I would not try writing a book about it. And acceptance of your fantasy by me is of no consequence at all, if it makes you happy.

Personally, if I were to invent a universe because I did not like the one I was in, I would invent one that had solutions to the problems that were workable instead of making one where it is impossible for them to exist.

It's supposed to be a fun thread where everyone can imagine whatever they want! — Truth Seeker

Things cannot be sooooo bad then, if you can find enjoyment in the little things. :wink:

I am not taking seriously at all the scenes you paint. It is more than obvious that it is fictional. But the reasons you are giving for creating them should be taken seriously. I have found that, usually, the wilder the fantasy the more serious the cause. — Sir2u

Glad to hear it. The reason for my fantasy is that the world is full of suffering, inequality, injustice, and death. Inequality, injustice, and death have been around ever since life evolved on Earth 3.7 billion years ago. Suffering was added when sentient life evolved.

Personally, if I were to invent a universe because I did not like the one I was in, I would invent one that had solutions to the problems that were workable instead of making one where it is impossible for them to exist. — Sir2u

It sounds like you prefer hard science fiction to soft science fiction. I prefer soft science fiction because it is limitless.

Things cannot be sooooo bad then, if you can find enjoyment in the little things. :wink: — Sir2u

My chronic pains (neuralgia and joint pains) are always there. My sciatica pain is intermittent. I get flashbacks most days, intrusive thoughts many times a day, and nightmares every time I sleep. My mood fluctuates frequently. I am depressed many more times than I am manic. Here is a mood scale I use to monitor myself:

+5: Total loss of judgement, exorbitant spending, religious delusions or hallucinations.
+4: Lost touch with reality, incoherent, no sleep, paranoid and vindictive, reckless behaviour.
+3: Inflated self-esteem, rapid thoughts and speech, counter-productive simultaneous tasks.
+2: Very productive, everything to excess, charming and talkative.
+1: Self-esteem good, optimistic, sociable and articulate, good decisions and get work done.
0: Mood in balance, no symptoms of depression or mania.
-1: Slight withdrawal from social situations, concentration less than usual, slight agitation.
-2: Feeling of panic and anxiety, concentration difficult and memory poor, some comfort in routine.
-3: Slow thinking, no appetite, need to be alone, sleep excessive or difficult, everything a struggle.
-4: Feeling of hopelessness and guilt, thoughts of suicide, little movement, impossible to do anything.
-5: Endless suicidal thoughts, no way out, no movement, everything is bleak and it will always be like this.

Right now I am at -1 but it will change. I was at -3 two days ago. I am on a mood roller coaster I can't get off. Words don't do Bipolar Disorder justice. Reading about what it is like is very different from experiencing it for many years. Things could be infinitely worse or infinitely better. I am most grateful that it is not infinitely worse.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. So, are you a deist or a polytheist or a pantheist or a panentheist? I am an agnostic about the existence and nature of all Gods. — Truth Seeker

I am sure the story of the creation of Adam and Eve should not be understood literally. It is most likely a plagiarized Sumerian story about a river that flooded and was dying until the Goddess causing him to die changed her mind and another goddess healed him. Then the river asked for help staying in its banks and a goddess used mud to create a man and woman and breathed life into them. Abraham and his people lived in the Sumerian city of Ur before starting their trek to Egypt.

I am sure the Biblical god is a tribal god and a story of a god leading people to promised land is not unique to the Hebrews. Believing a place is sacred is not unique to Hebrews. Believing people can be favored by a god is offensive and a false justification for wars.

I believe the universe follows laws that can not be broken and this fact does not depend on a god. Surely not a god that is like a human as Zeus and the God of Abraham are very human.

I agree that many of the stories in the Bible are plagiarised. All religions were made up by people.

So we agree religions are made up by people, but we are at a cross road that demands a new story. For more and more people it is impossible to become a member of a religious group because given what we know today, it is impossible to see truth in the religion. What can unite us and give us social agreements, when religion fails to do this for a growing number of people?

How about https://humanists.international ?

I am listing to a professor's lectures on the Renaissance and Reformation, times of big changes. I think we come to another period of big changes. Is there anything from the past that might help us today?

Fantasies are helpful in creating the future. What would have happened if there was no Renaissance? What if Martin Luther had not caused the loss of Catholic authority and a new way of seeing the Bible?

I bookmarked that site. It is something I want to look into. I think I would very much like to join like-minded people in an organized manner. The social function of the church is very important. For all of us who can not go that route, we need a choice that serves that social function but is compatible with what we believe.

A huge benefit would be ending the Christian myth that we need a supernatural power to think and do good.