Secondly I would point out a naivety in your reasoning, you criticise the anthropomorphism while then resorting to it to make your case. It is quite reasonable and philosophically astute to recognise our limited intellectual understanding of our predicament in finding ourselves in this world. This would entail a realisation that we cannot make any presumptions in terms of purpose about any purposes that we may be subject to. Indeed it strikes me that an apophatic analysis of what we don't know and can't say would be an appropriate starting point, so as to avoid those very anthropomorphic assumptions. — Punshhh
I'm not sure you are making a valid point based on what I said. A God that has a purpose and design we can never know is a relatively moot one. As I said above, "God is such an alien being to us, that his goals may be inimical to human happiness, and that effectively means nothing for the living/breathing human. Just because a cosmic/spiritual aspect of things supersedes the physical human, does not make my lot as a physical human any better. If my suffering matters because of a cosmic game that is beyond my control, it effectively means I am shit out of luck in terms of life being anything for me, the human. Purpose in a grand sense becomes meaningless for the human."
You assume here that God is an alien being to us. This has not been established, because God might be inside us, moving in us, the very quick of us. Also you assume that we can never know the cosmic purpose of God. But this does not mean that God, or someone who does know it can't tell us, but rather we are currently blind to it. Yes purpose in a grand sense may be distant, or meaningless for the human, but it might also be something more immananet and have a mysterious, or subtle correlation. Essentially I am saying that you are presenting a point of view on a situation which could be any number of ways. There is as I can see nothing definitive showing that the life of a person is meaningless, or hard luck. Yes, it might be, but not necessarily.
Again this is your point of view, however I am not going to defend religion, only to say that there is a grain of sense running through it.And I already told you that it is convenient how we know just enough from these ancient prophets that had this magical ability to tell us some partial truth of it. It is convenient that it is in ancient times, it is convenient that when we ask for justification, we can never know the whole truth, but just enough to keep the carrot and stick of following this or that.
As above, I am saying the cosmic purpose might be beyond our comprehension, the truth is we don't know. It might simply be like the plot of a Sherlock Holmes story, impenetrable at first sight, but when revealed the dastardly plan of Profesor Moriarty might be quite simple and obvious, even in plain sight. Anyway the point looses traction if one consideres that for example the cosmic purpose is the same purpose being played out in an individual human life, but on a larger scale, so equally relevant. Indeed there are numerous ways in which it could be imminently present and critical.If it is as you say, beyond human comprehension, it loses any matter for the living breathing human who must endure life as the mortal human. We become but pawns in a greater scheme that is beyond our control for something is never for us.
Just because a person is not aware of the relevant purpose in their action does not prevent them living a constructive and caring life etc. Personally, even though I am not aware of my cosmic, or divine purpose and have to craft my own personal purpose in life. I feel a deep reverence for this life and what experiences and opportunities I have been afforded. Not to mention my exploration of the subtle ways that those purposes might run through my being and body in this world.By logic, if we humans can think of a concept ("moksha"..union with a godhead..worlds beyond our mere mortal world) it is not in fact beyond our comprehension... If it is beyond our comprehension.. then we can never know it anyways..
There is a deep meaning in the story and I certainly don't see it having anything to do with getting bored in paradise. It is more about an inadvertant loss of innocence, or more precisely a step change in our development as autonomous animals(agents). Resulting in us having the capacity to step outside, beyond, our instinctively conditioned behavioural responses in our environment. Resulting in a crisis of agency and our having to take responsibility for our own actions within the ecosystem. So in a way Eden is our ecosystem before we got to clever and messed it up.but the Garden of Eden story, if taken literally is about two people who wanted more than what paradise had to offer.. Which seems like we were pretty bored, even in paradise. This does not provide much hope as nothing offers true satisfaction according to this story. If everything was redeemed, would we just get bored again in paradise? Anyways, even these ideas of paradise, or a more pristine time.. or a better time.. this is all so human, going back to the anthropomorphizing point.. It can even be an analogy for early hunting-gathering societies. The longing of early civilizations for an even earlier time when things were less complicated.
