• I like sushi
    4.8k
    An attempt at a rewrite of OP for the sake of clarity (we shall see) :D

    This is a thought experiment. Two quick caveats

    1) Consequence is being used separate from any concept of causality.

    2) The above statement becomes prevalent as we reach the point of contemplation.


    The scenario:

    - The world is populated with people whose choices are real.

    - By ‘real’ this means the choices they make are (at least in some part) free from the dictates of apparent physical causality.

    - In this world people have two differing sets of beliefs.

    Group A believe that causality is ‘real’ and their lives are completely predetermined (a false belief).

    Groups B believe that their choices are ‘real’ and that they can alter their futures independent of apparent causal factors (a true belief).

    Note: Neither group KNOWS if their belief is True or False.


    The question is what Group belief is better?

    In answering this open question maybe try considering the following:

    - A choice not to choose is still a choice.
    - A choice to deny that you can choose is a choice.
    - A choice to believe their is no choice, against your better judgment, is a choice.
    - Would person A and person B faced with the same scenarios act in the same manner assuming they were biologically identical BUT possessing the opposite beliefs as outlined?
    - Is having the ability to choose your fate better than not having to choose your fate?
    - If person A and person B live out their beliefs and then believed they were wrong and took on the opposing belief how would this effect them?



    Original Post:

    The question of free will has been one of contention for some time. This investigation sets the task of looking into the consequences surrounding the ideas of determinism and non-determinism.

    First, we need to outline what is meant by these terms.

    Determinism frames the premise that our futures are set and unchangeable (human choices are not real), whereas non-determinism frames the premise that humans can change their fate (human choices are real).

    The question now is not about what is true because we have no current way of unraveling this question in any simple manner. The question posed here is what is better to believe.

    To start, if determinism is true, it makes no difference what we believe as what we believe is preordained. If non-determinism is false, then it makes no difference as determinism would be true - the same situation as stated with determinism.

    The issue is the effects of a belief in determinism and non-determinism if non-determinism is true. If humans have choices and believe in determinism, this is a choice they have willingly made (which is false). While if humans believe in non-determinism, they have willingly chosen to believe that they can choose and do so (because it is true).

    Now comes the harder problem. Which is ‘better’ to believe in the case that non-determinism is true? We can see clearly which is true, but truth does not tell us what is better. Some may be quick to argue that it is better to believe in what is true than in what is false. How can this be said with any certainty, though? It may just be that to believe in a determined world provides comfort and allows a kind of passive freedom, where a belief in non-determinism brings with it the stresses and strains of personal responsibility as the choices humans (rightly) perceive they make would bear the heavy weight of real consequences.

    Before elaborating on further nuances, it is time to introduce Nozick’s thought experiment, the “Experience Machine”. This was created as a means of disproving a certain kind of hedonism, but it will serve a good purpose here in developing the problems of choice in a non-determinist human life (a life of choice). Nozick’s experiment revealed that people would generally refuse the perfect lived experience if they knew such an experience was disconnected from reality (in a Matrix movie fashion). Here there is a parallel with the idea of believing in determinism - entering the ‘experience machine’ - in a non-determinist human world. The human choice of entering this machine is effectively a denial of reality in favor of a world where human experiences are determined by the machine rather than chosen directly by the human.

    What Nozick’s thought experiment was trying to reveal was that there is more to human life than the pursuit of pleasure. The pleasures of human life are not really considered of higher value if they deny reality and effectively ‘unplug’ from reality (or plug into a false one). If the simple hedonistic pleasures he outlines are of no value over reality, then humans adhere to authentic experiences of reality even if they possess stresses and strains.

    To look back at a problem of non-determinism for a human life. What needs to be considered here is the degree of choice and the degree of impact it has on the future, while for determinism there are no consequences to choices because the choices are illusions. From here, another potential layer of disillusionment can be placed on non-determinism for human life as they are stuck not knowing how significant their choices are and so under a different level of strain because of this.

    So, are we really better off believing we are free or not? Or does it come down to the makeup of the individual and how best suited they are to coping with reality as to whether or not, in various instances of their lives, to believe or disbelieve in choice to placate overwhelming strains they would otherwise be victims to?

