They hid the guy all during the 2020 campaign....You and all the other Dems who are shocked, shocked that Biden's suffering the age-related cognitive impairment that was apparent in 2019. — fishfry

There were three pivotal one-on-one debates Biden was in and he won all three. One against Bernie and two against Trump.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-biden-debate-poll/
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-sanders-debate-poll/
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/23/poll-final-presidential-debate-biden-trump-432052

I watched all three of those debates (and the numerous primary debates) and thought Biden did fine. If he was in bad shape, as you claim, he wouldn't have won any of them.

Ouch. The New York Times is waging an all-out assault on Biden.

The Democratic Party Must Speak the Plain Truth to the President

The 2024 presidential election is not a contest between two men, or even between two political parties. It is a battle for who we are as a nation.

President Biden clearly understands the stakes. But he seems to have lost track of his own role in this national drama. As the situation has become more dire, he has come to regard himself as indispensable. He does not seem to understand that he is now the problem — and that the best hope for Democrats to retain the White House is for him to step aside.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/08/opinion/editorials/democrats-biden-truth.html

The arrogance of the media class is palpable, even more so when colliding against the arrogance of the Biden crime family. The best part is that this is the world they’ve made together. This is their vision, the product of their handiwork. And they can do no better than the dystopian future they imagine everyday in the midst of their moral panic.

Actual tears.

:up:

It looks to me as if the democratic party has managed to hand the election to Trump on a silver platter.

If opposition to Biden has not managed to coalesce into a united front until now, then it will not. Fear of uncertainty and sheer inertia will keep him in the race.

As far as I am concerned, this is a damning indictment of the democratic party as a vehicle of political action. They allowed the Republicans to run rings around them during Obama. They mishandled Hillary's campaign. They allowed Trump to gain absurdly outsized importance during his term. They then made the most conservatice choice possible by going with Biden, narrowly managing to win. Then instead of immediately planning for his replacement, they decided to just stick it out, simply crossing their fingers that Biden would be well enough 4 years down the line to beat Trump.

And now that it turns out he isn't, they made a panicky and half-assed effort which has practically ruined Biden's chances to win without actually having any chance to replace him.

Really the party (at the federal level) should just be dissolved at this point.

If opposition to Biden has not managed to coalesce into a united front until now, then it will not. Fear of uncertainty and sheer inertia will keep him in the race. — Echarmion

Like the Republicans with Trump, the Democrats in congress are cowards who would rather stay the course then try and do what they know is the right thing.

Really the party (at the federal level) should just be dissolved at this point. — Echarmion

Hopefully to be replaced by a party that actually gives it's base a voice instead of forcing candidates that they prefer on them, like Hilary in 2016 and Biden in 2020 and 2024. The voters made it very clear that they didn't want Joe to run again due to his age, and they ran him again.

The voters made it very clear that they didn't want Joe to run again due to his age, and they ran him again. — Mr Bee

I don't agree with this. There was no appetite for replacing Biden. He sailed through the primaries and his one credible challenger got almost no votes.

You can look up the polls yourself back then which always had a majority of people saying Biden is too old. Biden ran as an incumbent president against other candidates who got very little to no coverage in the media so the result was pretty obvious. Perhaps they should've done some debates.

People told pollsters that, yeah, but did anyone put pressure on elected dems or the DNC? Did the liberal talking heads demand a primary? Did the NYTimes editorial board say anything about it? The Democrats sleepwalked into this mess.

The Democrats sleepwalked into this mess. — RogueAI

This is a good way to put it, but it begs the question: How the hell is it that the republican party despite it's large and obvious fractures is able to put together a brazen but coherent bid for power while the democrats are asleep?

No they didn't, but the DNC should've seen what voters were thinking and not ignored public sentiment like they always seem so eager to do.

Assuming you could vote -I'm thinking you're British and cannot - do you vote for Biden or Trump?

I mean Kamala was a prosecutor. I don't think either were gonna be popular with the Democrat base in 2020 due to the BLM riots, but Biden decided on Harris. — Mr Bee

Yes good point. I remember that conversation now. I thought Demings was a great choice. As a Californian I never liked Kamala. Well it's a done deal now. And she has the inside track. Nobody's talking about Gavin or Gretchen lately.

I'll wait until tomorrow since alot of other congressional Dems are kind of staying silent and clearly are not just falling in line like the president wanted. I'm assuming you meant Mark Warner there, and his statements are also very noncommittal. Nobody except one representative came out today against Biden, and my guess is that the dissenters are currently keeping quiet so they can present a united front when they meet later. — Mr Bee

They had a meeting today. A reporter asked an attendee if they were on the same page, and he said, "We're not even on the same book." Reports that some people were in tears. Lot of misery in the Dem party. Pretty much anything could happen.