Yes, I am happy to leave religion behind here and focus on agency and our limitations in terms of insight and analytical thought. I agree with your summary here, although in the light of my ideas about Eden, it might add a twist in its use as an analogy. However I do think that some people do seek a vision of a grander purpose, even sense it, or realise it on ocassion. Also there is the farsighted pragmatic vision which I pointed out in the other thread. One in which humanity secures peace, its long term survival and acts as custodian to the ecosystem.Looking beyond the religious discussion here, my theory is that we are essentially striving at nothing.. we survive and then get bored and these two sides of the pendulum motivate us to make goals. We are put into the stress of living life and then must contend with the energy to deal with surviving and then keeping ourselves entertained. The Garden of Eden story as an analogy for this fits nicely in that framework.
Yes, I am happy to leave religion behind here and focus on agency and our limitations in terms of insight and analytical thought. I agree with your summary here, although in the light of my ideas about Eden, it might add a twist in its use as an analogy. However I do think that some people do seek a vision of a grander purpose, even sense it, or realise it on ocassion. Also there is the farsighted pragmatic vision which I pointed out in the other thread. One in which humanity secures peace, its long term survival and acts as custodian to the ecosystem. — Punshhh
And what then?
I don't know.
Presumably some greater (cosmic) purpose would emerge at some point. Unless there is no purpose, but only happenstance(because cosmic purpose is speculation)
Do you/we require a purpose? — Punshhh
That would seem an ideal these days. We are a colony though, so there's no escaping it. — Punshhh
Suffering is more negative than pleasure is positive. — dukkha
would you experience one hour of the worst suffering imaginable in return for one hour of the best pleasure? — dukkha
nappy training session — Punshhh
>:O The interesting question is why are they called pleasures in the first place? Clearly I presume you don't want to experience them because you'd find them hurtful in some way.There are some pleasures I don't want to experience, such as those found in the traditional list of deadly sins — Thorongil
(Y)there are some pains I don't mind experiencing, such as those derived from fasting, exercise, surgery, and so on — Thorongil
No, but you find such pains beneficial instead of hurtful. The pleasure/pain dichotomy is more superficial than the benefit/harm one.And to anticipate an objection to the latter claim, I do not experience such pains as pleasurable nor do I submit to them in order to feel pleasure. — Thorongil
..
We all want to avoid suffering. Even more so than we want to chase pleasure (one must first attend to their broken arm before concentrating on feeling pleasure). Suffering is more negative than pleasure is positive. Consider, would you experience one hour of the worst suffering imaginable in return for one hour of the best pleasure? Suffering is the stronger of the two values.
.
So why not just suicide? Suicide will free you from all suffering, ever. You'll never suffer ever again.
.Suicide is a the ultimate pain reliever, better than heroin. And the good thing is that it doesn't even matter that you wont experience pleasure again - because this is a kind of suffering, and you are dead. The dead can't be deprived.
We all want to avoid suffering — dukkha
Sure. Nietzsche wasn't infallible either :PPlato wasnt infallible. — Beebert
But this distinction seems to me to be absolutely vital. When we're looking for the Truth, are we looking for something that is today so and so, and tomorrow different? Or are we looking for something permanent and unchanging? When we're looking for morality, are we looking for something that is right or wrong only today, or something that is right or wrong any time?His worshiping of distinctions between what is and what becomes but really isnt is in a way a prejudice — Beebert
I don't think Plato thought there must be one.Just because I can imagine a straight line doesnt mean there must be one. — Beebert
lol - I have quite the opposite impression. The Greeks, including Plato, Socrates and Aristotle were lovers of the body. Sure, Plato did say that the realm of the senses is inferior, with regards to knowledge, compared to the realm of ideas. But Plato's conception of virtue as harmony of the tripartite soul necessitates that the body be satisfied too. And Symposium does treat about the gradation of love, from the spiritual to the physical.He is one of those philosophers whose hatred of the body and the physical I cant stand. — Beebert
I don't follow.Nor can I stand what seems to be an underlying death wish. — Beebert
But his quest was deeper than this - it was the quest for the Agathon - the Form of the Good. Plato was a lover of Good.Even in his quest for truth and virtue one can smell something hidden... A mask(referring to our discussion in the other thread). — Beebert
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.