With a proper therapist, you should be able to drill down to the stuff that's tucked away in the sub-conscious. I think you need to dig up all the crap from the past in order to fully heal and move on in a healthy way. — CasKev

(Y)

This can also take months to years in order to achieve.

CBT will help with the conscious part of your problem - — CasKev

Perhaps, but the negative effects of cock and ball torture often outweigh the positives, so do be careful.

@Hanover What negative effects do people experience with CBT? The experience was an entirely positive one for me. I wasn't immediately cured of depression, but it certainly didn't add to the misery.

While that might be true it still doesn't take away from the fact that suicide is a personal decision. — Question

Decisions under duress aren't free. Yes, suicide is a personal decision, but, it's forced upon you. In a sense, it's the perfect murderer's MO (modus operandi). Isn't that why, in law, we have to investigate suicides? We look for foul play, both direct (murder being made to look like suicide) and indirect (inciting someone to suicide).

It won't help with the poison that may be brewing underneath. — CasKev

And, that's the issue I'm dealing with. I've studied CBT for a good six or seven years. It doesn't work for the root cause of the distressing thoughts.

This can also take months to years in order to achieve. — Buxtebuddha

Sadly, the issue feels that it needs to be addressed soon. I'll probably talk with my doctor to change my medication and see if I can register for a meeting with a therapist. Problem is, I've been to a multitude of therapists and I don't feel as though we've made any progress in terms of uncovering why the depression is there in the first place.

It's still a decision, you can't take away the choice that one makes in their decision-making process.

It's still a decision, you can't take away the choice that one makes in their decision-making process. — Question

The point of coercion is to rob someone of choice. I've been forced to do things and I certainly didn't feel like I had a choice.

Either X or suicide
Not X (by force or threat)
Therefore, suicide

Does the above look like choice?

The point of coercion is to rob someone of choice. — TheMadFool

Fine, have it your way. You're robbing yourself of your future (be it a depressed and unhappy one) by committing suicide.

Fine, have it your way. You're robbing yourself of your future (be it a depressed and unhappy one) by committing suicide. — Question

:D

I'm not suicidal, unfortunately. I'm not saying we should opt suicide. What is important to to know is the average Joe doesn't commit suicide (choice) and at the other end of the spectrum we have suicide (choice). The difference is that the the former's choice is free while the latter's isn't. This must surely mean something, right?

There is really no choice for the stupid. The stupid shall suffer either way.

I know of two types of suicide, one's done out of passion and the other done analytically and with a plan. Both give the same result; but, it's the one done in cold rationality that bears the mark of making a self-determined choice.

Both give the same result; but, it's the one done in cold rationality that bears the mark of making a self-determined choice — Question

Cold rationality??. Give me some examples. Suicide is rationalonly to the extent that we choose through a disjunctive syllogism:

1) Either A or suicide
2) Not A (not acceptable option)
Therefore,
3) Suicide

And I think, premise 1 is false most of the time. In extremis, we may take desperate steps but that's the whole point, in extremis.

Suicide is rationalonly to the extent that we choose through a disjunctive syllogism — TheMadFool

Suicide is much more complex than a disjunctive syllogism. I don't think we need to trivialize the issue here with a simple modus ponens.

And, yes, though I'm not playing devils, advocate, here, suicide can be rational in some cases. In others, I don't see the argument from the sanctity of life as a viable alternative.

Again, if we're going to die either way, then one can choose when and how they want to die. The only cases where suicide is unethical is when leaving a burden on others behind with one's passing. Even in those cases, there are exceptions to the rule where suffering is greater than the continuation of life for others, and this suicide becomes morally and ethically neutral.

Is suicide selfish? Yes, in a way it is selfish; however, I don't think we've evolved to the point of being concerned for the welfare and lives of others to such an extent that suicide would appear morally wrong. If I were Mozart of some sort or gifted in some other regards and had something to contribute to society, then I would put more hesitation on the thought of killing myself. But, Mozart I am not nor a Bach for the matter.

If I were Mozart of some sort or gifted in some other regards and had something to contribute to society, then I would put more hesitation on the thought of killing myself. — Question

Maybe you do have something to contribute to society, but you'll never know it unless you try it with your whole being. Contributing something to society isn't easy. Mozart had to work very hard for it. Most of the people are too lazy to work as hard as it takes though - so they prefer to have an easier life and be enlightened hedonists.

