I suspect that your notion of hierarchy, when descriptive, is not the same as what I'm targeting. The idea that a program or system has hierarchies, for example, isn't the same as social hierarchy. — Moliere
Are you referring to "The End of History"? — Ludwig V
Are you saying that power is equally distributed in a hierarchy? Had you thought to ask those at the bottom of the heap what they think? What happens if I'm at the top and don't want to distribute power in an evenly balanced fashion? — Ludwig V
In my Indonesian and Malaysian experience, it simply is. — Tarskian
Again, what's on the books is irrelevant. — Tarskian
The above is simply unenforceable. — Tarskian
I am a foreigner in these countries. — Tarskian
You seem to be confused as to the role of the Islamic clergy — Tarskian
is substantially different from the army, the police, or the security forces in general. — Tarskian
Not specified, sure -- I'm reading into him. — Moliere
Aristotle has not identified natural slavery with being a barbarian. He has identified it with having a certain condition of soul. National or geographical origin is a derivative characteristic (4(7).7.1327b20-36). — Aristotle's Defensible Defense of Slavery, by Peter L. P. Simpson
It's his mixture of biology with politics that is really close conceptually to the race-based reasonings for slavery: he doesn't explicitly put slavish souls into a biological category, — Moliere
I have, though, provided you multiple academic legal opinions to the contrary - at least oen from within Indonesia. Malaysia, I am less ofay with. — AmadeusD
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Plainly untrue. This is entirely enforceable, i'm unsure why you would suggest otherwise. If a report is filed, and the police process the report, it can be prosecuted. End of discussion. — AmadeusD
https://discoveryourindonesia.com/jakarta-nightlife/
11 Unforgettable Jakarta Nightclubs for a Crazy Weekend
Have you ever experienced Jakarta nightlife? What was your favourite Jakarta nightclub? Share your thoughts with other travellers in the comments below.
You really don't know Indonesia, do you? — Tarskian
I happen to know a Malay homosexual who more or less fled Malaysia. — jorndoe
https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractions-g298570-Activities-c20-t109-Kuala_Lumpur_Wilayah_Persekutuan.html
Dance Clubs & Discos in Kuala Lumpur
I happen to know a Malay homosexual who more or less fled Malaysia. You wouldn't know they're homosexual without knowing them personally. — jorndoe
https://www.holidify.com/pages/gay-bars-in-kuala-lumpur-4392.html
10 Best Gay Bars in Kuala Lumpur for a Lively Night
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some societies just have laws that they can’t be bother policing — apokrisis
You really don't know Indonesia, do you? — Tarskian
He is almost surely exaggerating about "gay persecution": — Tarskian
Concerning Indonesia, you don't know what you are talking about, do you? You simply have no clue whatsoever. — Tarskian
I have no clue about how things are in Malaysia for homosexual people. — Tarskian
I personally consider casual sex to be rather lawless behavior. — Tarskian
I have, though, provided you multiple academic legal opinions to the contrary - at least oen from within Indonesia. Malaysia, I am less ofay with.
— AmadeusD
You really don't know Indonesia, do you? — Tarskian
The idea that a program or system has hierarchies, for example, isn't the same as social hierarchy. — Moliere
Please, feel free to critique several reports from legal experts in the region. — AmadeusD
https://www.holidify.com/pages/gay-bars-in-kuala-lumpur-4392.html
10 Best Gay Bars in Kuala Lumpur for a Lively Night
If you are a proud part of LGBTQ pride and are looking for a stress-free and safe time of the night in Kuala Lampur, then these LGBTQ-friendly bars are perfect for you! Here are the top 11 gay bars in Kuala Lumpur.
Welcome to the real world! — Tarskian
But it is perfectly clear how little idea you have about what that is. You are just babbling in the fashion expected of the standard crypto bro digital nomad. Not an original thought in your head apparently. Just going with the latest meme lifestyle. Fitting in with your chosen crowd. :up: — apokrisis
Indulge your illusions if they give you comfort. — apokrisis
He was most likely complaining about "persecution" by his own family who do not accept his sexual orientation. — Tarskian
Such is the reality on the ground. — above
This is not helpful. In the first place "hierarchy" was invented to describe a human social structure. In the second place, it doesn't matter much where the term came from and what it meant in its original home, if the export proves helpful.This everyday kind of ethological hierarchical organisation – the one discussed in its genetic and evolutionary sense of the dominance-submission hierarchies found in social animals – is then sort of hand-wavingly exported — apokrisis
Well, that description of power is yours, and I'm not at all sure that it is appropriate.You have this notion of "power" as the social good to be distribute. And you mean power in the restricted sense of the power — apokrisis
Not all that weird. The term hierarchy most often encountered, as here, in the context of social hierarchies and, in that context, is very often associated with what one might call "one-way", "top-down" hierarchies. These posit one-way communication and control and that is, indeed, at least very often, tyrannical in a social hierarchy. When our leaders stop listening, they become ill-informed and make worse decisions. "Bottom up" communication and support is essential for such structures to work.It is just weird how hierarchy is a term of abuse in the anglophone world. — apokrisis
I agree with that analysis. There does seem to have been a crisis in the 1970's, and I think the arrival of neo-liberalism hi-jacked the post-war arrangements. That deserves an account to, though I haven't got one. Perhaps one day. Not that the world is waiting for it.Western social democracy had this vision of self-actualisation as a cultural good to be distributed evenly to all. Creating a social safety net was what ensured that every person had the same opportunities, if not the same outcomes.
