That's the good part. "Being drunk" is a somewhat different, less pleasant experience. — BC

For you perhaps. I could never get enough and almost always enjoyed it. Even the stumbling, falling down parts.

For most people, though, I think you are correct in naming "fun" as the primary driver. Escape from the unpleasant realities of life (apart from trauma) is also a driver. — BC

Indeed. There are several well understood causal factors. I think even this -

I mostly think the majority of people on one drug or another have a hard time feeling loved or appreciated by anyone including those without close ones to talk to. — Shawn

- is sometimes true and generally a by-product of trauma. If you are sexually or physically abused by a care giver, or brought up in the care of the state, it can be hard to feel loved.

But, it seems to me that part of the reason is emotional regulation through substances. Another would be simply thrill seeking through drugs. And then there's pure hedonism which seems like a non significant population of drug users, paradoxically. Does that make any sense? — Shawn

Yep, that's reasonable.

an emotional imbalance or ennui. — Shawn

I'm not quite sure what an "emotional imbalance" is. Say more.

Ennui does not seem like a sufficient cause. Ennui -- listlessness and dissatisfaction arising from a lack of occupation or excitement.. "he succumbed to ennui and despair". The definition (and many synonyms) don't seem to be sufficient to cause a flight to hard drugs for escape: boredom, tedium, listlessness, lethargy, lassitude, languor, restlessness, weariness, sluggishness, enervation, malaise, dissatisfaction, and so on. Someone who is "sluggish" would be more likely to resort to coffee than meth, wouldn't they? (They would if they were good Methodists, but I suppose a lot addicts are not Methodist.)

Despair, though, that seems like a sufficient cause. Despair, anomie, untreated major depression, extreme poverty (not by itself, but in conjunction with other factors), intense loneliness, feeling abandoned, the sense of not having a future worth living for (but not leading to suicide), and so on.

emotional regulation through substances. Another would be simply thrill seeking through drugs. — Shawn

So yes, emotional regulation as you say.

Thrill seeking is probably a driver too -- one that can trap the thrill seeker into coming back rather regularly for more thrills.

Let's not overlook the fact that drugs are not only sought out, they are also pushed. Methamphetamine wasn't called into common usage by thrill seekers always whining about there just not being any exciting drugs around. Meth was introduced to communities across the country by motorcycle gangs (Hells Angels) who had an interest in developing a market. Same thing goes for cocaine and heroin. People in small towns didn't wake up one day and say, "You know, we need heavy duty uppers and downers here in this fine small town. Let's help our good neighbors out by setting up contacts with a Mexican drug cartel and start a business here."

No. It was the other way around.

Indeed, one could almost say that hard drug producing countries (Myanmar, Afghanistan (opiates), Columbia (cocaine), China and Mexico (fentanyl) are engaged in biowarfare by flooding the United States and Europe (and other places) with drugs whose long term (or in the case of fentanyl--short term) use may result in death or disability.

I'm not quite sure what an "emotional imbalance" is. Say more. — BC

Well, I think it appeals to those with mental disorders who seek out self medication. Just take the example of ADHD, they have a much higher statistical likelihood of trying marijuana for their diagnosis, whether it was labeled or not. Again, trauma seems like a high confounding factor as it was to Vietnam veterans who needed to feel comfortably numb after the horrors of war.

I have something to say alongside this topic, America was once very liberal about drugs in the early days. Some people sold snake oil laced with opium, Coca Cola used to provide cocaine once upon a time in their drinks and bennies with amphetamine salts were once popular. Then there were quaaludes and barbiturates people took. Only after the establishment of a Federal Drugs Administration all these excitements were limited to even eliminated by the Drug Enforcement Agency.

America is complex to say the least in what it allows and disallows.

No. It was the other way around.

Indeed, one could almost say that hard drug producing countries (Myanmar, Afghanistan (opiates), Columbia (cocaine), China and Mexico (fentanyl) are engaged in biowarfare by flooding the United States and Europe (and other places) with drugs whose long term (or in the case of fentanyl--short term) use may result in death or disability. — BC

I always thought there was some kind of government nefariousness in supplying America with drugs. Those South American narcodollars are always utilized to subvert the aims and ambitions of South American politicians and politics.

There's so much to say on this topic but am limiting myself to only analyzing the reasons people take drugs. I find it an edifying discussion.

One abused donkey left the ship, joined up with a herd of elk and found happiness at last — BC

The version I read, he wasn’t an abuse victim, he’d been hiking with his family in California and something frightened him and he ran away. They said they were thrilled to see that he’d been found (although it seems far from certain it’s the same donkey.)