    Then humans see that they are victims of life’s stresses and strains and confine themselves accordingly as a matter of personal survival and pain avoidance. Does this then mean that humans in a non-deterministic universe (with real choices) generally choose not to choose by being effectively dictated to by their need to refrain from too much stress and strain in life? by their need to refrain from too much stress and strain in life?
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    First, we need to outline what is meant by these terms.

    Determinism frames the premise that our futures are set and unchangeable (human choices are not real), whereas non-determinism frames the premise that humans can change their fate (human choices are real).
    I like sushi

    I doubt that this is a common view among those who accept determinism. Results of the 2020 Phipapers survey were:

    Free will: compatibilism, libertarianism, or no free will?
    Accept or lean towards: compatibilism 59.16% (57.68%)
    Accept or lean towards: libertarianism 18.83% (18.20%)
    Accept or lean towards: no free will 11.21% (10.58%)
    Other 13.54%

    Compatibilism, in a nut shell, is the view that free will is compatible with determinism.

    What you are describing as determinism I would call fatalism.
  • NotAristotle
    384
    Here is an argument:

    If determinism is true, then there is no good reason to deliberate because such thought will not change how I decide (I must choose, or "act" the same way whether I deliberate or not).

    Then, deliberation is pointless and no one should ever take the time to deliberate.

    But that is terrible advice; therefore, belief in determinism is counter-productive.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    If determinism is true, then there is no good reason to deliberate because such thought will not change how I decide (I must choose, or "act" the same way whether I deliberate or not).NotAristotle

    Do you think that you are able to make a free willed choice to stop deliberating?
  • wonderer1
    2.2k


    Ok, do you think that you are able to maintain a free willed choice to stop deliberating for the rest of your life?
  • NotAristotle
    384
    It would be foolish, but yes.
  • wonderer1
    2.2k


    I'm skeptical. I don't think you would go all that long without deliberating about eating or drinking.
  • NotAristotle
    384
    Deliberating can either change one's decision or it cannot not. If determinism is true and I am someone for whom deliberation does make a difference, then it seems like I could save myself a lot of time by simply choosing the opposite of what I otherwise would have chosen without deliberating.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    :up: :up:

    If determinism is true ...NotAristotle
    ... then involuntarily determined sometimes I deliberate and sometimes I do not deliberate; thus, it is an illusion (i.e. cognitive bias) that "retrospectively I feel" I could have "voluntarily" done A instead of B or "prospectively feel" I will "voluntarily" do X and not Y ... as if my volition is not embodied-conditioned-constrained (i.e. determined) by causes known and unknown to me moment to moment.
  • NotAristotle
    384
    I understand the position that my feelings concerning what I could have done could be mere illusions. What doesn't make sense to me is why someone who believes in determinism would ever take the time to deliberate.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    They are determined, ergo involuntarily choose to do so.
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    Determinism frames the premise that our futures are set and unchangeable (human choices are not real), whereas non-determinism frames the premise that humans can change their fate (human choices are real).I like sushi
    This is unreasonable. Human choice is real, determinism or no. Do not make the mistake of equating choice with free choice, responsibility with external responsibility. Your post seems to equate the two.

    Secondly, even in nondeterministic views, one cannot change the future. One is a causal part of it, sure, but using the word 'change' suggests that it was one thing, and later the same future is different. That isn't true even if free will is presumed.

    I do like your usage of 'our future', which doesn't automatically presume a view where there is a 'the future', having a different ontological state than the present.

    The question posed here is what is better to believe.
    Few ask this. In short, believe whatever makes you do the more correct thing. If your beliefs in this matter don't significantly influence your day to day decisions, then the beliefs don't particularly matter. If fear of the wrath of the FSM makes you a better person, by all means make that part of your beliefs.

    To start, if determinism is true, it makes no difference what we believe as what we believe is preordained.
    Externally preordained, yes. This does not imply that your belief is not a choice.

    If non-determinism is false, then it makes no difference as determinism would be true - the same situation as stated with determinism.
    Double negative? The lack of determinism does not necessarily imply free will, but again, your continued post obviously presumes otherwise. Maybe you should be asking about free will, and not worry about determinism at all, starting with a decent definition of what you think it is.

