• TigerFan98
    5
    This is a question I thought of surrounding the problem of other minds (Given that I can only observe the behavior of others, how can I know that others have minds?)

    Should someone who is very famous conclude they are likely the center of a simulation (In a simulation where there are few, if any other actual minds)? The question for this individual would be independent of whether or not this person is actually the center of a simulated world. The question is what they should conclude is most likely to be true.

    Just for illustrative purposes, I’ll assume Bill Gates is currently the most famous/highest name recognition person in the world. In a world made entirely of other conscious minds, probabilities apply (there would be roughly a 1 in 8 billion chance of becoming the most famous person in the world). If one is the center of a simulation (where they are the only or one of few conscious minds and others are essentially “non playable characters”), then the chance of becoming the most famous person in the world is unknown. Thus, it seems rational from Bill’s perspective to conclude he is not in the outcome that would require nearly insurmountable odds (1 in 8 billion) to be true.

    I recognize there’s the law of inevitability – Someone must be the most famous person. I also recognize that if a world is in fact comprised of other minds, not famous people looking at Bill have no reason to think he’s the center of a simulation. All the not famous people would have access to their own conscious experience. But for Bill Gates himself, considering the problem of other minds – Should he conclude he is more than likely simulated – That he became famous because he’s the center of a simulation (as opposed to stumbling into an incredibly unlikely outcome). The question for Bill would be independent of whether or not he is actually the center of a simulated world. The question is what he should conclude is most likely to be true.

    The answer may hinge around this - Should we conclude we have absolutely zero knowledge of why a simulator would create/simulate a mind? Or should we conclude we have little, yet likely a non-zero amount of knowledge about why a simulator would create/simulate a mind. One would derive this information from thinking about what type of person they would find it interesting/worthwhile to simulate. One could think about what they do simulating nonconscious characters in a video game. I haven’t played “The Sims” video games series since the early days, but I think in newer versions you can pick careers for your character. It seems like most people playing the game (including myself) would try to make their Sim character have an “outlier” outcome to make things more interesting. For example, they might have their Sim run for president of the country. This would be opposed to much more common outcomes- for example, simulating a middle-class accountant who is not famous.

    Note – I recognize there are an infinite number of outcome distributions one could look at. But being the most famous person in the world is what I would refer to as a “seemingly intuitively significant outcome”. As in it intuitively feels that being the most famous person in the world is more “noteworthy” than, for example, say, having the oldest living tree in the world in your yard.
  • Joshs
    5.8k
    This is a question I thought of surrounding the problem of other minds (Given that I can only observe the behavior of others, how can I know that others have minds?)TigerFan98

    First of all, we only know what a mind or self or subject is in the first place because we already find ourselves immersed in a world that is ‘outside’. There are many spheres of outsideness. Our memories belong to the most intimate sphere of outsideness. our bodily sensations are a next closest sphere of the outside. A further outside comprise the inanimate objects we interact with, and the furthest outside belongs to intelligent creatures who behave i. ways that are unpredictable. If we have never encountered another mind, then we don’t yet have a concept of ourselves as a mind . We may view our ‘self’ instead in animistic terms.

    But given that your question assumes that we understand the concept of a mind, determining that another has a mind involves distinguishing their behavior from that of an inanimate object or a programmed machine. is there any foolproof way of doing this? I would think not. All we have to go on is our pragmatic trial and error explorations of their unfolding responses to our interactions with them. And what are we looking for? I would assume here that what distinguishes a machine simulation from the behavior of a living system is that the actions of the former eventually form a predicable pattern. If we never reach the point in our dealings with an unknown entity where they cease to surprise us, then I would say that for all practical purposes we can say that they have a mind.
  • TigerFan98
    5
    Thanks for your reply Joshs. I think you make some really good points. I would agree that there is a lot of ambiguity in regards to what is and what is not a mind. Maybe I should be asking - Should a famous person conclude it's more likely than not that they are at the center of a simulation because they are famous? That the outcome of being famous is evidence that others are not conscious at all.

    I'm very open to holes being poked in this being a relevant illustration but I often think of the core question of mine in terms of this scenario. Imagine someone said they shuffled a deck of cards numbered 1, 2, 3,...all the way up to 1 billion. You then draw a card from the top of the deck and get the card with number 1 on it. It seems like the person should assume something happened, it intuitively feels like getting card numbered 1 is significant. At the same time there was a 1 in 1 billion chance of getting any card. Should the person who draws card numbered 1 assume something is going on (someone forgot to shuffle the cards, someone is playing a joke on them, etc.)
  • Lionino
    2.7k
    If we are indeed in a simulation, and even if Bill Gates is the only playable character, there is no reason for him to think the simulation would make him famous by design.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    this is an entirely fatuous OP.
  • Barkon
    163
    In my opinion there are no non conscious, everything has a consc, but consc types vary; someone may be 1/16 quantum, others may be 1/1 quantum and there could be other types other than quantum(or as you would term 'real', instead of quantum, but I find quantum a better term because something that is, improperly defined as unreal, if existent, is also real, so this real/unreal logic doesn't work - the correct term is Quantum.)

