Is it a disguise? The Likud party had as it charter "From the River to the Sea" Israel without any Palestinian state ever existing.Quite in line with what I argued earlier, the idea that radical loonies are in charge of anything is just a guise — Tzeentch
Netanyahu receiving 50+ standing ovations in US Congress was a bit of an eye-opener to me. — Tzeentch
That's how bad things have gone in Israel, Tzeentch.In Israel Netanyahu is considered a 'moderate', if you can believe that. — Tzeentch
Please give example of this. Because I think Israel is and has been quite an independent actor.Essentially Washington uses the same trick, but it uses Israel. Their interests align with that of Israel, and they have Israel to say and do all the things that would be erm... 'embarassing'... to have to say and do themselves. — Tzeentch
You should view what American politicians say on AIPAC conferences. That's actually also an eye-opener.Netanyahu receiving 50+ standing ovations in US Congress was a bit of an eye-opener to me. — Tzeentch
But the US Congress is in the palm of his hand. Of course it can be squigly and difficult to hold. But the loyal devotion to Israel is a bipartisan issue: both parties want to have good relations with Israel because they fear having bad relations will alienate their own voters. Not the Jewish Americans, but the Evangelists. That's why both parties are so in favour of Israel. I think that Netanyahu was one of the first to understand this, because other Israeli politicians thought of the US had been such an ally because of the Cold War and the threat of Soviet Union. But it wasn't just that and Bibi understood. As I've said, Bibi is a lot more than just an Israeli politician, he understands how US politics works and is basically also an American politician.Netanyahu seems to believe he has US Congress in the palm of his hand, but US Congress may as well be playing to his shitty megalomaniac/narcissistic personality. — Tzeentch
But the US Congress is in the palm of his hand. — ssu
Hmmm... but what did Israel do for the US actually in the War on Terror?It wasn't too long ago that 2000+ Americans were killed in American soil and it sparked a war that at least initially had widespread support. Here we know the necessity of fighting and beating a wicked enemy - something that seems to have been lost on much of Europe. — BitconnectCarlos
We disagree again.You may believe that - many do - but I don't see it that way.
I disagree with those who portray Israel as the beneficiary in this relationship. — Tzeentch
The US and Israel might agree on some policies, that is true. But if it's in the interest of Israel and also the US is fine with a policy, is it really then "Israel carrying out US policy".While Israel is carrying out US policy in the Middle-East, it is inching itself closer and closer to the geopolitical abyss. — Tzeentch
But if it's in the interest of Israel and also the US is fine with a policy, is it really then "Israel carrying out US policy". — ssu
But of course, that doesn't mean a Goddam fuck to you that your allies did participate in your invasion of Afghanistan, whereas Israel fighting it's own war of existence makes you state: " Here we know the necessity of fighting and beating a wicked enemy - something that seems to have been lost on much of Europe." — ssu
What blowback? Within Islam there's a lot of totally different struggles going on, which then splash even on our shores and then there's the question of migration in general. Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one specific conflict that soon will have gone for a Century. Separate is the Sunni Islmamism that started with Al Qaeda. Then there's Sunni-Shia struggle we've seen in Iraq and Syria. And then there's the now quite institutionalized Iranian revolution that is something like Marxism-Leninism was for the Soviet Union, which has picked Israel in it's crosshairs (and vice versa).I generalize of course, but for whatever reason the Europeans here tend to understand e.g. Islamic violence in terms of blowback so, basically, whatever Islamic violence befalls a people it is in some sense deserved. — BitconnectCarlos
Oh for crying out loud, Christianity has withered for a long time starting from the 19th Century, so that cannot be the problem.I feel bad for the Europeans because with the decline in Christianity they're left without much guidance and they're facing a people who have a strong sense of purpose. — BitconnectCarlos
Within Islam there's a lot of totally different struggles going on, which then splash even on our shores and then there's the question of migration in general. — ssu
Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one specific conflict that soon will have gone for a Century. — ssu
Then there's Sunni-Shia struggle we've seen in Iraq and Syria. — ssu
And then there's the now quite institutionalized Iranian revolution that is something like Marxism-Leninism was for the Soviet Union, which has picked Israel in it's crosshairs (and vice versa). — ssu
Separate is the Sunni Islmamism that started with Al Qaeda. — ssu
The Sunni Shia conflict started in earnest with Iraq and later with the civil war in Syria. It hasn't intertwined actually so much. For example for a long time Isrealis went as tourists to see (naturally from their side) from the Golan Heights the Civil War in Syria. That you can sit comfortably on a hill and watch the fighting on the other side of the border tells that ISIS wasn't targetting Israel (which btw. has created a lot of conspiracy theories in the Middle East). The Sunni Islamists simply left their wounded on the border where Israeli troops picked them up and moved them to a Israeli hospital.Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been intertwined with the conflict Iran (as leader of the Shias) and Saudi Arabia (as leader of the Sunnis) for decades. — neomac
Yes, just like Saddam Hussein then launched Scuds to Israel because ...why not. A populist move to gain support of the "Arab street" which people occasionally try to do.For such Sunni and Shia regimes, supporting the Palestinian cause is also about securing domestic legitimacy and enhancing regional influence. By advocating for Palestinians, such regimes attempt to gain the moral high ground and appeal to the broader Muslim population, which often sympathizes with the Palestinian struggle. — neomac
Why wouldn't OBL too go for the Arab street too? Yet I think that Al Qaeda was first and foremost interested in toppling the current monarchies and leaders in the Middle East.From Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people”: — neomac
The ordinary man knows that [Saudi Arabia] is the largest oil producer in the world, yet at the same time he is suffering from taxes and bad services. Now the people understand the speeches of the ulemas in the mosques--that our country has become an American colony. They act decisively with every action to kick the Americans out of Saudi Arabia. What happened in Riyadh and [Dhahran] when 24 Americans were killed in two bombings is clear evidence of the huge anger of Saudi people against America. The Saudis now know their real enemy is America.
