I agree; but, I am somewhat hesitant to believe that any government will want its population to start taking drugs to remedy boredom. — Shawn

Brave New World.

Regarding counterfactuals, and the doubt in your mind about these or some of these experiences, why is there so much glamourization of psychedelics? — Shawn

Why is there so much glamouraziation of overpriced cars, film performers, football players and Rocket launchings? People get excited about some really dumb stuff.

Why is there so much glamouraziation of overpriced cars, film performers, football players and Rocket launchings? People get excited about some really dumb stuff. — Vera Mont

If what you're saying is true, then is there any truth to gleaning into one's inner life through a drug? Based on what I am reading, I think these deeply personal experiences, may have significant meaning if not truth. Is this correct?

Why are intoxicants popular? Because they are a holiday from reality. I've found that cannabis makes the textures, colours and feelings of reality much more vivid. For instance I become more attuned to the subtleties of music. I still recall, 56 years later, the first moments of 'being high'. There was an excellent 1960's album playing (Super Session, for those who remember) and suddenly the high-hat came into crystalline focus. I could see the high-hat rythm, threaded perfectly through the tapestry of sounds.

Later in life I abandoned intoxicants generally - but not entirely. When I stayed in the US in 2022, there was a legal cannabis store nearby which sold edibles. Same old feeling. But I recognise the downsides. I know people who's maturity and development were adversely affected by cannabis, and I think it probably interfered with my own in some ways.

As regards LSD, I also had experiences with that in my youth - in fact, at the time it hadn't yet been made illegal. LSD can have massive downsides - bad trips and psychotic episodes are real dangers. But (and here I add I do not condone the taking of illegal substances) it also opens windows to dimensions of existence that will likely never otherwise be seen (although it's generally futile to try and explain it.)

Here's a never-quite-finished instrumental of mine, created in honor of Albert Hoffman, who first synthesised LSD in the 1940's, and who lived until aged 106 (good advertisement, I would have thought.) He had first-ever acid trip when he took a large dose of LSD in 1943 and then rode his bicycle through the streets of Basel.

 an impoverished spiritual life — Shawn

Clarify what you mean by this.

Marx could have been right about the substitution of drugs for religion...

Wtf, dude... :lol:

Brave New World. — Vera Mont

That book was banned, as is this website, @Wayfarer...

Clarify what you mean by this. — 180 Proof

What I mean is that since a very long time, monotheistic religions and other religious folk have dissuaded the lotus eaters or other drug users from gaining a voice about the aspect that drugs present to any person. Drugs, especially those in charge of their administration (such as shamans), have been in opposition to the clergy and priests narrative of a good life to be found in service of their creator and further salvation from the pains of the material world by worship of their creator and savior.

What more can I say?

The first book I read about - recall, this was 1969, the Summer of Love had just been brought to a ghastly end by the Manson Murders - was Timothy Leary's The Politics of Ecstacy. I re-visited it again years later, and it really doesn't hold up that well, neither does Leary's overall reputation. But it definitely had some flashes of genuine insight and some profound ideas.

As a baby-boomer, later in life I realised that the whole 60's thing had completely bypassed the next generations. It was like this window was briefly opened to a completely other dimension of existence/experience ('But first, are you experienced? Have you ever been experienced?'), but then closing again.

A great retro on many of the social issues:

Cults and Cosmic Consciousness, Camille Paglia

Also Storming Heaven: LSD and the American Dream, Jay Stevens - an excellent social history of LSD in American culture (circa late 1980's).

And if you never read them at the time, Theodore Roszak's The Making of a Counterculture and Where the Wasteland Ends (although they're a bit dated now.)

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that drug-taking is an attempt to fulfill a "spiritual" need? If so, what's this "spiritual need grasping for? And why isn't "spiritual" fulfillment just another form of futile ego-gratification (like e.g. overconsumption, status-seeking, addictive intoxication, etc)?