    The human choice of entering this machine is effectively a denial of reality in favor of a world where human experiences are determined by the machine rather than chosen directly by the human.
    So this machine, unlike a video game where the player makes choices, is more like going to the cinema and having your experience done for your, except fully immersive. A story told is not a life lived. A purpose is served, but it's not your own. I agree with Nozick in this sense. But has he illustrated the difference between choice and free choice, or just choice and no choice?


    Compatibilism, in a nut shell, is the view that free will is compatible with determinism.wonderer1
    I googled 'compatibilism' and it ended with "Compatibilism does not maintain that humans are free.". I don't see much difference in this view and 3) no free will.
    On a side note, I also don't in any way see why free will is a good thing.

    What you are describing as determinism I would call fatalism.
    My understanding of fatalism is that things will turn out the same in the long run regardless of the choices made. If you save a life of a person fated to die today, he'll die by another means shortly.


    If determinism is true, then there is no good reason to deliberate because such thought will not change how I decide (I must choose, or "act" the same way whether I deliberate or not).NotAristotle
    Nonsense. Thought very much has a causal influence on decisions. If you deliberate, the choice will very much be different than if you don't deliberate.
  • Fire Ologist
    716
    Determinism frames the premise that our futures are set and unchangeable (human choices are not real), whereas non-determinism frames the premise that humans can change their fate (human choices are real).I like sushi

    I don’t think we should frame things in the future.

    If determinism is true then the present is set.

    If determinism is true, at no time in the present is my state the result of my own choices. If I am eating chocolate ice cream and I think this is because I freely chose it over the vanilla, the truth is, I am eating it presently for other reasons.

    I can only know that the future is out of my hands, but I can’t say it is set.

    All I know is that my present state is not the result of me being free from forces that always precede my present state, and free enough to insert my own choice into the chain and tide of forces that placed chocolate ice cream in my mouth.

    But those forces could be random. They could be some other free agent, operating me like a puppet at their free will - who knows? But I need not conclude that my future is set; only that my present was constructed by other than my choices. And that my future is not mine to set by my “choices”.

    Maybe this is the same result, but I think it makes it more scientific if a question, and less dramatic with words like “fate”.

    truth does not tell us what is better.I like sushi

    I honestly think a conversation about whether or not we are free is like a conversation about whether or not there are words.

    “Do words exist?”

    Once you ask it, you are using the very objects you are looking for. It becomes absurd to speak this way.

    Same thing with freedom. Stopping to deliberate IS freedom. We are free no matter what we choose or why we choose it once we deliberate, in that when we deliberate, we are no longer choosing or acting on choice but instead not acting yet as we deliberate.

    So, instead of acting, we choose to deliberate. This sets us free.

    Now if determinism is so thorough, each word my deliberation is bound to follow, then Inam not deliberating, but acting out a script forged in the moments leading up to that script.

    Maybe.

    Seems to me must make a choice on this question. Even if we deliberate and choose to believe that we are not free, that our thoughts and deliberations are determined, we are saying that, despite not being forced to KNOW this by reason, we BELIEVE it anyway, by choice. So we must even give our consent before we can accept we are determined.

    This show to me the mechanism that is freedom. Thinking is free (or can be). In thought, is where a ground apart from all other forces can be born, and where one can claim “chocolate need not be, but is nevertheless, my choice, as I claim it.”

    Maybe chocolate had to be, but at least in a compatibalist sense, I agree chocolate had to be if it was to be because of my choice. I agree. I take responsibility for it. I consent to the flow of forces.

    I admit I haven’t shown anything, except that, like wondering if there are any words we seem to always use words, in wondering if we are free we seem to always be left with a choice.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Nice information but irrelevant to the problem posed. Call it fatalism if you wish. I simply tried to outline what I was saying for this scenario as simply as I could (no need to get into the nuances of jargon).

    The question now is not about what is true because we have no current way of unraveling this question in any simple manner. The question posed here is what is better to believe.I like sushi

    Few ask this. In short, believe whatever makes you do the more correct thing. If your beliefs in this matter don't significantly influence your day to day decisions, then the beliefs don't particularly matter. If fear of the wrath of the FSM makes you a better person, by all means make that part of your beliefs.noAxioms

    Yeah, I have not seen many ask this question. They just get tied up arguing about something they have no certainty about. Some prefer X and other mock X for thinking they can prefer X. The argument there is dead in the water.