Yes John Warner was the one married to Elizabeth Taylor. I always get them confused

From what I can tell the House Dems are planning a meeting in the morning to discuss the matter privately, while the Senate is also doing the same at noon. Whether they'll decide to confront the president and whether any of that will be made public is anyone's guess. — Mr Bee

Right. Rumors they're all pretty upset and no solution in sight.

That's Biden's intended play here, but given that nothing he's done in the past week has assured worried Dems about his reelection prospects, and his complete dismissal of the concerns being thrown his way, I think he's only infuriated and emboldened his critics more. He couldn't convince them that he's not senile so now he's trying to say "don't oppose me or else I'll make it ugly for all of us" to get them to fall in line. Could be a sign he really is hopelessly stubborn or it could be a last ditch attempt at keeping the dam from breaking. Whether the Dems speaking tomorrow will act or not will depend on how they read what he said, but it's clear the president is daring them to oppose him. — Mr Bee

Right again. Nate Silver has an article out implying that Biden is bluffing. Maybe he is. He was at NATO today, didn't embarrass himself. He's hanging in. A politician who's been running for office for fifty years or more isn't going to go out easily.

Biden isn't at all a beloved figure. That was why he was thrown under the bus so easily. He's doesn't command a cult like following like Trump so it's easy for them to do so. He was nominated in 2020 purely for his perceived electability and now in an election where he seems to be losing that by being down against a convicted felon the Dems have largely soured on him. I mean they'll still vote for him to stop Trump but they have no support for Biden himself. — Mr Bee

Yes good point. He was always kind of a joke, then in 2020 he seemed like the best option to beat Trump. But why didn't the Dems do something sooner? If they'd just have had a competitive primary they'd have replaced him already.

Biden's status, or lack thereof, in the Democratic party cuts both ways. They clearly don't have loyalty to him, but he also has no loyalty to them. That's another reason he's hanging in. He's not thinking of the good of the party, he's taken a lot of disrespect from his fellow Dems over the years. It's the Bidens versus the world at this point.

What are they gonna do if he stays in? It seems at this point he's dragging the entire party down for his own selfish goals. At this point they might as well try to make it untenable for him and hope he isn't gonna stubbornly let his own party collapse under his hubris. — Mr Bee

Well, he was doing badly in the polls and had a high unpopularity rating even before the debate. Just another reason for them to have dealt with this during the primaries. Dems have no good options.

It's kind of a mixed bag at this point. Alot of them have "concerns" as well. May be a civil war situation but who knows, some of the supporters may believe deep down that Biden isn't the right guy for the job. Reportedly you have folks like Don Beyer saying in private that Biden should resign and let Harris be president while openly supporting him for instance. — Mr Bee

Love to be a fly on the wall in the Dem meetings. Kamala's playing it cool, supporting Biden in public. Someone mentioned that of all the Democrats, Kamala is the only one who had a Constitutional duty to notify people that Biden wasn't all there. Especially with the Parkinson's story in play. I wonder if that will come up. A lot of people have been covering up this situation for a long time.

Like I said, I'll wait until Tuesday to see if Biden has weathered the storm. The critics have been silent until they meet and gather. Here's a Politico article from Monday evening suggesting that things aren't necessarily over. — Mr Bee

Definitely not over. This thing's just getting started. Even if they swapped in Kamala, it would not be smooth sailing. The public would have a lot of questions about "What did they know, and when did they know it," as they used to say during Watergate.

Yeah I was one of the people who noticed it back then too (comparing it unfavorably to his 2012 debate performance), but it's way worse now. He could at least debate and do a forceful interview in 2020. — Mr Bee

He's gotten much worse just in the past few months. It's heartbreaking at a human level. Especially since none of us are immune. I kind of admire his stubbornness. I'd like to see him stay in and stick it to the party. According to the polling he was losing on the issues anyway. Not clear a last-minute swap would help. Not entirely clear that Biden's condition is the only reason he's behind in the polls.

Yeah I understand that ultimately it really is on Biden to step aside unless the Dems are brave enough to take stronger measures. — Mr Bee

They'll never impeach or invoke the 25th. They won't do it. And I don't know if pressure will be enough. I don't see Jill giving in "for the good of the party."

When the GOPs came to Nixon, they told him he was certain to be impeached and convicted. The Dems have no such leverage. This really is a day-by-day situation. Next week is the GOP convention, that might take some of the media attention off the Dems.