Suicide is much more complex than a disjunctive syllogism. — Question

I'm afraid it is not. The final stage of reasoning is exactly a disjunctive syllogism. It's rational, agreed, but only in a mechanical robotic sense. The reasoning prior to it is what's important (I think that's what you mean) and that I can say, all Buddhists say, is erroneous. There are exceptions to this view, but that's a vacuous truth because every rule has exceptions.

In others, I don't see the argument from the sanctity of life as a viable alternative. — Question

Sanctity has nothing to do with it. Suffering, the much touted reason to peddle suicide as an option, is irrational. It's simply foolishness and dangerous to ask for the impossible - life can't be a bed of roses. So, accept facts e.g. the Buddhist tenet of impermanence, if you accept it, drastically reduces suffering, or so I hear.

Again, if we're going to die either way, then one can choose when and how they want to die. — Question

Well, yes, it's true choice exists at every point along the way to almost anything. However, the circumstances surrounding these choices are very different for a suicidal person. It's coercion, subtle and almost imperceptible, and most don't see it. I think your sense of choice (in suicide) is so broad that in such a world the possibility of there being situations where we don't have choice is zero. That I think isn't good because, to say the least, it ignores the complexity of human nature and behavior.

however, I don't think we've evolved to the point of being concerned for the welfare and lives of others to such an extent that suicide would appear morally wrong. — Question

Suicide is not morally wrong. It's irrational (most of the time).

Mozart had to work very hard for it. — Agustino

Debatable...

Maybe you do have something to contribute to society, but you'll never know it unless you try it with your whole being. — Agustino

What is "your whole being"? Why does contribution require this? You've acknowledged that your focus on discipline and hard work has led to a lack of "joy" in life.

Most of the people are too lazy to work as hard as it takes though - so they prefer to have an easier life and be enlightened hedonists. — Agustino

What do you base this view off of? your own view of your own work as being above the work of those hedonists who don't work hard enough? If not, then how exactly do you predicate this admonishment on "the people"? (Forgive me Aug, I have to try to pick you apart about once every quarter here, at least >:O )

You've acknowledged that your focus on discipline and hard work has led to a lack of "joy" in life. — Noble Dust

This would be a very misleading statement. I said I sometimes experience lack of joy, but I wouldn't give up discipline and hard work for other things, because they do ensure me with a few things which, while not sufficient for happiness, are necessary (or if they're not necessary, they give you a self-esteem boost). For example money, free time, fitness, continuous learning, learning new skills, etc. It's one thing to look in the mirror and be like "Who's that fatty?!" and another to look in the mirror and feel strong and capable inside your body. It's one thing to be worried that you may get sick or ill because of the crap you're eating, compared to feeling proud that you're on a healthy diet!

As for why I sometimes experience lack of joy, I'd guess it's that I don't have sufficient people around who share my personality, so most people I know are either business partners, acquaintances (such as from school, neighbours, etc.), or relatives, and I pretty much don't enjoy spending my time with any of them.

What is "your whole being"? Why does contribution require this? — Noble Dust

Your whole being means to do it with your whole energy. Really do it. Don't kid yourself about doing it. Don't put in half effort. Give it your everything. As for why contribution requires this - well because contribution is very very difficult. If it was easy, everyone would do it. But most people don't, at least not in a big way.

What do you base this view off of? — Noble Dust

On my own experience of other people :P

your own work as being above the work of those hedonists who don't work hard enough? — Noble Dust

I don't think my "own work" is above their work, it's just MORE work.

Oh another reason why I experience lack of joy may also be because I always view myself as the underdog, who is always contrarian and has to prove himself right even against overwhelming odds - so the anxiety that that breeds can sometimes get to me. As in I can feel that something is hopeless, that it will never work out, but I will still go forth with it, even though I feel that anxiety and hopelessness. I've learned to bulldozer over such emotions over time, I wasn't always capable to do this.

This would be a very misleading statement. — Agustino

No misleading intended. So, if the difference is between "sometimes" and "always", as it seems to be in your distinction here, then yes, if that's what you stipulated initially, then of course I'll acknowledge that. I of course never intended to mislead. I shouldn't need to mention that to you personally.