There's so much to say on this topic but am limiting myself to only analyzing the reasons people take drugs. I find it an edifying discussion. — Shawn

Might also be useful to recognise the distinction between narcotics and hallucinogens. They’re very different. I don’t know where cannabis fits in the scheme.

Might also be useful to recognise the distinction between narcotics and hallucinogens. They’re very different. I don’t know where cannabis fits in the scheme. — Wayfarer

Yes, the distinction only makes sense for the purpose those respective drugs are utilized for. So, when it comes to thrill seeking of otherworldly experiences, I think hallucinogens might fit the bill...

I don't think it's really an answer to be honest. In my deepest contemplation, I think the reasons for substance abuse can vary widely but almost always appeal to an emotional imbalance or ennui. — Shawn

Emotional 'imbalance' is not an isolated, personal failing. Ennui may come into it with the upper wage earners, but the general malaise of modern society affects everyone in one way or another. We have a deeply dysfunctional civilization, in all kinds of denial about all kinds of reality, wherein people are required to cope with a hundred contradictions every day. We don't all cope equally well.

We don't all cope equally well. — Vera Mont

Is escapism and the distractions some drugs offer a coping mechanism? I think we're getting into the discussion about reasons why people take drugs as a coping mechanism...

it can be hard to feel loved — Tom Storm

That's how bicyclists feel when they get rained on a lot -- "It always rains on the unloved!"

I read the same version you read. I modified my narrative for narrative purposes and to harmonize with what Vera Mont had said (about sailing, volunteering to help abused donkeys) and so on. Flights of fancy are a drug I abuse periodically, but I never abuse donkeys.

Is escapism and the distractions some drugs offer a coping mechanism? — Shawn

Most notably alcohol, the Ur treatment for stress and anxiety.
To a lesser degree, some intense group activities also help mitigate the malaise of disjointed societies. Religious zealotry, sports fanaticism, celebrity worship, political jingoism all provide a sense of social belonging and security. Of course, they, too, can be enhanced by some drugs.

@BC @Vera Mont I, again, appreciate the comments and advice you have given me. I just had a day off yesterday and nothing resulted despite my anticipation in so long. It dragged on and on as I sulked in maddening internal silence. As night continued on I decided to watch The Seventh Seal from 1958 and a video essay on it. I had never seen it but it seemed to encapsulate my existential worries.

The maddening nothingness that others attempt to intellectually obscure with manufactured certainty and the absurdness of continuing on. To play chess with death rather than give in to his beckoning call.

You probably shouldn't be alone. It sounds as if you're in a state of mind that, if you can't think of a way to change it, you should get help with. At least support from someone you trust.

Judging by your post of 3 days ago, you are performing at a perfectly acceptable level. That's an important element in judging one's state of mind.

I love The Seventh Seal, and several other Bergman films, but he's not your go-to director for sunny up-lift.

The maddening nothingness that others attempt to intellectually obscure with manufactured certainty and the absurdness of continuing on. To play chess with death rather than give in to his beckoning call. — substantivalism

Gloom and doom can be as manufactured as certainty and absurdity. I don't know whether you are clinically depressed or are just doom-looping. If it's the latter, well... stop doing that. Depression gets tossed around too much. IS someone really clinically depressed, or are they lonely and angry? Tired? Isolated? Frustrated? Burdened with too many problems to deal with? Antidepressants will not help those sorts of things.

Meaning and satisfaction in life (as opposed to meaninglessness and nothingness) comes out of relationship with others. The deeper and more complex the relationships, the ore meaning and satisfaction. There are many ways to relate beside the primary love/sex connection. Friendship, co-workers, colleagues engaged in common cause: politics, the environment, participation in sport, religious activity... whatever.

Just for reference, how old are you now? What kind of connections do you have with other people, at work and outside of work? Family? Friends? Romantic partner?

Many of my 77 years have been shadowed by what was diagnosed as depression. Looking back, I'd say some of the depression was self-inflicted by ignorance and bad decisions about life, work and romance. I was at times too stupid to figure out how to live a more satisfying life. Now that I'm an old man, it's much clearer what I should have done -- 20/20 hindsight about 50 years too late.

I don't know if this helps. Does it?

You probably shouldn't be alone. It sounds as if you're in a state of mind that, if you can't think of a way to change it, you should get help with. At least support from someone you trust. — Vera Mont

Perhaps the way I wrote it created a false sense of worry and I apologize for that. I can assure you such existential worries of such intensity left me in my beginning twenties. I'm a bit lonely on my days off but nothing so morbid entertains my thoughts anymore.