The hope I guess is to make the situation as untenable to Biden as possible because clearly he is out of touch with the reality of the situation, and also hope that the supposed good man in Joe will make him realize how destructive his political ambitions are to a party and country that's lost faith in him. — Mr Bee

BIden is not a good man. His lunchbucket Joe act is just for the public. I've heard he's always been a very nasty guy in private. Of course you're right, if he would gracefully bow out and endorse Kamala, that's the best the Dems can hope for.

Who knows, maybe he will let the party crumble before he steps aside, but even he should realize that he can't win an election if even his team lacks any confidence in him. — Mr Bee

I think the Dems should crumble for what they've done. They had three years to deal with this. Instead they've been lying and gaslighting the country. It was all "cheap fakes" and right wing propaganda right up until the debate. By rights, the voters should punish the Dems severely for all this. But of course Trump has his negatives. People who hate Trump are not going to suddenly vote for him.

I think if the Dems coalesced behind Joe that gives them their best chance. Then Kamala can take over shortly after the inauguration if Joe should win. It's going to be a close election either way. It's very unclear if swapping out Joe actually improves the Dems' chances.

And I don’t believe that for a minute. Biden was quite capable of executing his first term, and did so with distinction. — Wayfarer

Ok. You and I can agree to disagree on many things, and this is another such.

But don't you know that he's been getting the questions ahead of time at his infrequent press conferences? And making errors and telling falsehoods for the past three years? I guess people see what they want to see.

Are you saying you were genuinely shocked at his condition at the debate? Believed everything else was "cheap fakes?" How can that be? If you say so, I believe you ... but I've seen Biden's cognitive decline since 2019. Even at the Dem primaries in 2020 Cory Booker and others were making fun of his failing memory.

Distinction? Well I am trying to focus on the politics and not the policies because we all know each other's talking points on policy. But the inflation, the direct result of the massive printing and spending? The open borders that are costing LA and Chicago and NYC billions? Two new wars? Trump had none. If you call that distinction, we can agree to disagree on that too. I'll stipulate to all well-known talking points and rebuttals on both sides, not intending to argue policy. But a lot of Americans are quite unhappy with the Biden admin totally apart from Joe's personal condition.

Which by the way, is one reason swapping out Joe for Kamala might not be the panacea the Dems think it is. Same policies with less mental confusion. Not clear that's an electoral winner.

I only made the remark about medical factors causing Biden to retire, because I think he ought to retire. Like a lot of people, I think the public perception of him being 'too old' is a factor which might cause him to loose. If I were an American elector, and Biden was the candidate, I'd vote for him. I'm just concerned that many others won't, — Wayfarer

If you are backing off the stroke remark, I'll be glad to give you a pass on that. I did take it as representative of the massive anger that Dem suddenly feel towards Biden, when they'd been supporting him five minutes earlier.

and as I've already said, I believe the re-election of Donald Trump would be an unqualified disaster for the United States and the rest of the world. — Wayfarer

I understand that you feel that way. But Trump was already president for four years. He didn't put people in camps. He didn't do any of the bad things the Trump haters are afraid of. In fact he got rolled by the administrative state and most of the people who worked for him. Some dictator.

And no new wars started on his watch. That is something. That is a lot. And it was no accident. Trump was the peace candidate in 2016 and 2020, and he's the peace candidate today. The left used to be for peace. One of the factors in my defection from the left.

Nobody's been 'covering anything up' about Biden. — Wayfarer

That is just not true. He's been bumbling and stumbling in a frankly heartbreaking manner for several years now. It's not possible to have not seen it. The wandering off stages, the mis-statements that had to be cleaned up by aides the next day ... ok I won't go on. If you claim to have first seen Joe's infimity at the debate, I'll believe you. Because you say so; not because such a claim is credible.

When Joe wandered off at the G7, froze up at Juneteenth, and head-butted the Pope, did you believe KJP when she called those "cheap fakes?" Curious to know.

He's never been an orator, he often had verbal stumbles and gaffes throughout his career. — Wayfarer

He has always been corrupt and a rather stupid man. But he was always verbal. Nothing like the last few months and the last few years. The slurring of words. After the debate I was shocked that everyone else was shocked. He seemed to me the same as he's been for quite some time.

So what? The Washington Post kept a daily tally of Trump's lies in his first term which topped out at some number around 38,000 (correction, 30,583) so don't talk about 'deception'. Anyway Im not going to discuss it with you, if you can't see Trump's obvious malfeasance then there's obviously no point. — Wayfarer

The point is not that Orange Hitler is worse than the cognitively-impaired husk. That's a political judgment and politics is not about purity. But look what you're doing. You are denying Joe's cognitive impairment on the grounds that Trump is a terrible person. How does that even make sense? Trump is Trump, I get you don't like the guy. That has nothing to do with the fact that the Dems have indeed been covering up Biden's increasingly worse cognitive issues.