Obviously then along came neo-liberalism as a corruption of that approach. Agency became such a one-sided concept that the social safety net could just be abandoned. A cost to strike off the balance sheet and so leave "everyone richer". — apokrisis
Yes. I describe that as liberal over-reach. It is a painful echo of the rhetoric of the imperialist age and it's no wonder there has been a push-back, leading to the crisis that we are now living through.Human civilisation has raised the game still higher as we now can aspire to delivering "civilisation" as the scalefree good. But then we have to start digging into that to discover what it really means to us. — apokrisis
Yes. Prescriptions for the good life should only ever be offered as recommendations. Modesty, and a genuine interest in the other guy's point of view and respect for it. That builds community, which builds peace, which gives at least the opportunity for people to work out what is the good life for them.At least until someone comes along with another dumb one-note "good" such as happiness, or virtuousness, or being ethical, or whatever else tends to crop up in utopian fantasies of how a society ought to be run if only they were its dictator. — apokrisis
You are right that hierarchical structures can be found beyond the context of the social and indeed, the ethological. — Ludwig V
Hierarchical models have been appearing in increasing numbers in scientific papers in recent years, but without any fully developed reference on these forms. In this paper I aim to remedy this lacuna. My focus is on biology, where both forms of hierarchy have been used, but I have included references from all fields where I have discovered attempts to use these forms.
But I am talking about hierarchy theory as a branch of science and not in that everyday sense. — apokrisis
This paper compares the two known logical forms of hierarchy, both of which have been used in models of natural phenomena, including the biological. I contrast their general properties, internal formal relations, modes of growth (emergence) in applications to the natural world, criteria for applying them, the complexities that they embody, their dynamical relations in applied models, and their informational relations and semiotic aspects. — your link
Well, a lot of people have had a go at this. The first person who tried it is probably Plato. It's called utopianism and it is very dangerous. Next thing you know, you will be telling us that it should be imposed on us for our own good. The fact (if it is a fact) that it is a structure that occurs in nature is not a good argument that it should be replicated in human societies. On the other hand, if it is inevitable, in some sense, then it is already here and we can all go home.this polarity is reflected in the design of a rational political architecture — apokrisis
Yes. They used the same argument to justify enclosures in England as well. It's a case of finding a weapon, not the truth.The character of the Irish is that they are lazy and so must have their land taken from them so that English capitalists of better character force them to be productive for their own good. — Moliere
"incompetence" is a legalistic term, but it includes permanent conditions like Down's syndrome as well.I don't think that we make the same judgment of another person when we say they are incompetent because we're not judging whether their character is such that they are naturally incompetent: it leaves open the possibility of learning, as well as not making inferences about people who are of the same kind having such-and-such a character. — Moliere
I think I'm qualified to talk about social structures, in a philosophical way. Is that not a basis for a conversation? — Ludwig V
What would it mean to "put slavish souls into a biological category"? — Leontiskos
Yes. They used the same argument to justify enclosures in England as well. It's a case of finding a weapon, not the truth. — Ludwig V
"incompetence" is a legalistic term, but it includes permanent conditions like Down's syndrome as well — Ludwig V
whenever a civilizer comes along somehow the civilized end up worse off and helping the civilizer live an easier life — Moliere
You make it sound like the weather. But what you mean is that systems theories are now trying to apply it to social science and human history. Judging by some people, they are more likely to try to impose it. There is always a danger with these projects that you will fit the data to the theory, rather than the other way about. If you start off by saying that only systems theory knows what a hierarchy is, you're in trouble already, because you have defined your data out of existence.The systems view is now moving from thermodynamics and biology to social science and human history. It claims to add mathematical rigour to the conversation. — apokrisis
Were the Greeks better off when the Romans conquered them? — Moliere
You might like to think about the history of economics. For a long time, it clung to mathematical rigour. But now the limitations are being recognized and different, more humanistic approaches are being developed. — Ludwig V
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