Realistic?I'm just being realistic.
What I'm seeing in Ukraine and what I'm seeing in Israel are quite similar patterns, except that every factor is even worse for Israel.
Israel has a population of roughly 7 million, and is housing a number of Palestinians roughly equal to that on the soil which it occupies. — Tzeentch
Israel has a nuclear deterrence [...] — ssu
[...] and enjoys military superiority over all of it's neighbors. — ssu
The sole Superpower will also defend it, [...] — ssu
Israeli losses in this conflict, especially after the initial attack that gain total strategic surprise have been minimal. — ssu
Those that don't like Likud and the hardliners are much more likely to simply migrate away from Israel than create a strong opposition against the current administration. — ssu
Israel not only enjoys US support, but also support from other countries in the West. — ssu
There is no desire on the Arab side to join Iran and organization it has sponsored. — ssu
This is simply false and your confusing things.Israel certainly does not enjoy military superiority in that area. It has suffered defeats against Hezbollah in the past, and the balance of power today is probably closer than it was back then. — Tzeentch
Oh for crying out loud, Christianity has withered for a long time starting from the 19th Century, so that cannot be the problem. — ssu
It can win the conventional armies and air forces of it's neighbors. What Israel cannot do is to venture out into Lebanon, Syria, Jordan or Egypt and occupy those countries.
It's from the River to the Sea. Not further.
Well over for 100 years... so I'm not holding my breath.It is the problem. It's an ongoing problem. — BitconnectCarlos
A large portion of the world sympathizing with it and even considering it justified? Really????What happened on 10/7 was - and I don't use this word lightly - straight-up demonic. Yet you have a large portion of the world sympathizing with it and even considering it justified. — BitconnectCarlos
Indeed. Yet annexing territory is one of the most difficult things for any state to get acceptance from other states. Just look at the response of Russia annexing parts of Ukraine. Or Morocco with Spanish Sahara.Which in all fairness has already been achieved at some points. — BitconnectCarlos
Hence it's easy to defend.Israel is the size of a post stamp. — Tzeentch
Hence the urge for "Pre-emptive" attacks: simply fight on your neighbors territory. As Israel has done.It has zero strategic depth. — Tzeentch
When you achieve strategic surprise, then Hamas was able to do October 7th. The lack of air defense equipment was not the only thing lacking then on October 7th. But Israel today isn't what it was pre- Oct 7th.Hamas alone was able to drain Israel's air defense system to critical lows in a couple of days. Hamas - they're nobody on the military power scale. — Tzeentch
Incredible bullshit. Where general @Tzeentch gets his facts I don't know.Against modern swarming tactics Israel's air defense would stand no chance. At that point, it becomes a sitting duck. — Tzeentch
Why would it be an Afghanistan-like quagmire? As I've stated, Israel won't occupy it's neighboring states. I think they learnt that lesson from "Peace for Galilee" hence any operation into Lebanon will likely also have a planned withdrawal.It would need a US intervention, but what is the US going to do? Stick its head into an Afghanistan-like quagmire x100? That's the BRICS wet dream - for the US to commit to the mother of all forever wars trying to protect Israel. — Tzeentch
Hence the urge for "Pre-emptive" attacks: simply fight on your neighbors territory. As Israel has done. — ssu
Somehow it has gone past your radar that Iran attacked Israel with 170 drones, 30 cruise missiles, and 120 ballistic missiles on the evening of April 13th this year. That's over 300 stand off weapons used in one coordinated attack. Oh but for you "Israel's air defense would stand no chance".