Do you even see your bad logic? You are saying that Trump is evil THEREFORE the Dems have not been covering up Biden's cognitive issues. Surely you can see the flaw in that argument.

You can't even discuss Biden's sad state of mind because you hate Trump so much. What kind of sense does that make?

"I just need 11,686 votes"..... — Wayfarer

You can't discuss Biden's cognitive issues because you hate Trump. This is exactly how the Democratic party got itself into the pickle it's in! Five years of denial, gaslighting, and coverups.

Ok let me say this another way. If I am understanding you, you claim that you cannot discuss the Democrats' current cognitively-impaired Biden pickle with me, because I don't agree with you about how evil Trump is.

Some people see politics purely in partisan terms. I can discuss a pickle whether the pickle is on one side or the other. The current situation is unprecedented in US history. It's nothing like when LBJ dropped out in 1968 over the Vietnam war, or when Truman chose not to run in 1952 due to his unpopularity.

To me, politics is a partisan affair, to be sure. But it is also a spectator sport. I don't have to love Trump or hate Trump to be enjoying the spectacle. But from your point of view, you can't even have a conversation with me about politics if I don't hate Trump the way you do.

In that case I'm sorry I troubled you. I enjoy talking politics. I don't have to love or hate the people involved. You can vote for Biden (if you were a US voter) regardless of his mental state; and in theory, you could have a conversation about politics with someone whose politics are different than yours. I've always been able to do that. Not everyone does that, sadly. Political conversation is polarized these days, but it can be otherwise.

If the GOPs were in a pickle this week I'd discuss that. I've seen GOPs and Dems in plenty of pickles over the years. I love a good political scandal. That's just me.

I watched all three of those debates (and the numerous primary debates) and thought Biden did fine. If he was in bad shape, as you claim, he wouldn't have won any of them. — RogueAI

I recall being amazed that Biden made it alive through those debates. I was not the only one with that expectation. I never thought he'd make it to election day. I saw an unwell man. And you are right, he did surprise me by surviving. Guess it was just me. What do I know, I liked Tulsi. Still do.

You don't have a left in the US. You have a slightly left of centre Sanders who is silenced by the Democratic Party which is itself right but not as authoritarian as the Republicans (unitary theory of government Bullshit).

I recall qualifying the 2020 election as a choice between two evils. One of those evils got a lot worse.

It clarifies once again that the USA doesn't qualify as a democracy. If the political system cannot produce choices beyond a vegetable and a criminal then quite obviously other people are in control what you get to vote on. We call that banana republics.

You don't have a left in the US. You have a slightly left of centre Sanders who is silenced by the Democratic Party which is itself right but not as authoritarian as the Republicans (unitary theory of government Bullshit). — Benkei

I hardly see the GOP as authoritarian. Going back a ways, which of these postwar GOP presidents were authoritarians? Ike, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 41, Bush 43, Trump. Feel free to explain to me what these folks did that was authoritarian. I opposed the hell out of 43's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but those wars never could have happened without the enthusiastic consent of the top Dems such as Hillary, Schumer, Biden, et. al.

In theory, the GOPs should be for free enterprise. Not that they really are, but that's more of libertarian sensibility. But I'm open to understanding you observation. When Obama ruled "with a pen and phone," was that the unitary executive? Or when the Supreme Court told Biden he couldn't transfer student loans to the taxpayers and he did it anyway, was that the unitary executive?

I recall qualifying the 2020 election as a choice between two evils. One of those evils got a lot worse. — Benkei

Every election I can remember has been that way. Bush (I'll do two wars) vs Kerry (I'll just do them better). What kind of choice was that?

It clarifies once again that the USA doesn't qualify as a democracy. If the political system cannot produce choices beyond a vegetable and a criminal then quite obviously other people are in control what you get to vote on. We call that banana republics. — Benkei

YouTubers Eric Hunley and Marc Groubert of America's Untold Stories awarded the US eight bananas (out of ten) following Bragg's conviction of Trump. What of it? Some of us don't think this country's had a legitimate government since the deep state killed JFK in 1963. We have a country of, by, and for the military-industrial complex.

$200 billion to Ukraine, and barely $330 million to Maui after their fire. And that was under the Biden administration. Care to defend that? I'd send $200B to Maui and send the corrupt Nazi Zelinsky money-laundering operation straight to hell. But that's just me. Peacenik from way back, like the left used to be.

Trump started no new wars, the only president in my lifetime to have managed that. Yet he's universally hated by the "good people." Why is that? Why do the good people love the warmongers?