    I believe this problem is a kind of side door into the whole Determinism debate without really caring what is or is not correct.

    I can only know that the future is out of my hands, but I can’t say it is set.

    All I know is that my present state is not the result of me being free from forces that always precede my present state, and free enough to insert my own choice into the chain and tide of forces that placed chocolate ice cream in my mouth.

    But those forces could be random. They could be some other free agent, operating me like a puppet at their free will - who knows? But I need not conclude that my future is set; only that my present was constructed by other than my choices. And that my future is not mine to set by my “choices”.

    Maybe this is the same result, but I think it makes it more scientific if a question, and less dramatic with words like “fate”.
    Fire Ologist

    Irrelevant. Except for part in bold. We do not know so let's not waste our time speculating and see if we can say more about how one belief may or may not be 'better' than the other.

    The rest of your post is you arguing with yourself and moving beyond the question posed in the OP. I am REALLY not interested in anything other than the question I asked and its possible ramifications.

    Clearly determinism for humans is a moot point if true. The question is really about the belief in either if determinism (as outlined in the OP) is false and non-determinism is true.
  • NotAristotle
    384
    noAxioms, you said my decision will be different after deliberation then what it would have been had I not deliberated, will it also be better for having deliberated?
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    I think I outlined fairly well why there is no serious point in talking about Determinism as True in the sense I framed it. If it is false it might still be 'better' to believe in compared to believing in Non-determinism.

    The entire point of this thread is to explore this. On the surface it may appear that it is 'better' to believe in Non-determinism. The question is can you provide good arguments for this belief and strongman the Determinism position too?
  • NotAristotle
    384
    That is exactly what I am doing by showing that belief in determinism is consistent with the belief that one should not waste time deliberating. The point being, of course everyone should deliberate on important questions, therefore the deterministic worldview leads to imprudent decisions.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    I think it is far more likely it would lead to no decisions at all (which is a decision). We could also then argue that a non-deterministic belief would lead to procrastination and no decision making too though.
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    If determinism is true then the present is set.Fire Ologist
    If determinism is true,then there wouldn't be a meaningful present to be set.

    They could be some other free agent, operating me like a puppet at their free will - who knows?Fire Ologist
    You just described dualism. Free will is typically framed in such terms, with the free agent operating outside the physical causal laws. No explanation as to how this agent is itself free from however it works.


    Some prefer X and other mock X for thinking they can prefer X. The argument there is dead in the water.I like sushi
    Does the preference influence decisions? Then there's no basis for mocking it, unless I suppose if ones chosen preference influences decisions in a negative way. But even the negativeness of those decisions is a judgement being made by somebody else who likely holds different preferences about what is positive and negative behavior.


    noAxioms, you said my decision will be different after deliberation then what it would have been had I not deliberated, will it also be better for having deliberated?NotAristotle
    Probably, yes. I'm sure you can find anecdotes illustrating the reverse, but in general, there would have been no point in evolving a fairly expensive mechanism for making choices if it didn't make better ones than choices made without said expensive mechanism.
    Notice that this holds regardless of determinism or no, or regardless of free will or no. Hence my stance that free will is of no benefit to anything since I cannot think of a situation where it would help.

    My anecdote: Many government decisions are made before deliberation. The deliberation is not a significant contributor to the decision (vote) submitted.


    If it is false it might still be 'better' to believe in compared to believing in Non-determinism.I like sushi
    Again, it depends on how that belief, one way or another, affects one's choices. I personally cannot provide good arguments for this belief one way or another in the determinism issue since I cannot think of how it would make any empirical difference. But somebody else (Not-A above) might hold a belief that it does make a difference, hence the choice of position would make a difference.
  • Fire Ologist
    716
    We do not know so let's not waste our time speculating, and see if we can say more about how one belief may or may not be 'better' than the other.I like sushi

    So, are we really better off believing we are free or not?I like sushi

    We is a good starting point. It’s not just whether it is better that I believe I am free or not, it is whether we believe we are better.

    Just to float an answer, yes, it is better for us to believe we are free.

    I, at times, feel like I’m free. I’m sure we all do.
    And in a world full of creatures that could feel so free as me, I wouldn’t want everyone running around without any sense of responsibility for those feelings. You feel you are free, you better believe I am going to react to you that way.