I love The Seventh Seal, and several other Bergman films, but he's not your go-to director for sunny up-lift. — BC

Why not!?

Something about the conversation that the knight has with what he thought to be at first a nameless servant of the faith, really in fact death, struck a great cord with me. Especially when he say,

How can we have faith in those who believe when we can't have faith in ourselves? What is going to happen to those of us who want to believe but aren't able to? And what is to become of those who neither want to nor are capable of believing?

Showcasing such deepened worries about whether the ground of thought we lay upon is as certain to hold our weight as we entertain ourselves. A trouble I have had for months if not years now as I've bounced from one ideological attractor to another in pursuit of certainty only to step back in undecisive worry.

Why can't I kill God within me? Why does He live on in this painful and humiliating way even though I curse Him and want to tear Him out of my heart? Why, in spite of everything, is He a baffling reality that I can't shake off? Do you hear me?

A desperate barrage of questions about the desire for meaningful searching and why, if it cannot be satiated, does it remain.

I want knowledge, not faith, not suppositions, but knowledge. I want God to stretch out His hand towards me, reveal Himself and speak to me.

My most favorite line of all. I've even posted something similar somewhere on this forum. That desire for the unexpected and beautifully strange to muddy our mundane daily lives.

I don't know whether you are clinically depressed or are just doom-looping. If it's the latter, well... stop doing that. Depression gets tossed around too much. IS someone really clinically depressed, or are they lonely and angry? Tired? Isolated? Frustrated? Burdened with too many problems to deal with? Antidepressants will not help those sorts of things. — BC

I would say I've never been clinically depressed. . . melancholy for sure.

Just for reference, how old are you now? What kind of connections do you have with other people, at work and outside of work? Family? Friends? Romantic partner? — BC

I'm 23 and have a rather nonexistent collection of social relationships. Workaholic coworkers who are rightfully preoccupied with there own lives. Friends who I've ostracized or they have moved on. Family members who are stretched across countries now and those I have immediate access to are troubled in ways I cannot solve nor can a pouring out of my own troubles satiate their own.

So I have searched for acquaintances but have had no long reprieve between awkward work schedules, losing track of time until months roll by, or just finding such events as few to far between.

In the coming months I will have greater changes roll by which might change this or merely compound upon it.

I'm a bit lonely on my days off but nothing so morbid entertains my thoughts anymore. — substantivalism

Glad to read that! Loneliness, unless one prefers solitude, is usually a temporary condition. Even if you don't actively seek out companionship, chance meetings happen all the time.
Disillusionment with the civilized world, however, once it's happened, is almost impossible to undo.
I say almost, because some people nevertheless manage it.

I'm 23 and have a rather nonexistent collection of social relationships. Workaholic coworkers... — substantivalism

A possibly useful idea I can share: It takes time to become a person situated securely 'in the world'. 23 is too soon to arrive. You've had some immediate success in school and work, and that's good. But don't be too impatient. Our brains aren't even fully formed till around 25 or 26. After that, it's a slow process to build a good life--one in which we know where we are going, we know what we desire to achieve, we have some kind of plan, and we are on our way. There are no guarantees that one will be successful.

It took me quite a while to figure all this out--I have had just the last few years to enjoy knowing who I am, understanding where I have been, what's coming up (at 77, one is into the last few chapters (maybe pages) of the book). I'm not complaining; my life was, over all, good. I had good friends; I loved and was loved; I had pretty good health; I was reasonably happy much of the time. Regrets? Sure. Mistakes? Absolutely.

So, good luck to you.

It took me quite a while to figure all this out--I have had just the last few years to enjoy knowing who I am, understanding where I have been, what's coming up (at 77, one is into the last few chapters (maybe pages) of the book). I'm not complaining; my life was, over all, good. I had good friends; I loved and was loved; I had pretty good health; I was reasonably happy much of the time. Regrets? Sure. Mistakes? Absolutely. — BC

I'm pretty sure you're doing well health wise. I haven't heard of elderly putting drugs on their bucket list, have you?

I haven't heard of elderly putting drugs on their bucket list, have you? — Shawn

Well, just the one...

Hey this is in Pollitico today, about weed drinks (i.e. beverages infused with THC.) Gotta say, if THC Iced Tea were available near where I live, I'd be all in. (It's probably better that they're not :yikes: )

Wait until Philip Morris and Budweiser put the stuff into their products, laws permitting in select states...