What is on your mind about this? Who's the authoritarian and what have they done? Biden has been quite the unitary executive.

They had a meeting today. A reporter asked an attendee if they were on the same page, and he said, "We're not even on the same book." Reports that some people were in tears. Lot of misery in the Dem party. Pretty much anything could happen. — fishfry

Yeah the dam didn't break for now, but clearly nobody is eager to unite behind Biden just yet. Bennet's comments recently indicate that Biden isn't gonna be able to ignore and move on from the problem as he usually likes to do.

Right. Rumors they're all pretty upset and no solution in sight. — fishfry

Courage is a rare thing among elected officials which is why Trump wasn't banished from the GOP, despite their occasional concerns about him post Jan 6 and 2022 midterms.

Right again. Nate Silver has an article out implying that Biden is bluffing. Maybe he is. He was at NATO today, didn't embarrass himself. He's hanging in. A politician who's been running for office for fifty years or more isn't going to go out easily. — fishfry

I'd say call the bluff. Biden isn't exactly a guy who embodies strength as we saw during the debate and how he's been handling the Gaza situation. I mean sure he has alot of angry stubborn grandpa energy but Netanyahu has been crossing his red lines repeatedly and he has not done anything to stop him.

At this point I don't know what the congressional Dems have to lose either so they might as well try to improve their party's situation and place themselves on the right side of history in case Biden stays in, Trump wins, and he ends democracy.

One interesting aspect of Biden's ABC interview was that he never really specified how he would react if the congressional Dems turned on him. He outright refused to answer the question and acted like there's no revolt going on. If he was really delusional you would've thought that he would give a non-assuring answer like, "I would sit down and tell them 'We will win'," or something to that effect. That will probably hang over the Dems minds as they contemplate what to do next.

But why didn't the Dems do something sooner? If they'd just have had a competitive primary they'd have replaced him already. — fishfry

Arrogance. They thought they could probably roll with Biden into the next election and dismissed people's concerns about his age. I mean they got pretty far before we saw what happened a week ago... putting aside all those viral videos of Biden having senior moments.

Biden's status, or lack thereof, in the Democratic party cuts both ways. They clearly don't have loyalty to him, but he also has no loyalty to them. That's another reason he's hanging in. He's not thinking of the good of the party, he's taken a lot of disrespect from his fellow Dems over the years. It's the Bidens versus the world at this point. — fishfry

Sounds like great qualities to have in a leader, both for the party and the country.

Definitely not over. This thing's just getting started. Even if they swapped in Kamala, it would not be smooth sailing. The public would have a lot of questions about "What did they know, and when did they know it," as they used to say during Watergate. — fishfry

Yeah, but that would be much better than well, trying to convince the public to vote for a soon to be 82 year old man who clearly has cognitive issues to serve another 4 years in office.

He's gotten much worse just in the past few months. It's heartbreaking at a human level. Especially since none of us are immune. I kind of admire his stubbornness. I'd like to see him stay in and stick it to the party — fishfry

Depends on your political affiliation but as someone who doesn't want Trump winning I have no sympathy for an old man who is selfishly staying in and gambling with his party and country simply to try and get a second term in his 80s.

Not clear a last-minute swap would help. Not entirely clear that Biden's condition is the only reason he's behind in the polls. — fishfry

At this point I can see way more upsides to a new candidate than running with Biden. Biden can't do anything to fix the fact that he's down in the polls but another candidate can.

As Nikki Haley said, in a race between two incredibly unpopular geriatrics, the first party to get rid of their candidate wins the election. Polling seems to back that idea up, showing that a generic Dem or Rep running against either Trump or Biden respectively will easily win. It'll be interesting to see if that theory holds true.

When the GOPs came to Nixon, they told him he was certain to be impeached and convicted. The Dems have no such leverage. This really is a day-by-day situation. Next week is the GOP convention, that might take some of the media attention off the Dems. — fishfry

Yeah but they can severely harm and embarrass him, which at this point Biden frankly deserves. As a narcissist that's something he probably cares deeply about. Leverage isn't the same as having complete control over someone.

BIden is not a good man. His lunchbucket Joe act is just for the public. — fishfry

Yeah doesn't seem like it so far. He's become oddly Trumpian in just about every respect since the debate happened. That being said it could all be a bluff and he may fold if his party lost faith in him. Biden's recent attempt at painting his problems as the elites trying to get rid of him as Trump usually does just isn't believable coming from him, a man who has been propped up by the elites all his life.

