I would never assume we are in a position to know who the philosopher is as a person. All we have is a text and the text is a fecund vehicle for alternative interpretations. But I recognize that old school criticism would have it that the artist and their life is the context of a work when fully understood. I think this has limited application and is subject to many flights of psychologizing fancy.

Do you agree that the philosopher must uphold, almost, a fiduciary duty towards the public, in terms of living a certain life? — Shawn

I assume most people (philosophers or not) are flawed and limited beings - so no.

But I recognize that old school criticism would have it that the artist and their life is the context of a work when fully understood. I think this has limited application and is subject to many flights of psychologizing fancy. — Tom Storm

So, goes it. Heidegger just lost the game if you're right. Then again, had the victor had their ways as spoke Thrasymachus, then he would have been idolized by everyone nowadays. Strange counterfactual, eh?

What do you mean about the "psychologizing fancy" part?

Do you agree that the philosopher must uphold, almost, a fiduciary duty towards the public, in terms of living a certain life? — Shawn

I think it depends on their philosophy.

What do you mean about the "psychologizing fancy" part? — Shawn

Just the tendency of some people (even biographers) to think they can explain a thinker's work based on their imagining of a writer's psychological state. Conjecture. Or even the claim that they know what a writer intended based on the writer's (putative) psychological state. Whatever that means.

Heidegger just lost the game if you're right. — Shawn

Whether Heidegger was a Nazi or not (for me) may well taint our experience of his work, but it says little or nothing about whether the work is any good.

I think it depends on their philosophy. — Leontiskos

Can you specify what you mean by "their philosophy?"

Is this a reference to their narrative or system of thought or something else?

Just the tendency of some people (even biographers) to think they can explain a thinker's work based on their imagining of a writer's psychological state. Conjecture. Or even the claim that they know what a writer intended meaning based on the writer's (putative) psychological state. Whatever that means. — Tom Storm

But, philosophy isn't mathematics, in that it isn't self-evident. How do you counter that?

Can you specify what you mean by "their philosophy?" — Shawn

Their philosophy: the philosophy they do.

But, philosophy isn't mathematics, in that it isn't self-evident. How do you counter that? — Shawn

I have no idea what this comment means in relation to what I wrote.

I am not a fan of psychologizing the work of anyone, whether it is a philosopher or a movie actor.

If we threw away everything or better yet were forbidden by law to use anything invented or that came about as an invention by way of a person who's view we didn't share, well, that'd make for mighty simple living now wouldn't it? :grin:

Yes; but, people have psychologies.

Do you agree that the philosopher must uphold, almost, a fiduciary duty towards the public, in terms of living a certain life? — Shawn

No. Except where a philosopher proposes, in the e.g. Hellenic sense, 'philosophy as a way of life' (P. Hadot), I think a philosophy ought to be judged on the basis of its own merits/demerits like any other textual, formal or scientific artifact. How a philosopher lives may or may not be exemplary to us independent of – though there may be evident biographical influences on – her philosophy.

I don't see why you put Witty on a pedestal. It's well known that he was an awful person. How do you know he led such an "examined life"?

No. Except where a philosopher proposes, in the e.g. Hellenic sense, 'philosophy as a way of life' (P. Hadot) — 180 Proof

That's a good point.

Then there's the distaste for philosophers like Heidegger, who stands out for his personal life associated with Nazism. — Shawn

Distaste for Heidegger? You astound me.

He certainly was a stand out Nazi. Stood by them as well.

Do you agree that the philosopher must uphold, almost, a fiduciary duty towards the public, in terms of living a certain life? — Shawn

The kids who always talk about being fair and sharing," I recall him saying, "mostly just want you to be fair to them and share with them. — Davy

Do you agree that the philosopher must uphold, almost, a fiduciary duty towards the public, in terms of living a certain life? — Shawn

The public certainly seem to think that everyone in the public eye is expected to do that. Yet it is not clear to me that the public think that they should uphold the same standards. One might argue that people in the public eye are often role models for others and so have an additional responsibility to conform to a higher standard. But if that's so, everyone is in the eye of some of the public and is likely to be a role model for some people, so everyone has a similar responsibility.

I assume most people (philosophers or not) are flawed and limited beings — Tom Storm

And one would have thought that a certain level of tolerance and even forgiveness might be expected of the public - unless the public never sins.

All we have is a text and the text is a fecund vehicle for alternative interpretations. — Tom Storm

It certainly is. A biography is also subject to interpretation. It is probably a good idea to wait until it is over, but even then a final judgement is difficult to arrive at.

To give an example, take Socrates. His life and philosophy seemed inseparable. — Shawn

It's a good idea to remember always that Plato's account was more hagiography than biography.

Whether Heidegger was a Nazi or not (for me) may well taint our experience of his work, but it says little or nothing about whether the work is any good. — Tom Storm

The interesting question is what basis, if any, there is for Nazism in his philosophy. I don't think there is a determinate answer, but it is worrying.

I don't see why you put Witty on a pedestal. It's well known that he was an awful person. — Heracloitus

I agree. Yet he had friends. I don't think I could have been friends with him, and I don't suppose he would have wanted to be friends with me. I don't care either way, he is an amazing philosopher.

There are questions to be asked about the involvement of both Berkeley and Locke in the slave trade as well. In their case, there is a tricky issue about how far we pay attention to the context that they lived in. I don't suppose anyone is much bothered about whether Plato and Aristotle (or Socrates) owned slaves. Rousseau's life presents other issues.

:up:

Shawn, Your thread question may become moot if ever AI becomes refined/enhanced to the point of producing/remixing different philosophies into "original or apparently new" philosophic directions/ideas.
Such "creations" being seemingly closer than might be wanted by existing philosophers is one perspective. Denying that AI could ever have such capacity is another perspective.

Tom Storm,
If this analogy to your overall answer to Shawn's question is acceptable... play the ball, not the man... then.... agreed.

If this analogy to your overall answer to Shawn's question is acceptable... play the ball, not the man... then.... agreed. — kazan

Not sure I follow, can you clarify?

Surprised by your reaction. Merely agreeing that philosophic understanding is best served by examination of the expressed thoughts than guessing at the circumstances of philosophers' lives, much of which is conjecture from a later era.
Apologies, thought you may have seen a connection between ballsports having a process to purpose and philosophic processes.with purpose.

Sorry, perhaps "...interpreting from.."rather than "...guessing at..." is a better expression by way of explanation.

[reply="kazan;907493" Ok, now see I thought you were referring to an analogy I had made. The syntax confused me, not the idea. Yes.

Philosophers should practice what they preach.

Precisely because philosophy isn't a hard science, the philosopher themselves should act as a 'living proof' of the validity of their views and lead by example.

If they do not, then the philosophy should be looked upon with a degree of skepsis.