Thanks for the links. For quite a while I became interested in psychotronics, which the United States military was interested in for a while. The Army became interested in parascience and parapsychology for quite a while under the behest of the CIA, which did extensive studies into the practical applications of LSD and other psychedelics. MK-ULTRA is something you may have heard about. There are some chilling reports on YouTube about human experimentation under the Church Committee. Crazy times, the 60's.

There was a pretty good movie about psychotronics and all that other stuff the hippies were interested in:

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that drug-taking is an attempt to fulfill a "spiritual" need? — 180 Proof

Yes. Instead of going to mass on Sundays, some people might prefer to smoke a joint or do whatever recreational stuff certain drugs have to offer.

If so, what's this "spiritual need grasping for? — 180 Proof

It seems like one of those existential questions, that only experiences endowed with significance and meaning can address.

And why isn't "spiritual" fulfillment just another form of futile ego-gratification (like e.g. overconsumption, status-seeking, addictive intoxication, etc)? — 180 Proof

I don't think it is futile. Seems to me to be more in line with hard to understand or attain. Not everyone can become a guru or saint.

What this means in my opinion, is that people routinely fail at their own quest for purpose and edification in everyday living. Where this follows in my mind, is a life concerned with virtue and eudaimonia, which philosophy addresses the best. Drugs, seem like a distraction in this view.

Yes, I remember, 'the man who stared at goats'.

While I agree that there are definitely 'doors of perception' that can be opened, they don't all lead upwards.

Drugs, seem like a distraction — Shawn

So we agree on (this 'recreational' path of least effort) after all ...

... perhaps addictive intoxication (i.e. escape, distraction, self-anaesthetization) is the religion¹ of the masses. — 180 Proof

¹'ritual' path of least effort :sparkle:

Drugs, seem like a distraction
— Shawn
So we agree on (this 'recreational' path of least effort) after all ...
... perhaps addictive intoxication (i.e. escape, distraction, self-anaesthetization) is the religion of the masses.
— 180 Proof — 180 Proof

Yes; mostly. But, to every person there is a unique identifier to be held about what or even why (which psychology addresses) some things are desired to be distracted from. Non-trivial to address.

While I agree that there are definitely 'doors of perception' that can be opened, they don't all lead upwards. — Wayfarer

It's a chance, a risk to take. An experienced guide lessens the risk.

If what you're saying is true, then is there any truth to gleaning into one's inner life through a drug? Based on what I am reading, I think these deeply personal experiences, may have significant meaning if not truth. Is this correct? — Shawn

How should I know? They're not my experiences.

For those with the blues, then the blues matter. :cool:

An experienced guide lessens the risk. — Metaphysician Undercover

I never had one. In fact right up until the moment of my first experience with 'entheogens' (the polite name for hallucinogens) I swore I'd never do it. But, you know, impressionable teen.

The high point came many sessions later. Standing outside in a crisp but not cold dawn, marvelling at the exquisite beauty of young saplings and mossy rocks. Suddenly I had this sense of everything being imbued with life, of everything striving towards realisation of tree-ness and rock-ness in their own ways. It was definitely an experience of the sacred, a glimpse of something beautiful. And the thought was - why isn't life always like this? Why don't I see this, every moment?

Of course, I and many others realised you couldn't rely on artifice to really reach that kind of state with any kind of permanency (although there were also many who pursued it into addiction and destruction*.) But the accepted wisdom seemed to be, this is the state that can be actualised through meditative experience. That's why all those hippies hit the hash trail through Asia in the 1960's and 70's. Be Here Now, by Leary's sidekick, Richard Alpert, who became Ram Dass. Of course, sitting perfectly still in uncomfortable yoga postures for hours on end turns out to be nothing at all like an acid trip......

//

*Actually, I re-discovered the late great David Crosby in 2022, a few months before he died. Awesome songwriter. Anyway he said that the reason he got addicted to heroin, which damn near killed him, and did get him incarcerated at one point, was the attempt to re-create the experience of his first hit. He only really kicked the habit when he realised, many years later, and after many bad experiences, that it was never going to happen.

Epiphanies are not supposed to be reproducible. It's hard to accept that you get just the one.