I think if the Dems coalesced behind Joe that gives them their best chance. Then Kamala can take over shortly after the inauguration if Joe should win. It's going to be a close election either way. It's very unclear if swapping out Joe actually improves the Dems' chances. — fishfry

They're likely gonna coalesce if Biden lasts until the convention, and the party and the media will never bring up the age or replacement issue again.

Or... maybe they will continue bringing up the issue of replacement if it's possible to swap him out post nomination, though at that point it'd just be Kamala who would be the nominee. Could be possible (apparently there was discussion of Pence taking over the GOP ticket in October of 2016 after the Access Hollywood tapes came out after all). Biden is likely to have a major senior moment in the next 4 months especially during the next debate which may reignite the discussion, or he could just die of old age. He's 81 after all, so it's not a possibility you can definitively rule out.

You could argue that the elites foisted Biden on Democrats, but Republicans had no shortage of options when it came time to pick Trump, both in 2015 and 2023. That was a purely democratic exercise and the GOP voters got exactly what they wanted.

I still think Michelle Obama could be chosen at the convention, with Biden retiring. She would have my vote. — jgill

Seems like you're not the only one:

Only Michelle Obama bests Trump as an alternative to Biden in 2024 (Chris Jackson, Annaleise Azevedo Lohr, Charlie Rollason · Reuters/Ipsos · Jul 2, 2024)
One in three Democrats think Biden should quit the race, Reuters/Ipsos poll finds (Jason Lange, Scott Malone, Howard Goller · Reuters · Jul 2, 2024)


Wouldn't she need a sufficiently detailed political program? And present it for all to see? Or is that no longer relevant? :)

Judging by what I've seen of/from her, I can see her as US president. Surely a whole class above the Clown. From memory, she had some qualms about a normal life with/for their kids.

Ike, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 41, Bush 43, Trump. Feel free to explain to me what these folks did that was authoritarian. — fishfry

What did Trump do that was authoritarian? Seriously? He tried to pressure the Republican Georgia secretary of state to "find" exactly the number of votes he needed to win. He tried to pressure his own VP to not certify the election (Pence had to call Dan Qualye, of all people, for moral guidance), and he spread and continues to spread lie after lie about the election he lost. You should listen to Bill Barr's testimony about the aftermath of the election. Total banana republic stuff. We dodged a serious bullet. Had Pence not certified, or had Raffensperger gone along with the attempt to steal the election (he says he felt threatened by Trump), it could have gotten a lot uglier than it was. And then there's the fake elector scheme, and of course Jan 6th.

Wouldn't she need a sufficiently detailed political program? Or is that no longer relevant? :) — jorndoe

I think we've long since past that this election cycle.

Judging by what I've seen of/from her, I can see her as US president. Surely a whole class above the Clown. From memory, she had some qualms about a normal life with/for their kids. — jorndoe

Honestly I still don't see the obsession people have with Michelle Obama, especially since she doesn't seem to have any political ambitions or policies of her own. Like is it purely because people miss Barack Obama that much?

Honestly I still don't see the obsession people have with her, especially since she doesn't seem to have any political ambitions or policies of her own. Like is it purely because people miss Barack Obama that much? — Mr Bee

She comes across as a smart, nice, honest person. Since she was First Lady, she's intimately familiar with the job. She's been the in the public eye for a long time and not even a whiff of a scandal. If her politics is somewhat moderate, she would wipe the floor with Trump. And Barack would be back in the White House. It's a wonderful fantasy, but that's all it is. Although the betting odds have her at 7%...

I mean she may be First Lady but that doesn't at all give you any idea of what being president is like.

That being said if Jgill's prediction about Biden stepping aside (which is more likely now after the debate) and endorsing Michelle Obama that will certainly be Trump's worst nightmare. Plus the optics of passing over Kamala for another black woman wouldn't be as severe. Michelle just needs to last 4 months and the election is in the bag. A wonderful fantasy indeed.

Trump was already president for four years. He didn't put people in camps — fishfry

His policy of splitting migrant families resulted with many children being interred away from their families.

Trump is Trump, I get you don't like the guy — fishfry

My liking him or not is irrelevant. His danger to democracy is not a matter of opinion. He’s not only a terrible person, he’s a dreadful leader, his only policy is retribution. His speeches are horrific and contain nothing about policy as such, only threats and fear-mongering. How you can fall for his schtick beats me.

Biden is not ‘a husk’. He’s been an effective senator and president, but he needs to pass the torch.

//

I note today that Gavin Newsom is acting as party whip for Biden. I believe he’s totally sincere in so doing, but also that he’s ideally positioned to step up if the torch is passed.

I think being married to a president would give you a fairly good idea of what the job is like. My wife certainly has a good idea of what my teaching job is like. Obviously, not as a good idea as someone who is a teacher or is president.

