Try going into a shop and asking for the red pens that are not red and see how far you get. — Banno
No one, in every-day life, understands the difference of refering to Red, the colour, and referring to things as red-causing things. — AmadeusD
im unsure how a neurophysiologist would respond lol — AmadeusD
The body is not necessary — AmadeusD
My understanding is "no" — AmadeusD
This, imo. — AmadeusD
but I like to furbish my opinions with reasons. — Lionino
how is it that we have the distinction between dreams and lucidity? — Banno
You show signs of recognising differing uses. Progress. The physiology is not the whole story.This reduces to what we just think are one another's idiosyncratic uses of language. I say the pen itself isn't red, which is consistent with how the neuroscientists define it. Reliance upon experts to define terms in an intellectual setting such as this is reasonable. What do you suggest, a democratic vote? — Hanover
No. — Banno
Do they understand the difference between the cause of red and the experience of red? Likely not, but that doesn't mean that they are not talking about a different thing as when they say the shirt is red, when they say UY Scuti is red (a scientifically correct statement). — Lionino
"Well we have less philosophical problems with this stance so I am taking this stance" arguments. — Lionino
A child learns to differentiate between dreaming and being awake — Banno
Roughly, Ayer's argument is that:
* When we see something, there is always a thing that we see.
* There are instances where what we see is a different thing to what is "really" there; a thing philosophers call "sense data"
* This account must be generalised, so that in all instances, what we see is sense data.
So far we have watched Austin carefully dismantle the first two steps. The first in Lecture II, the second in Lecture III and IV. Now we are moving on the finishing step.
Before looking at Austin, let's consider Zhuang Zhou. You will no doubt be familiar with the story. As a butterfly, he did not know he was Zhuang Zhou. When he was Zhuang Zhou, he wondered if he was a butterfly.
It's a stimulating story, throwing one's considerations off-centre, and I do not wish to detract from it, but to add to it, since I think it can give us some insight into the approach Austin takes in Lecture V. We do know the difference between dreaming and being awake. We understand the nature of dreams, that they occur during sleep, usually at night, and may involve various otherwise impossible things. We understand what it is to dream and what it is to be awake - we must do, because we have the language around dreaming. If we could really not tell our dreams from our more lucid states, we could have no such language. We could not even have the word "dream".
We know also that the story is told from the point of view of Zhuang Zhou, and not from the point of view of the butterfly. If we did have the story from the perspective of the butterfly, the world would be a very different place. But the symmetry on which the story depends must be broken in order for the story to be told.
Considerations such as these have a close parallel in the final writings of Wittgenstein on certainty. The story can only take place if the very things it brings into doubt are held firm. And the story, being constructed of words, has to take it's place in a community of human beings.
— Banno
How do they lean what dreams are? — Banno
IFF they could see the start, it would match their experience of hte red shirt. — AmadeusD
You lost me here. — Banno
You show signs of recognising differing uses. Progress. The physiology is not the whole story. — Banno
there is a chance they would just see white from UY Scuti, even though it is red. — Lionino
We're just arguing over who's thebetterworse dictionary writer. — Hanover
In THAT sense, the star is not red. — AmadeusD
who's the better dictionary writer — Hanover
Meaning that there is some sense in which the star is red, and another sense in which the star is not red. Since we are not violating the LNC, this must mean that the word 'red' may take on related but different meanings. My original statement. — Lionino
Idk what part of the link you are referring to. — Lionino
The realest dream of a cow is, by definition, indistinguishable from actually seeing a cow. It is the dream when taken as a whole, and arranged temporally with the experiences that came after or before it, that is rationally determined to be a dream or reality. But if the dream is simply the realest dream of a cow and nothing else, and it is so long ago that we forgot about what came before or after that experience, there is nothing telling us whether we dreamed that cow or actually saw it — false memories, deja vu's, may sometimes come from dreams. — Lionino
But we can tell when we are dreaming. — Banno
Use is determined by... well, what we do. Not by what we say we do. — Banno
Not when the dream is happening, though. — frank
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