Most Western countries got it wrong when it comes to drugs. Alcohol is among the most dangerous drugs while it is legal. This website provides a list of the top ten dangerous drugs which alcohol sits on the top while marijuana, LSD, and the like are absent in this list!

Though sympathetic, I used to look down on those who had ‘allowed’ themselves to become heavily addicted. Yet I myself have suffered enough unrelenting PTSD symptoms to have known, enjoyed and appreciated the great release upon consuming alcohol and/or THC.

Typically societally overlooked is that intense addiction usually doesn’t originate from a bout of boredom, where a person consumed recreationally but became heavily hooked on a self-medicating substance that eventually destroyed their life and even those of loved-ones.

More accurately: the greater the drug-induced euphoria or escape one attains from its use, the more one wants to repeat the experience; and the more intolerable one finds their sober reality, the more pleasurable that escape will likely be perceived. In other words: the greater one’s mental pain or trauma while sober, the greater the need for escape from reality, thus the more addictive the euphoric escape-form will likely be.

Especially when the substance abuse is due to past formidable mental trauma, the lasting solitarily-suffered turmoil can readily make each day an ordeal unless the mind is medicated.

Meantime, neglecting and therefor failing people struggling with debilitating addiction should not be an acceptable or preferable political, economic or religious/morality option. But the more callous politics and politicians that are typically involved with lacking addiction funding/services tend to reflect conservative electorate and representatives’ opposition, however irrational, against making proper treatment available to low- and no-income addicts.

Meanwhile, western pharmaceutical corporations had intentionally pushed their own very addictive and profitable opiate resulting in immense suffering and overdose death numbers yet got off relatively lightly and only through civil litigation.

They can, if you are not careful, turn you (pun intended) into a Heideggerian!

But seriously, something about society (or governments specifically) prohibiting us something which is not justified, is always going to be alluring.

Kind of like that image of a person in a room next to a red button which has a sign reading DO NOT PRESS. What do you think most people would do?

Yep.

A lot of the current elderly took a 5hit ton of drugs in their day.

So, what are your thoughts about this situation? Why are drugs so alluring to some and growing in popularity amongst (quite a few) Americans? — Shawn

They are trying to find in drugs what they could also find in spirituality, if at least they tried.

Well, this is a classically interesting thread (to me). I say classical and yet we are discussing drug use which might seem to some a more modern phenomenon. But that is not the case at all as several posters have mentioned throughout the thread. From ancient times people have chosen of their own free will to use drugs. But the reasons stated here span the ENTIRE gamut of human experience and choice. That is to say drugs are used for mostly base and immoral reasons as self-indulgent desire or acts of subterfuge and control. But then there is an exponentially diminishing scale of people that use drugs in moderation to moderate their own imbalances. And at the very top end of this scale are more spiritual gateway experiences that entail things like careful overdosing on LSD and Ayahuasca.

Like any aspect of this universe, it is all about free will, the only thing in existence. Within that limitless limit, the most interesting aspect that is primal to all truth is the order/chaos balance. As Leary mentioned, and even as @Shawn inferred as well partially, this experience now is limited to the physical realm. But the inference is weak, not Leary's comments. Sorry but here is the reason why:

Are we wizards, or jedi? We imagine such. But can we, physically, do it? No. Some accounts vary, but, let's say the scale of wizardry and jedi mind tricks is rather steep from almost 0 in 99.9% of the populace to MAYBE some in the tiny remaining percentage. And these possibly just presumed as wizardry effects are easily doubted as even their enactors have great trouble with any application of the scientific method, repeating the successes.

So, how is it any surprise that what drugs affect is what we CAN do, can choose to experience? It is no surprise at all. The limits are still respected in many ways. But altered awareness is a simple enough sidestep, an easier, lower threshold, of change. Thus, OF COURSE, sensory experiences are changed. But what precisely is changed?

Leary said it in a way that is certainly poetic and yet he is a fairly erudite communicator and successful in other walks of life. So, he is higher on that scale I previously mentioned, despite his unabashed hedonism, that just a self-indulgent type. I ask in all candor, how is an expert or professional in the realm of drug use qualified? Certainly, the people speaking about this experience from the external virginal point of view have not much credibility. But then oddly, especially those same people, feel compelled to judge what they see as erratic or incomprehensible behavior. This is nothing more than again the order/chaos balance.

Orderly people stay within their restraint limits more regularly. That is almost a definition for an orderly type of person. Science is indeed an orderly profession and skepticism itself is an ism born of restraint and prudence, all facets of a scaled order from the simple coward all the way through the rigorous academic skeptic.