    But If WE do not believe we are free then just as no one could hold you responsible for anything you do, you cannot hold anyone else responsible for anything they do.

    So, gut reaction, it’s better if “we” believe we are free regardless of whether in fact we are determined or free. (Basically, I don’t want to let anyone off so easily, not even me, sly dogs, not so fast.).

    But there are many way to approach this question besides from the gut. And I threw out the word “responsibility” relating this conversation immediately to ethics/morality.

    YET, I will admit, once you start talking directly about belief on the freedom/determinism question, you may as well be talking about agency (does agency pass through you, so you are almost not there, or are you an agent, an end point separate from the last link in the chain and with its own influence on the next link in the chain.). It’s a natural digression to think what happens to ethics when wondering about “better” and worse and freedom and determinism.)

    I think a better digression is to stick with the same question “are we better off believing we are free or not?” and spending some time defining:
    “free”, “not free or determined” and “believe”.

    “Believe” all by itself seems to have an element of freedom to it. Very quickly, compare “believe” to “know” and you see the freedom in believing; when we know something, we are not free to believe otherwise, but when we do not know something, there is room to believe anyway. We freely choose to believe, in a sense. So freedom needs to be discussed along with whatever it means to believe, and believe needs to be discussed a bit in the context of “know”.

    (Note to self:
    Believe is to know
    What freedom is to determined.)

    As you said, it was the conflict between knowledge and belief that got us into this mess:

    We do not know so let's not waste our time speculatingI like sushi

    The other digression is that we can’t really avoid speculating about what it means to be “free” and what it means to be “not free”. We are talking about “being” free or “being” determined. In the moment. Me included. You too. Right now.

    If you are asking whether it is better to believe this or that, I need to know what “this” means and “that” means to some degree to process this question. Immediately when we make this and that “freedom and determinism” we’ve set two polar opposites against each other. There is no in between a belief in freedom or a belief in no freedom. They beg further definition.

    What does “not being free” mean? So can I really not be free?

    I am writing now. So if I am determined only, then these words as well and all above and below, cannot be otherwise than they are. If we are to decide if it is better to believe that we are determined, I still have to answer for this moment now, as I continue to write things like “this moment now” and say to myself and to you “none of this is ‘me’ and nothing could be otherwise in these words as all is determined.” And you believe it too - your response to these words is not free and you will or will not post a reply, and you will or will not agree with me, or understand me, all minus “you” and “your freedom” as nonexistent as “me.”

    I hope that made sense. (A further digression would be into how determinism destroys identity, or contradicts the “we” or the “I”, the subject of the sentence, the one who believes anything.)

    If I am not actually free, then I might not be able to believe anything in the first place, because believing has a hint of free choice hiding in it. Yet I have to assume I “believe”, just as I have to assume “I” believe, in order to believe, either freedom or determinism is better (as here questioned).

    But I digress again.

    So I gave you my first answer, “better to believe we are free,” took it from my gut,
    and then I showed you some of the many pieces that I think would have to be diced and sliced before I might give you the right answer of what is better.

    Otherwise the answer to what it is better to believe could be psychological, or it could be political, but I like the metaphysical, epistemological, existnetial/ontological elements better, as I think you are trying to get at.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Some good points and interesting perspective there. Made me think.

    I guess I am particularly curious about the Purpose (teleological) and Value (axiological) aspects involved when applying the "Experience Machine" to this question.

    Note: let us stick to plain English rather than throwing around jargon though for now (much like with various nuances of Determinism).

    Nozick tried to show that raw 'pleasures' are not necessarily what humans are pursuing. He pointed at the belief in the reality of the experience as being a factor that outweighs a pursuit of 'pleasure'.

    Extracting this idea and applying to what is 'better' to believe, for the problem I have posed, shift the focus of the argumentation. By this I mean that we decide what is 'better' so how we Value the different positions matters.

    Assuming Non-determinism (in any degree) can we provide evidence to state that belief in non-determinism trumps belief in determinism (as outlined in OP). I think we can.

    The dynamic between living a so-called good life and living a life adhering to reality seem to be entwined. Reality seems to expose itself as the Purpose we carry for living; or rather, exposing reality is the Purpose for living.

    Future is certainly tied up within this. Many people's access to 'pleasure' is generally in the immediate now, in temporal isolation, and in sensation. The Purpose is something more substantial as it is reality seeking.

