You must understand, if you find the Pessimist framework I lay out as "Wrong", it doesn't matter, because you are ALREADY in the (de facto) optimist framework of the situatedness of the society your were PROCREATED into and are now following, and moving about in. The Pessimist is just saying that we should question THIS framework- the one we are de facto buying into, and to STOP the perpetuation of this framework
https://asiatimes.com/2023/07/youths-desperate-four-no-attitude-worries-china/
young people in substantial numbers have adopted an attitude that’s termed the “four nos”: no interest in dating, getting married, buying a home or having a child.
Tang ping (Chinese: 躺平; lit. 'lying flat') means choosing to "lie down flat and get over the beatings" via a low-desire, more indifferent attitude towards life.
Forget about lying flat. A new expression is in vogue among young Chinese netizens: “let it rot” 摆烂.
No, it means you don't need the deep mental anguish in the first place; you're imposing it on yourself for no good reason. — Vera Mont
I didn't say we stay in the id stage. That's the beginning -- we can't escape it because this is the only thing in humans that is present at birth. So, let's just say that it's a given. Then, if you take Rawls's veil of ignorance in the theory of justice, theoretically, we could form a mind conducive to utopia. I said in my previous post that philosophically, as a thought experiment, it is possible.I think the opposite is the case. The more id -like, the more suffering ensues ( fear, rage, etc). The more effectively the primitive id is guided by anticipative sense-making, the better we are able to avoid profound emotional pain. — Joshs
Yes, they do. They're bullied into it. More appropriately, they should be mad as hell. Instead of escaping into 'spiritual' whatnot, they should rise up and fix the bastards that shoved them down to the bottom of a bad society.People at the bottom of society or other vulnerable individuals do not always choose to suffer from deep mental anguish. — Tarskian
And that's the point of a good society - or Utopia. Not pie in the sky.They may need help from others as well as the inner strength to keep striving for improvement in their situation. — Tarskian
Bullshit. The pastor, imam or rabbi may offer some psychological support, family relations guidance, community adjustment advice, but they can't do squat about your economic or legal woes.In my opinion, synagogues, churches, and mosques are well-positioned to offer material and spiritual assistance. In my opinion, someone in serious trouble needs both. — Tarskian
An interesting thought-experiment, tops of societies continuing to exist after the bottoms have eroded. Try this at home, see how far up the pyramid you get.A society can only survive through history if it can keep its very bottom alive and afloat. Otherwise, the whole thing will just keep eroding, with every new bottom disappearing, until nothing will be left. — Tarskian
Why? They should be mad as hell. Instead of escaping into 'spiritual' whatnot, they should rise up and fix the bastards that put into the bottom of a bad society. — Vera Mont
They can keep you afloat while you evaluate your options. Sometimes it is indeed preferable to start all over again elsewhere.Bullshit. The pastor, imam or rabbi may offer some psychological support, family relations guidance, community adjustment advice, but they can't do squat about you economic or legal woes. — Vera Mont
More precisely, "spirituality" is a stance or disposition towards daily experience (like e.g. creativity) and not merely a means-to-ends "tool".Spirituality is a non-rational tool — Tarskian
Not so. "Survival instinct" is autonomic (like e.g. respiration) and therefore does need to be extrinsically "stimulated".... to stimulate survival instinct ...
I.e. metaphysics (i.e. categorical / absolute ideas) that is expressed via rational (inferential, dialectical) and/or non-rational (analogical, mythical) discursive practices.... by connecting to something that is greater than ourselves and which is divine in nature ....
Really? Tell that to Daoists, Confucists, Vedantists, Pythagoreans, Epicureans, Stoics, Neoplatonists, Aristotleans, Spinozists et al ... Each of these philosophies are manifest "spiritual" ways of life.Philosophy is not meant to do that and therefore cannot replace that.
This may be true of modern academic philosophy (e.g. Anglo-American analytical philosophy, Viennese logical positivism, Parisian post/structuralism, etc) but not true of contemporary variants on and applications of way of life philosophies (some of which I've already mentioned) such as (e.g.) rational emotive hehavioral therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, existential therapy, logotherapy, clinical philosophy, etc.Unlike spirituality, philosophyis not meant toassist with mental healthcare.
Not so. "Survival instinct" is autonomic like (e.g. respiration) and therefore does need to be extrinsically "stimulated". — 180 Proof
This may be true of modern academic philosophy (e.g. Anglo-American analytical philosophy, Viennese logical positivism, Parisian post/structuralism, etc) but not true of contemporary variants on and applications of way of life philosophies (some of which I've already mentioned) such as (e.g.) rational emotive hehavioral therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, existential therapy, logotherapy, clinical philosophy, etc. — 180 Proof
Is this meant to be practical advice? — Tarskian
The poor and afflicted have options? Other countries welcome them? Nor do spiritual advisors 'keep you afloat', unless you mean that some monastic orders run homeless shelters and hospices.They can keep you afloat while you evaluate your options. Sometimes it is indeed preferable to start all over again elsewhere. — Tarskian
How nice for you to be able to do that 'at the bottom of society', buoyed up, no doubt, by your pastor.As a digital nomad and nomad capitalist, I do not hesitate to engage in extensive jurisdiction shopping. — Tarskian
The poor and afflicted have options? Other countries welcome them? — Vera Mont
Which was? This can't happen, so why bother thinking about it?