Chaotic people, desire driven, do not stay within limits as a pattern. Their pattern is the anti-pattern, born of desire. This freedom is JUST AS critical to real wisdom as is order and restraint. Wisdom is in fact best defined as a perfect and maximal balance of both order and chaos. Both aspects of this definition are relevant and critical to wisdom. That is balance is the obvious part. But the unobvious part is the amplitude, the maximalization.

Maximal freedom means that any and every choice has been experienced and balanced. If you have not had the experience you are trapped on the fear and order side, the coward's side. It is a tautology that experience IS NEVER best had from one side or the other. All emotive paths lead objectively to objective moral truth. And that is balanced and maximized order and chaos. Therefore, one MUST, to be wise, risk experience.

If you wish for a defense of any and all chaotic and self-indulgent behavior, then I just gave it. It matters not whether you understand or admit to the truth I detailed in the above paragraph; it remains the truth. Of course, many will assert that is only my opinion, and I agree. Yes, it is my belief and opinion.

But remember the scale. Some choosers of these acts are not just engaging in them for pure self-indulgence. Like Leary they are instead intrepid explorers of a new realm. That realm may not yet be understood well and the insights gained from it are almost incomprehensible to the ... fool ... that has never left his own village and yet is quite majestically orderly in character. Orderly people tend to stay put in all ways, and all branches of conservatism and skepticism lean quite heavily towards stagnation and death as entirely stable. Likewise, and contra oppositely, chaos types tend to flame out, testing EVERY whim too often and becoming by turns restrained to certain patterns of freedom, then a hilarious ironical representative of restraint, as in trapped into their specific indulgences (addiction). EVERYTHING is only the order/chaos balance.

But remember that wisdom is the only goal here. Are we philosophers or not? Define wisdom. I did. If you are too afraid to try or too stable to try, you are too afraid to be wise. This DOES NOT denigrate the order types any more than the chaos types of people. We need as a whole species, some people to stay ashore in fear and hold the fort. But there is no moral way that such people are allowed to denigrate the intrepid explorers either. Such desire must be supported and especially the priesthood of that effort a la Leary and others. Even a casual observation of say alcoholics reveals a scale of 'functioning' along with even an addictive pattern. Nothing is not on a scale.

But order rises then as awareness is grown by DOING. And that DOING includes the doers, the merely self-indulgent, and the priesthood of experts, as well as the self-restrained orderly observers who abstain as their DO. In such cases all aspects of experience are covered. In such cases the whole of the species reaches with its meta tentacles into the new realms.

This is not at all the same thing as saying 'let's explore wanton murder' for example. The wisdom restraining us from that choice has long been earned (mostly). That is a subject for another thread maybe. There is still some room to explore that seemingly deeply immoral path also. No, drug use clearly has some valuable parts to it that do relate to advancement of awareness and wisdom.

I speak as one who has explored almost every type of experience in that realm to some small degree. I am a counter-addictive type of personality. Some part of me refuses to be ruled or demanded of by any experience. That tendency is brought on by the 'hidden' emotion in the order/chaos balance, anger. It is my belief that anger causes all of what we refer to as physical reality to spring into being. The tension between the fear/order emotion and the desire/chaos emotion is resisted by anger. Anger DEMANDS that fear abate and that the self is large or capable enough to bravely move forward by right of existence. Anger DEMANDS that desires are quenched and unnecessary as the self is sufficient as ALL to begin with. And anger is right. All rights stem from these demands of anger. But that is my faith, my belief system. It defines my approach to solving any philosophical issue. And this paragraph is only about me, my relation to this topic, so people know where I am coming from.

Awareness precedes most action, certainly understood or 'successful' action. Succes and 'right' are the same. These pertain to the objective moral truth, perfection, and the GOOD. So, we MUST explore the realm of drugs with awareness before the frequency of vibrations can extend into mind over matter type interactions more safely. That is my assertion.

There is always this mundane and entrapped derision of drugs by those engaged in religious practices. This is understandable. The revelations or epiphanies that drug users experience are sometimes similar in aspect to the religious experiences. After all I describe some of the high-end occupation of drug use scale as a 'priesthood'. This merely means a fairly high order/chaos balance. It means that the people engaged at such a skill level are able to order their experiences despite the chaos. They can do so precisely because they are wiser in most cases. They have the order skill to balance the chaos skill. But each path, religion and drugs is AN APPROACH from opposed sides of the SAME objective wisdom. Drugs are a chaos side approach and religion is an order side approach. They are effectively equals in some ways. One IS NOT ALLOWED morally to merely denigrate the other wholesale.

I may add more to all of this if people deign to respond to my points.