    The pleasure is ephemeral and perhaps an immediate reactionary guide; focus on the visceral experience. The Purpose both concrete and expansive in a temporal incompletion - we are always seeking reality through the real rather than abstractly measuring it in terms of 'pleasure'.

    Note: I am trying to be concise here so as not to muddle the line of thinking.

    Now, if we view Purpose as both reality led and reality leading - instead of goal driven - believing in no temporal Purpose (Determinism) clearly defeats Purpose as a led and leading aspect of human life. For non-determinism we then have the task of what that means as a Purpose led and leading being and to what extent our strain and stresses of responsibility factor in or not, then provide the evidence for this (if possible).

    As an example of the ideas above (in case it is difficult to follow): I had a gut feeling that I should apply the thought experiment of the 'experience machine' to determinism vs non-determinism. The gut feeling is merely 'pleasure' directed, but the underlying mechanism of all this is Purpose. This reveals that a 'better' belief is the belief that drives Purpose, therefore believing in having purpose is certainly better than not believing in Purpose.

    The only remaining question then is whether or not there is an optimal degree of belief in non-determinism and whether or not an argument for belief in determinism can be realised within these bounds?
  • Patterner
    1k
    If determinism is true, then there is no good reason to deliberate because such thought will not change how I decide (I must choose, or "act" the same way whether I deliberate or not).NotAristotle
    Deliberating adds to the equation. You cannot know that a decision made immediately and a decision made after any amount of deliberation would be identical, even if determinism is responsible in either case.
  • Patterner
    1k
    Before elaborating on further nuances, it is time to introduce Nozick’s thought experiment, the “Experience Machine”. This was created as a means of disproving a certain kind of hedonism, but it will serve a good purpose here in developing the problems of choice in a non-determinist human life (a life of choice). Nozick’s experiment revealed that people would generally refuse the perfect lived experience if they knew such an experience was disconnected from reality (in a Matrix movie fashion). Here there is a parallel with the idea of believing in determinism - entering the ‘experience machine’ - in a non-determinist human world. The human choice of entering this machine is effectively a denial of reality in favor of a world where human experiences are determined by the machine rather than chosen directly by the human.I like sushi
    I hadn't heard of Nozick. But how I experience an event - how I feel about it, and what I chose to do next - are real, regardless of the nature of the event. If I know I have entered a machine, I feel and act in response to whatever input I receive, and my feelings and actions will be influenced by that knowledge.
  • flannel jesus
    1.8k
    you talk about it as if they could choose not to
  • flannel jesus
    1.8k
    yes, he keeps talking like you can just skip straight to the end, but... that's not how determinism works in principle.

    You can't just cut out deliberation if deliberation is part of the determined process.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Huh? The point is you would not enter the machine because it was not real.
  • NotAristotle
    384
    whether determined to deliberate or not doesn't really matter. I am content to say that a determinist who deliberates is acting irrationally and he will agree with me that he is acting irrationally; that is, that he is not acting according to his deterministic convictions.
  • flannel jesus
    1.8k
    why? He's acting exactly as he's determined to. What's the line of reasoning that ends with "therefore I shouldn't deliberate?"
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    This is WAY off topic now.

    @flannel jesus Same for you. The conditions are given in the OP and it is quite clear that 'Determinism' in the sense I am categorising it is of consequence ONLY from the proposed 'Non-Determinism' being true.
  • Patterner
    1k
    ↪Patterner Huh? The point is you would not enter the machine because it was not real.I like sushi
    I certainly would. I wouldn't miss the experience.

    ↪Patterner This is WAY off topic now.I like sushi
    It's not. You said:
    The human choice of entering this machine is effectively a denial of reality in favor of a world where human experiences are determined by the machine rather than chosen directly by the human.I like sushi
    I disagree, and am telling you why. What is able to be experienced in the real world is the result of certain factors, and quite a bit of it is outside of my control. What is able to be experienced in this machine is the result of other factors, also largely outside of my control. Either way, I don't make the rules/laws of nature, but would be experiencing what could be experienced. Assuming I had the same consciousness and free will in the machine that I have now (regardless of how much I have now), as those plugged into the Matrix do, then the setting of my life isn't important. How I chose to live it is.
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