I said I sometimes experience lack of joy, but I wouldn't give up discipline and hard work for other things, because they do ensure me with a few things which, while not sufficient for happiness, are necessary (or if they're not necessary, they give you a self-esteem boost). — Agustino

Worthwhile thoughts, but I don't think you specifically said that in the referenced context.

compared to feeling proud that you're on a healthy diet! — Agustino

What are your secrets/???

and I pretty much don't enjoy spending my time with any of them. — Agustino

>:O While I can absolutely identify with this...maybe our type should do a better job of learning to identify with the basic level of humanity? Basic not in a moral or ethical sense, but just in the sense of philosophical depth (a sense of depth that I don't, by the way, assign to any level of intellectual ability)?

Oh another reason why I experience lack of joy may also be because I always view myself as the underdog, who is always contrarian and has to prove himself right even against overwhelming odds - — Agustino

Right, I've seen this trend with you. In the best, softest way (or wait; maybe I should say it in the most violent way with you???), I think this is absolutely a problem of yours. You have a Jesus Christ Complex.

Mind you, I see it in you because I also see it in me. Try to be level-headed about this...

Worthwhile thoughts, but I don't think you specifically said that in the referenced context. — Noble Dust

If I think about my life, I think I'm too hard and too disciplined. I'm doing very well in many areas of life at the moment because of all the discipline and work, but sometimes I do feel the absence of joy (although there's also times when I feel very joyful). Unlike many other people, I'm someone who has fought for a long time to be disciplined. And don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have it any other way, but then discipline is not sufficient for joy (although I would argue that it is necessary). — Agustino

What are your secrets/??? — Noble Dust

Don't eat crap! >:O It's difficult to stipulate "how" I do it, especially now, as I actually don't have to "try" to resist any urges, as I just don't have them anymore. But you have to eliminate bad foods one by one. Say you won't drink anymore coke. So don't drink that (I never drink coke for example), but keep the rest of the junk you eat. Then when you get over that, remove something else, and so on.

>:O While I can absolutely identify with this...maybe our type should do a better job of learning to identify with the basic level of humanity? — Noble Dust

Okay, how do you propose we do that without getting bored, and feeling unfulfilled? :P

Right, I've seen this trend with you. In the best, softest way (or wait; maybe I should say it in the most violent way with you???), I think this is absolutely a problem of yours. You have a Jesus Christ Complex.

Mind you, I see it in you because I also see it in me. Try to be level-headed about this... — Noble Dust

I don't understand why you're tip-toeing around what you're trying to say >:O You can speak straight.

It's interesting what you say, but what use is putting those labels on ourselves? Oh, he has generalised anxiety disorder - oh I have a messiah complex - oh etc. It's just a label, it prevents us from seeing the person underneath the label - it makes everyone so labeled identical, and they're not.

I wouldn't say I have a Messiah complex - but I do like being the underdog and beating the odds. Not so much about "saving" others (although it can ALSO be about that), but more about being able to beat the odds - ie do something difficult.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/01/zero-suicide-the-bold-new-fight-to-eradicate-suicide?CMP=fb_gu

I think the biggest problem is that people are taught fake ideas about what life is like while they're growing up. Then they think there's something wrong with them because life isn't as they expect it to be (ie, as they were taught it is).

It's interesting what you say, but what use is putting those labels on ourselves? Oh, he has generalised anxiety disorder - oh I have a messiah complex - oh etc. It's just a label, it prevents us from seeing the person underneath the label - it makes everyone so labeled identical, and they're not. — Agustino

True that it shouldn't make people identical, but it's also true that the states of mind those labels represent are a part of the identify of those people.

True that it shouldn't make people identical, but it's also true that the states of mind those labels represent are a part of the identify of those people. — Noble Dust

My point is that the states of mind are more varied and more detailed than the label permits. Thus the label is always inaccurate.

I think inaccurate is too strong; the label might generalize, but it does so based on shared characteristics.

I think inaccurate is too strong; the label might generalize, but it does so based on shared characteristics. — Noble Dust

What I'm trying to say is really that generalizing is impossible or not helpful in such a case.

The generalization of "I feel depressed" is a shared concept that we can basically rely on. We can ask what the depression feels like; 9/10 times I've talked with others, we found much commonality in the experience. So we can self-diagnose ourselves as "depressed", and this generalization, "I have depression", holds up well and is not inaccurate.