    The root of a simulation isn't meant to be easy to sum, so I would say we have not accumulated the knowledge required to understand why minds were created by a simulator.

    Plus I don't really believe in a 'simulator', I believe in rational simulation. It is just an element of existence. It's almost as if it's all as it seems('real', or whatever) but there is logical simulation occuring(such as the mass of far away stars only 'load in' when we're close to them and from Earth they are simulated with miniscule mass).

    Fame is not necessarily an indicator of center.
  • Lionino
    2.7k
    this is an entirely fatuous OP.Wayfarer

    I had to look that word up. But there are worse threads on the frontpage right now, honestly.

    In my opinion there are no non conscious, everything has a consc, but consc types vary; someone may be 1/16 quantum, others may be 1/1 quantum and there could be other types other than quantum(or as you would term 'real', instead of quantum, but I find quantum a better term because something that is, improperly defined as unreal, if existent, is also real, so this real/unreal logic doesn't work - the correct term is Quantum.)Barkon

    Fatuous schizophrenia.
  • Barkon
    163
    no, that would be you.

    Well, what am I supposed to accept.

    People are non conscious?
    All consc is the same?

    This sounds absurd. You're likely the true schizophrenic.
  • TigerFan98
    5
    Appreciated reading your response!
  • TigerFan98
    5
    Thanks for your post! "Fame is not necessarily an indicator of center" is a great response because I think it gets further to the heart of the philosophical question here. The key word to me is "necessarily". I agree it's not necessarily an indicator of being at the center of a simulation.

    What would be the appropriate conclusion if someone thinks there's just a slight chance that fame indicates one is the center of a simulation? There is a 7,999,999,999 in 8,000,000,000 chance a person would not be the most famous person in the world if they are not the center of a simulation (99.9999999875%). Would the most famous person have to be at least 99.9999999875% sure that fame is not an indicator of being at the center of a simulation? If they can't get to that confidence level (which seems inevitable), would they then have to accept it's more likely than not they are the center of a simulation?

    I'm thinking there is a hole to poke in that logic but I can't pinpoint what it is.
  • Outlander
    2.2k
    A fun thread. Possibly more Lounge material but interestingly similar to something I discussed with others before.

    I believe it was called "Royal madness" or "King's disease" where a ruler who seemingly has no struggle, challenge, or any of the normal hardhship or monotony that reminds us we are human begins to think one of the following:

    - He's not real (whether he died or went to an after life where he is being rewarded or perhaps in some sort of coma or dream

    - Nothing else is real (similar to the cases above, seeing as any item or experience that is known to exist can be presented to him nearly immediately without question, also by the fact a monarchs' Will becomes the highest Law, he might begin to notice things that exist only in his mind seeming to manifest in the world around him without his "saying" or "doing" leading one to believe in the possibility he is in fact in some sort of simulation, this is the most powerful of the "symptoms")

    Not dissimilar to something like this:
    Reveal


    However to remind you as a valued newcomer of the rules of engagement one might call them, do check out this thread when you have a moment. Doing so ensures you make the most of your time here as well as that of others. Cheers. :smile:
  • TigerFan98
    5
    Thank you for the response! That is very interesting how similar that "King's Disease" discussion sounds! Did you have any thoughts about whether that logic was correct or not? If so - Would you mind sharing with me?

    I read through the rules of engagement after you shared the thread with me. Thanks for sending that. One of the things I could have done better is presented the question in a more interesting/relevant context. For instance, posting about the Doomsday Argument (The flavor that uses birth rank, not years the earth has existed) probably would have been more relevant, while asking a similar philosophical question (as the premise of the Doomsday Argument is that we should assume we are not in an outlier outcome).

    Video : Nick Bostrom on Doomsday Argument (In respect to birth rank) https://closertotruth.com/video/bosni-006/

    Lastly, I appreciate you being kind about the shortcomings of my post and still engaging with it.

    Hopefully some of the context I've added has tightened up the question

    Thanks!
  • EdwardC
    30
    To answer your question:

    No, but most will
  • Igitur
    74
    I think it is also true that from anyone's perspective, they are at the center of any hypothetical simulation. (Unless you guys experience something very different.) Pointless to affirm this, of course.

    This all begs the question: why make the person in the simulation famous? (assuming the creators have some control). I think it would probably be more useful to put the simulated mind in positions where they make important decisions, but are not necessarily famous, assuming that the creators of a hypothetical simulation want to learn something about the subject.
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