How can a break from reality bring one closer to reality? — Shawn

I thought that would be clear, sorry. The worst feature of insanity is lack of insight. Most people think that sanity is normality and so they like what the neighbours like, believe what the television tells them, do what the priest tells them, and so on.

To be amenable and flexible is part of sanity when it is a conscious choice, but when it becomes unconscious and rigid conformism, it is a madness of false identification and leads to horrors. Magas, Nazis, cultists, fanatics and zealots of all persuasions all suffer from the loss of reality in favour of ideology. This is sadly the mental condition of normality, that confers on the sufferer a complete confidence in their distorted thinking. Psychodelics in particular serve to break down the identification somewhat - with luck, the cracks that are made in the psycho-ceramic's everyday insane certainty will allow a glimpse of reality to reach the sufferer.

To take the acid test is to made aware of one's insanity; to make a habit of it is the exact same insanity.

Anyway he said that the reason he got addicted to heroin, which damn near killed him, and did get him incarcerated at one point, was the attempt to re-create the experience of his first hit. He only really kicked the habit when he realised, many years later, and after many bad experiences, that it was never going to happen. — Wayfarer

I wonder if that's what he thought or if he was paraphrasing conventional AoD discourse. My background is in counselling and support for people with addiction issues. It's commonly held that people with heroin dependence are generally those chasing the remarkable experience of their first use. I tired heroin a couple times and while I find opiates remarkable (feelings of wellbeing) I had no reason to use regularly. The question remains why do some people become dependent and others do not? I suspect it is the same reason some people become dependent on food or shopping while others don't. Some people seem to have holes to fill.

The question remains why do some people become dependent and others do not? — Tom Storm

Surely genetics must play some role, if not the occasional cameo. Not to suggest willpower or simple availability of the thing (convenience meets opportunity) isn't a factor, however.

We say we want to know, but what we actually want is for knowledge to take the place we have to be responsible for ourselves, thus accountable for it, known by our words and acts. If we could know what is right, we would not have to make a claim of it in what we do. But what we want is to not been known, to not know ourselves, and thus the allure of drugs that allow me to forget all that.

.

But, to every person there is a unique identifier to be held about what or even why (which psychology addresses) some things are desired to be distracted from. Non-trivial to address. — Shawn

I've always felt this point needs sharpening. Why is it that some people seem to need substance use as a substitute for all other things? In talking to 'addicts' over the years, a common observation is that they would have suicided if it hadn't been for drugs. Their downfall is also their redemption.

Surely genetics must play some role, if not the occasional cameo. Not to suggest willpower or simple availability of the thing (convenience) isn't a factor, however. — Outlander

I don't know. I doubt willpower or the alternative, the AA cult, 'disease model' are the answer. 'Genetics' often seems like the catch all explanation that explains nothing. I suspect it has more to do with how life experiences (generally the traumatic) can rewire people's brains and make them uniquely susceptible. But I am no expert in addiction theory.

Some people seem to have holes to fill. — Tom Storm

And there are some holes that need fillin'! I should add, I've never tasted any opiate, save possibly if any used to be in Panadeine Forté. Nor cocaine. My dabbling was very much oriented around the possibility of higher states, or so I liked to think. Enthoegens, as mentioned, and cannabis, for which I retain an affection (perhaps unfortunately :yikes: )

The worst feature of insanity is lack of insight. — unenlightened

:up: :clap: :100:

And to the rest of the post, also.

My most memorable trip was with amanita muscaria, the fly agaric. I did much research into this mushroom before trying it, but probably took a little too much. I lost consciousness and through some kind of dreaming, took a trip to the edge of the world. Afterwards, I actually thought I almost died. Anyway it was an eye-opening experience.

Amanita muscaria is a very interesting mushroom. The deep red ones have the best psychoactive effect over the paler orange, and it seems best to dry them thoroughly in the sun. Fly agaric differs significantly from psilocybin because the trip ends with a heaviness in the head which tends to cause a few hours of sleep. Extensive research into the use of fly agaric was carried out by Gordon Wasson, who argued strongly that it is the mythical "Soma".

