That there is a world that may be different to our beliefs is shown, not said. It's not an "inference". It's demonstrated by the cup coming out of the dishwasher clean, and all manor of other interactions, with medium sized smallgoods and whatever else you might find. — Banno
Please excuse my butting in. — Banno
It's the same objection you're offering here, that our beliefs can be different to what we discover about the world. But notice that Philoonous qua idealist does have an answer to that, along the lines of coherentism. — Wayfarer
You have been challenged to explain how it is that we all perceive the same things, — Janus
Cobblers. I'm showing how language works, rather than defending naive realism.I think what you're instinctively defending is naive realism (no pejorative intended). You are shocked by the questioning of the reality of the sensable world. Damn it, can't he just see that my cups are in the cupboard even with the door closed?!? That they don't dissappear when I can't see them?!? — Wayfarer
(2) that no world can be imagined in which this is not the case.
To imagine is to invoke this "subjective" pole; so this looks to be tautologous. — Banno
I'm showing how language works, rather than defending naive realism. — Banno
The world just is as it is, regardless of what you think of it — Banno
(1) reality has an ineluctably subjective pole — Wayfarer
(2) that no world can be imagined in which this is not the case — Wayfarer
(3) that this subjective pole or ground is never itself amongst the objects considered by naturalism — Wayfarer
that the emphasis on objectivity as the sole criteria for what is real is deeply mistaken on those grounds. — Wayfarer
The world just is as it is, regardless of what you think of it
— Banno
It's a given, right? — Wayfarer
On the other hand, we can imagine that it is differentiated, that is that it is not amorphous, and the idea that it is differentiated has more explanatory power than the idea that it is amorphous, because if it were amorphous there would be no explanation for how we come to perceive difference. — Janus
The world is what is the case.
— Banno
For whom? And what was their purpose?
Always just half the story. — apokrisis
So, you were underwhelmed by this revelation of Causal Information as the key to universal progressive & creative Evolution from almost nothing to everything? — Gnomon
No. I'm a bit surprised you think this of what has been said. The world is what is the case. — Banno
The world just is as it is, regardless of what you think of it — Banno
Notice the difference between the world being what is the case, and the idealist view that the world is what we believe, know, intuit, hope, doubt to be the case. — Banno
this is something much deeper than a matter of belief. The cognitive process of world-construction is subconscious or subliminal. I'm talking about our whole 'meaning-world', the entirety of our sense of self-and-world. That is created by the mind but not the conscious ego or self. — Wayfarer
We seem to see directly the material event - the bruteness of the stone we kick or cup we smash - but not so directly the global organising purpose or finality involved. — apokrisis
No.Isn't that just another way of saying that its reality is a given? — Wayfarer
Sure, "The cognitive process of world-construction is subconscious or subliminal. I'm talking about our whole 'meaning-world', the entirety of our sense of self-and-world. That is created by the mind but not the conscious ego or self" using the stuff around us.this is something much deeper than a matter of belief. The cognitive process of world-construction is subconscious or subliminal. I'm talking about our whole 'meaning-world', the entirety of our sense of self-and-world. That is created by the mind but not the conscious ego or self. — Wayfarer
Well, you said:
The world just is as it is, regardless of what you think of it
— Banno
Isn't that just another way of saying that its reality is a given? What else could it possibly mean? — Wayfarer
If the world reveals itself to the degree it can frustrate our desires, then dialectically this epistemology of truth demands the existence of those desires as the other half of its egocentric equation. — apokrisis
“All reality is subjective appearance.
This must constitute the great, fundamental
admission even of biology.”
—Jakob von Uexküll, Theoretical Biology
Well, you keep replying to my posts...Do (you) think someone cares? — apokrisis
in response to my simple "If the world reveals itself to the degree it can frustrate our desires, then dialectically this epistemology of truth demands the existence of those desires as the other half of its egocentric equation. — apokrisis
You are disparaging of "The world is all that is the case", but have offered nothing coherent, no alternative and certainly not a refutation. Instead you offer trivial disparaging comments.The world just is as it is, regardless of what you think of it — Wayfarer
Only if we make it so. — Banno
Eusocial doesn't quite cover it as that applies to a social organism and hive mind at the level of ants and bees.
Humans have their biology – the eusociality of a chimp troop – but then also the further levels of semiosis that result from language and logic. So it is this further level that arguably is first and foremost these days. Well it was language until logic started to take over once science could harness fossil fuels through technology.
So the question of political organisation – what constitutes the fair and just – has ramped up through some actual sweeping transitions. We have evolved from ape troops to agricultural empires to free trade/fossil fuel economic networks.
Good and bad, fair and just, are terms that take some redefining as we move on up this hierarchy of dissipative order. — apokrisis
You are disparaging of "The world is all that is the case", but have offered nothing coherent, no alternative and certainly not a refutation. — Banno
The "reality" of the world - that some things are the case - cannot be called into question. — Banno
There are three problems - the puzzle of other people, the fact that we are sometimes wrong, and the inevitability of novelty - each of which points to there being meadows and butterflies and other people, despite what you have in mind. I think you know that idealism won't cut it." — Banno
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