Honestly I still don't see the obsession people have with Michelle Obama, — Mr Bee

Nostalgia for Barrack.

Yeah the dam didn't break for now, but clearly nobody is eager to unite behind Biden just yet. Bennet's comments recently indicate that Biden isn't gonna be able to ignore and move on from the problem as he usually likes to do. — Mr Bee

I think that even if Biden bowed out gracefully (unlikely) or the Dems forced him out (quite unseemly, also unlikely) and elevated Kamala, whose popularity is below Biden's (I haven't checked that lately) life would NOT suddenly be a bed of roses. A lot of Dem voters would be unhappy and confused. And the policies are no different. Biden had a bad approval rating and was losing the election to Trump even before the debate. Many of the Dems' policy results such as inflation, unchecked immigration causing blue cities to be overrun with a humanitarian and financial disaster; the two wars, etc etc, are quite unpopular. And Kam is to the left of Joe. I don't see how this solves the Dems' electoral problems.

Courage is a rare thing among elected officials which is why Trump wasn't banished from the GOP, despite their occasional concerns about him post Jan 6 and 2022 midterms. — Mr Bee

Verily I say unto you, and unto all the fervent Trump haters on this forum:

Trump is 100% the Democrats' fault

Back in early 2022, people were tired of Trump. I was tired of Trump. He has all his negatives, the bluster, the bullshit, the thin skin, the midnight tweeting, the lack of understanding of how the government works. I was ready for a new GOP candidate to challenge the Dem orthodoxy that's not working for a good portion of the people in this country.

If you remember, DeSantis was running neck-and-neck with Trump in the polls. Then Biden, Garland, and Wray raided Mar a Lago. The very next day, DeSantis was obliged to come out in support of Trump. From that moment onward, Trump started rising in the polls and DeSantis sank out of sight.

With every new lawfare case, Trump became more popular. Because the Trump haters see these cases as righteous applications of the law; but the other half of the country sees them as bad faith politicization of the American system of justice, one of the best things we (used to) have going for us.

And so now, Trump is all but unstoppable, and then there was the debate, and here we are.

I say this: If the Dems had done two things: (1) Totally ignored Trump; and (2) Had an open, competitive primary; then at this very moment, Gavin or Gretchen would be beating the stuffing out of DeSantis.

The Democrats created all of this. They made a martyr then a hero out of Trump; and they refused to confront reality about Biden's condition. The Dems did this. Not the GOP. Most of the GOP hate Trump, they'd love an alternative. The Democrats forced the GOP to rally around Trump.

I'd say call the bluff. Biden isn't exactly a guy who embodies strength as we saw during the debate and how he's been handling the Gaza situation. I mean sure he has alot of angry stubborn grandpa energy but Netanyahu has been crossing his red lines repeatedly and he has not done anything to stop him. — Mr Bee

I wouldn't mess with Jill and Hunter.

At this point I don't know what the congressional Dems have to lose either so they might as well try to improve their party's situation and place themselves on the right side of history in case Biden stays in, Trump wins, and he ends democracy. — Mr Bee

I truly do not understand that talking point. Trump was already president for four years and he didn't end democracy. On the contrary, he got rolled by the bureaucrats and most of the people who worked for him.

I think what people mean is that Trump is going to do to the Dems exactly what they did to him. And frankly, some of that would be a good thing. Garland and Wray are thugs. The country may never recover from their abuse of the justice system.

But Trump "ending democracy?" Nonsense. Most of that is projection on the part of the Democrats. We're having an election. That's democracy, imperfect as it is.

One interesting aspect of Biden's ABC interview was that he never really specified how he would react if the congressional Dems turned on him. He outright refused to answer the question and acted like there's no revolt going on. If he was really delusional you would've thought that he would give a non-assuring answer like, "I would sit down and tell them 'We will win'," or something to that effect. That will probably hang over the Dems minds as they contemplate what to do next. — Mr Bee

He's the president of the United States. He doesn't have to do or say a damn thing. He said something the other day I really liked. He said, "If someone wants to challenge me at the convention, let them." He's a tough old bird. I don't like the guy but this might be his finest hour!

He's the president. He has Jill and Hunter, two pit bulls. He has 3896 Democratic delegates.

What do the Dems have? A strongly worded editorial from the New York Times?

The Dems have no hand to play.

Arrogance. They thought they could probably roll with Biden into the next election and dismissed people's concerns about his age. I mean they got pretty far before we saw what happened a week ago... putting aside all those viral videos of Biden having senior moments. — Mr Bee

Cheap fakes. Like I say. The Dems are in a pickle entirely of their own making. Trump didn't make the Democrats ignore the Biden situation for the past three years. Whose bright idea was it to anoint Joe with their non-primary primary? If they'd had a real primary, Gav and Gretch would have been all over it. The 1968 Democrats had a wild primary that ultimately drove LBJ out. They could have and should have done exactly the same thing.