Another interesting intoxicant, for those who like the more risky 'road less traveled', is datura, the infamous "jimson weed". This one causes all sorts of far out dreams, but is actually quite dangerous, because the flower buds have the toxin, but it's quite strong. It derives the name "jimson" from an incident in the seventeenth century in Jamestown Virginia. At that time, British soldiers were fed the weed and went hilariously delirious for a number of days. Reference to the use of this weed is found in the books of Carlos Castaneda, especially "The Teachings of Don Juan". For those interested in the constructive use of hallucinogens, Castaneda has some very good material. Peyote remains my favourite, but overuse might be leading to endangerment of the species.

Surely genetics must play some role, if not the occasional cameo. Not to suggest willpower or simple availability of the thing (convenience meets opportunity) isn't a factor, however. — Outlander

Genetics does play a part in the tendency to some kinds of addiction, just as it does in how a particular chemical affects each individual. Additionally, we don't start life on the mythical level playing field; some babies are at a disadvantage long before they hear the word 'willpower'. Lives are lived in very conditions; they contain different proportions of pain, sorrow, fear and revulsion. Some people have more to escape from; some have less to stay grounded for. Some are well enough off to indulge their choice of stress-relief in a competitive arena. Many are just young, curious, reckless and persuadable.

I agree; but, I am somewhat hesitant to believe that any government will want its population to start taking drugs to remedy boredom. — Shawn

I suppose it's natural to not want to believe that, but governments have done a lot worse than that. Besides, we have historical examples such as during World War II when the U.S. military issued amphetamines (Benzedrine) to pilots and other personnel to combat fatigue and increase alertness on long missions. Nazi Germany extensively used methamphetamine, known as Pervitin, distributed in the form of chocolate bars called "Panzerschokolade", to enhance the performance and endurance of soldiers and military pilots during the war.

A bored population is a dangerous population, and an idle mind is the Devil's playground. The social "energies" become chaotic and unpredictable. If it were just boredom, then it would probably not be a significant problem, but boredom leads to all kinds of issues such as increasing impulsivity and risky behaviors, aggression, and hostility; fertile ground for "bad" ideas from the perspective of the social engineers and social managers. This is especially true if the evolutionary drive (energy) to survive or work is not structurally supported. That social energy, or that drive will be directed towards something, and if not checked can potentially result in a civilizational catastrophe.

Also, governments would only promote drugs in specific situations, but what they mostly do is restrict (make illegal) the availability of certain drugs to the population. When the prevailing social pressures reach a certain threshold, then a social state change occurs, and governments are forced to adapt. Part of this adaptation is not necessarily the promotion of certain drugs but the legalization of those specific drugs that have a capacity to mitigate those pressures. Governments have no other option than to deal with human nature and the tendency of humans to use drugs, sanctioned or otherwise.

Governments or politics are not the only determining factors in this complex dynamic; economic, and industry factors are also at play among others.

One person's drug is another person's medicine, and vice versa. An interesting rhetorical question to wonder about: What is the difference between a "drug" and a "medicine"?

To be amenable and flexible is part of sanity when it is a conscious choice, but when it becomes unconscious and rigid conformism, it is a madness of false identification and leads to horrors. Magas, Nazis, cultists, fanatics and zealots of all persuasions all suffer from the loss of reality in favour of ideology. This is sadly the mental condition of normality, that confers on the sufferer a complete confidence in their distorted thinking. Psychodelics in particular serve to break down the identification somewhat - with luck, the cracks that are made in the psycho-ceramic's everyday insane certainty will allow a glimpse of reality to reach the sufferer. — unenlightened

In my mind, what this means is that a good college education is of greater value for becoming open-minded and non-conformist. Then again, some people also take some drugs while at college. :victory:

In my mind, what this means is that a good college education is of greater value for becoming open-minded and non-conformist. Then again, some people also take some drugs while at college — Shawn

You may be right, but my experience is not that at all. I learned much at college but almost nothing of any use from the courses. On the contrary all my formal education seemed designed to create the "ideal" conforming angst-ridden robot, that is all governments can cope with.