But, I have the impression that you believe that all human beings have mental phenomena, regardless if they have dreams or not, hallucinations or not, etc — Richard B
I can ask someone to recommend a funny movie, and they can deliver, but I don't think it makes much sense to treat being funny as some mind-independent property of movies. — Michael
But are extension in space and motion likewise not in external objects? — Count Timothy von Icarus
But it also makes no sense, for the reasons given, to say that red is no more than my-perception-of red. — Banno
But the Standard Model says absolutely nothing about trees, cats, bacteria, etc. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Not "what", but "who", surely?What draws that line? — Mp202020
The experience of your companion doesn't matter, so long as they hand you the red pen. That's why we know about colour blindness - there is a difference that can be examined and explained.Any color, not matter the shade, how can we know it’s experience is as shared as the cause of its experience? — Mp202020
If colours are only a type of "mental phenomena" (think about that term...), then since your "mental phenomena" are quite distinct from mine, your red is quite different to mine. — Banno
Yet you can ask for the red pen and e happy with the result.
Red is therefore not a private experience. — Banno
but presumably the pain I feel when I stub my toe isn't "quite different" to the pain you feel when you stub your toe. — Michael
yetAs mentioned before, this is a non sequitur. — Michael
That overwhelmingly folk agree on some things being red and others being not-red shows that red is not a private phenomena. Indeed, the controversy surrounding that dress shows that colour is not private.... if red refers to the experience, then when you say “red” it refers to your experience, but when I say it it refers to my experience. If we are going to be talking about the same thing then we need something that we both have access to. — Banno
No. it doesn't. Well done."presume" doesn't mean "know". — Michael
Ok. one can lead a donkey to water but not make them drink. I don't know what you must mean by "private', then, but you are not using it the way other folk do. The fact that we distinguish red pens from black pens shows pen colour not to be private.No it doesn't. — Michael
So what.That overwhelmingly folk agree that stubbing one's toe is painful does not show that pain is not a mental phenomenon. — Michael
It appears that you have not understood the argument. Again, the claim is not that there is no mental component in a thing being red, but that there is more to red than mere experience.There is simply no connection between your premise and your conclusion. — Michael
Sure, in your somewhat illicit terms this might be so. What is shown is that being red is not private. That is, that there are red things is a part of our shared world.That the overwhelming agreement that some X is Y is not proof that Y is not a mental phenomenon. — Michael
Stubbing one's toe is not a "mental phenomena". — Banno
Sure, in your somewhat illicit terms this might be so. What is shown is that being red is not private. That is, that there are red things is a part of our shared world. — Banno
There's that verbal sleight of hand again. "Red" is not a mental property, whatever that might be. It's a colour.As a noun, the words "colour", "pain", and "red" refer to mental percepts. — Michael
"Red" is not a mental property, whatever that might be. It's a colour. — Banno
What if ↪Mp202020 had chosen touch - would you be arguing that being smooth was a mental phenomena? — Banno
I am pointing out that it is not only mental. — Banno
Sour is used to refer to lemons, etc. all the time. — Count Timothy von Icarus
... if "berry" refers to the perception-of-berry, then when you say “berry” it refers to your perception-of-berry, but when I say it it refers to my perception-of-berry. If we are going to be talking about the same thing then we need something that we both have access to.
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