Arrogance, I guess that's as good a word for it as any. Short-sightedness. They tried to keep a lid on it and now it's blown up in their faces.

Sounds like great qualities to have in a leader, both for the party and the country. — Mr Bee

I'm likin' Biden more this week than I ever have in my life. I like this stubborn old coot telling the DNC and the New York Times to stuff it.

Yeah, but that would be much better than well, trying to convince the public to vote for a soon to be 82 year old man who clearly has cognitive issues to serve another 4 years in office. — Mr Bee

Wouldn't have to. He can run then turn it over to Kam in 2025. Would have made his point. Kam is not any more likely to win the election than Biden. Kam has high unfavorability. She's a lousy politician, the 2020 primaries showed that. She had to drop out in 2019. She is not the Dems' savior.

Depends on your political affiliation but as someone who doesn't want Trump winning I have no sympathy for an old man who is selfishly staying in and gambling with his party and country simply to try and get a second term in his 80s. — Mr Bee

I'm making a nonpartisan point. Say you hate Trump. I am making the point that Biden arguably has a better shot than Kamala. The party will look like a clown show if they throw over Joe after telling us he was "sharp as a tack" for three years. People will not like that. They don't have to vote for Trump, but enough of them might just stay home.

The message would be, "We said Joe is sharp as a tack but we were lying, so here, vote for highly unpopular Kamala." I don't think that's a winning message for the Dems. Not a partisan point. Biden has a better shot to win than Kamala. It doesn't matter that his mind is gone. He's not Trump, AND the DNC isn't pulling a last-minute switcheroo.

I don't think the voting public is going to like a switcheroo on top of the fraud they've already seen. Hope I made my point that I'm not talking partisanship. I think Kam's a terrible candidate. Her negatives don't go away if they elevate her.

At this point I can see way more upsides to a new candidate than running with Biden. Biden can't do anything to fix the fact that he's down in the polls but another candidate can. — Mr Bee

Ok, so that's a point we disagree on. But not a partisan point for me. If Trump didn't exist, the Dems should still run Joe. The swicheroo factor, I'll call it. People will feel that they've been played.

As Nikki Haley said, in a race between two incredibly unpopular geriatrics, the first party to get rid of their candidate wins the election. Polling seems to back that idea up, showing that a generic Dem or Rep running against either Trump or Biden respectively will easily win. It'll be interesting to see if that theory holds true. — Mr Bee

LOL. Well you know, maybe you are convincing me a little. I could be wrong. I give my own theory only about 75% credence. Maybe people are more horrified at Joe's condition than I realize. All the people who were genuinely shocked by the debate.

Yeah but they can severely harm and embarrass him, which at this point Biden frankly deserves. As a narcissist that's something he probably cares deeply about. Leverage isn't the same as having complete control over someone. — Mr Bee

I am pretty sure Biden is way beyond embarrassment at this point. And Jill and Hunter surely have no shame. But I see your point. At some point he'll cave to the political pressure of being so unliked. Could happen. Or it could just make him dig in more. He's been in politics over 50 years. Survival is an instinct. We see it all the time. His body knows how to be a politician even if his mind is gone.

Yeah doesn't seem like it so far. He's become oddly Trumpian in just about every respect since the debate happened. That being said it could all be a bluff and he may fold if his party lost faith in him. Biden's recent attempt at painting his problems as the elites trying to get rid of him as Trump usually does just isn't believable coming from him, a man who has been propped up by the elites all his life. — Mr Bee

Either way, I'm enjoying the show. I'm one who always enjoys a political show. If the GOP were having a fiasco this week I'd enjoy that just as much.

They're likely gonna coalesce if Biden lasts until the convention, and the party and the media will never bring up the age or replacement issue again. — Mr Bee

Chicago! The Palestinian wing of the party riots. "The whole world's watching!" 1968 here we come!

Or... maybe they will continue bringing up the issue of replacement if it's possible to swap him out post nomination, though at that point it'd just be Kamala who would be the nominee. Could be possible (apparently there was discussion of Pence taking over the GOP ticket in October of 2016 after the Access Hollywood tapes came out after all). Biden is likely to have a major senior moment in the next 4 months especially during the next debate which may reignite the discussion, or he could just die of old age. He's 81 after all, so it's not a possibility you can definitively rule out. — Mr Bee

Could happen. And Trump is no spring chicken either. One more Big Mac could do it.