So why bother responding to it? — Vera Mont
We could. It's harder now we've overcomplicated and pissed on everything, but I guess we could try. — Vera Mont
...a world whereby we still had needs, but they could be met whenever we wanted. We could turn the dials to make it harder if we get bored, turn it back if we want to go back to easy mode. There is no suffering in the "want" sense of the word. We still "lack" but those desires can be fulfilled easily, without tension. Everyone is harmonious in their actions. There is no struggle.
...especially if you have kidney stone, three kids and a wife working two jobs...But then again, in just a few months time, you can for example become a licensed truck driver. — Tarskian
The people at the bottom of society don't have the same solutions available to them as people with three months' computer bootcamp and a prestigious resume. But spiritual advisors can keep them afloat with promises of pie in the sky when they die - only they'd better not hurry death!There are solutions but people who are pessimistic will not see these solutions but only see everything as one big insurmountable problem. — Tarskian
So you didn't directly address this version of utopia either. — schopenhauer1
no, I didn't. Both non-being and dial-a-wish are perfect in their self-containment, so I didn't see anything to address. — Vera Mont
"Is THIS universe worth continuing if it doesn't meet those type of perfected/utopian standards?". — schopenhauer1
Not up to you or me whether the universe continues. Chances are, it will proceed regardless of our sense of its worth. If you don't want to stay in it, it's you prerogative to leave. When the effort becomes greater than the rewards, I'll take my own leave. I do not presume to direct other people, either way. — Vera Mont
By all means, go ahead and do what you think best.We can prevent it for others though, and follow the Pessimistic framework I laid out. — schopenhauer1
To live in a society where we were incapable of experiencing such things as unhappiness, sadness, pain would be the same as being colour blind to the complete palette of human emotion of what truly makes us human.
For this reason I don’t think Utopia is possible as life is about opposites ying and yang otherwise it would just be all yang and without ying. All black or all white. But what do you think ? — kindred
I don't believe there is a "we" for me to prevent or understand or influence. — Vera Mont
But the ‘I’ , and with it the world it makes sense of, changes its meaning completely , but subtly, every moment. You are not the same you from moment to moment , so blaming whoever came before ‘you’ makes about as much sense as blaming the you of yesterday for your current woes. You have a chance to start over again with each tick of the clock, because it s a subtly different you and a subtly different world
— Joshs
And yet people feel they can't start again because they are on a loop. Habits seem to become compulsion. How do we work with this? — Tom Storm
I am assuming this holds if you believe that we are on some kind of eternal cycle. And/or that death is not the end. But if there is a loop we pick up again, doesn't this suggest being is ongoing and consistent in some way? A ceaseless cycle of boredom and suffering. Are you hinting at a Nietzschean solution to recurrence — Tom Storm
They do, like it or not. And vice versa. But the influence of each on each is so diluted by numbers that it makes no discernible ripple in our personal decision-making.I believe this all takes place in a certain setting we call society, no? Seems people (by default) have influence over you by default. — schopenhauer1
Except China is not the most atheist country. — Lionino
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population)[as of?] with China alone accounting for 200 million of that demographic.
Okay, so then France will welcome all 4000 of us? — Vera Mont
https://taxhackers.io
Become tax-free as Digital Nomad in 4 weeks
Did you know that most digital nomads traveling the world do not have to pay taxes, but still do it? Free yourself, join us.
In absolute numbers, China has the largest number of atheists in the world. There are countries with a larger percentage of atheists but the actual number of individuals is always a lot smaller. — Tarskian
That much!? — I like sushi
China cannot be even vaguely thought of as an atheist country. — AmadeusD
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China
Since 1949, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), officially state atheist, has been in power in the country, and prohibits CCP members from religious practice while in office.[7] A series of anti-religious campaigns, which had begun during the late 19th century, culminated in the Cultural Revolution (1966–1976) against the Four Olds: old habits, old ideas, old customs, and old culture. The Cultural Revolution destroyed or forced many observances and religious organisations underground.[8][9]: 138 Following the death of Mao, subsequent leaders have allowed Chinese religious organisations to have more autonomy.
I would have thought Chiang Mai would be more like $800 a month. I guess people on that site are from US and want large space to live in or something? — I like sushi
https://nomadlist.com/faq
What is the source of your data?
It started out as a crowdsourced spreadsheet.
That spreadsheet held about 25 cities. That was a great start, but crowdsourced data has by nature challenges with consistency. For example, some people have a more expensive taste than others and will tell you the rent in a city is higher than the actual average.
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.