Because why? — ssu
The drone swarm hype is really...hype. — ssu
Why would it be an Afghanistan-like quagmire? — ssu
as if Brazil, India or South Africa see the US as a military threat. — ssu
Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been intertwined with the conflict Iran (as leader of the Shias) and Saudi Arabia (as leader of the Sunnis) for decades. — neomac
The Sunni Shia conflict started in earnest with Iraq and later with the civil war in Syria. It hasn't intertwined actually so much. For example for a long time Isrealis went as tourists to see (naturally from their side) from the Golan Heights the Civil War in Syria. That you can sit comfortably on a hill and watch the fighting on the other side of the border tells that ISIS wasn't targetting Israel (which btw. has created a lot of conspiracy theories in the Middle East). The Sunni Islamists simply left their wounded on the border where Israeli troops picked them up and moved them to a Israeli hospital. — ssu
Yes, just like Saddam Hussein then launched Scuds to Israel because ...why not. A populist move to gain support of the "Arab street" which people occasionally try to do.
Yet what has been the response this time? Some angry rhetoric from the Turkish leader and some angry rhetoric from other countries. And well, that's about it...
So these are quite different conflicts, even if the actors intertwine as you say. — ssu
No I'm not. Your simply not understanding, it is as simple as that.You're contradicting yourself. According to your own views Israel cannot go on the offensive, thus cannot rely on pre-emptive attacks to protect itself. — Tzeentch
You have absolutely no idea of air defense or weapon systems like the Patriot. And you simply don't read what I write.Drone warfare has greatly undermined lynchpins of Western air defense systems like Patriot, since the drones are too cheap and numerous to effectively combat them. — Tzeentch
It cannot occupy, hold the land for long of it's neighbors. That is different from going on the offensive. It does go on the offensive... basically daily. How many times Israel has made air strikes in Syria during the Syrian Civil war and even before it? Multiple times, so many times I've lost count. Hence it can indeed go on the offensive.As you have said yourself, Israel cannot go on the offensive, and neither can the US. So it's a forever war. — Tzeentch
Now @Tzeentch seems to be in his la-la-land dream. Seems you have absolutely no idea of just what neutrality means for a country. No idea.Obviously they do. Imagine not seeing the US as a military threat.
The US has invaded less important countries over nothing. You bet your ass they view the US as a threat. — Tzeentch
(30th July, 2024) President Joe Biden spoke today with President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva of Brazil to discuss a range of bilateral and regional issues, including the emerging political situation in Venezuela following the July 28 presidential election. President Biden thanked President Lula for his leadership on Venezuela. The two leaders agreed on the need for immediate release of full, transparent, and detailed voting data at the polling station level by the Venezuelan electoral authorities. The two leaders shared the perspective that the Venezuelan election outcome represents a critical moment for democracy in the hemisphere, and they pledged to remain in close coordination on the issue. The presidents also committed to deepen cooperation between our two countries on accelerating the clean energy transition and to continue advancing the Partnership for Workers’ Rights, which they launched together on the margins of last year’s United Nations General Assembly to empower workers and combat some of the most significant issues facing working people.
The relationship between the United States and India is one of the most strategic and consequential of the 21st century. The United States supports India’s emergence as a leading global power and a vital partner in promoting a peaceful, stable, and prosperous Indo-Pacific region. The 2+2 Ministerial Dialogue between the U.S. Secretaries of State and Defense and their Indian counterparts is the premier recurring dialogue mechanism between the United States and India. Through the 2+2 mechanism, U.S. and Indian officials advance a wide range of initiatives across the breadth of the United States-India partnership.
Defense and Security
The United States and India have established a strong defense industrial cooperation that looks at opportunities for co-development and co-production of important military capabilities for both our countries.
Earlier this year, the United States approved a pathbreaking manufacturing license for the co-production of GE F414 engines in India.
Looking to the future, the United States and India have launched an educational series that prepares startups and young innovators to contribute to the defense industries in both countries. The United States and India also cooperate through the bilateral U.S.-India Counterterrorism Joint Working Group and the Defense Policy Group.
No I'm not. Your simply not understanding, it is as simple as that.
Israel has the ability and likely the objective to destroy an armed force that attacks it or will likely attack it (hence the pre-emption). That ideally takes those famous six days or some weeks. But not years. It cannot solve the internal problems of Lebanon and it simply cannot be a "benign occupier" that would be tolerated. In truth there are footage of Israeli tanks roaming into Lebanon with locals clapping their hands. They were doing this because they were fed up with PLO in Lebanon. But it didn't last long until Israel's tactics of fire first and ask questions later made the local population hate them.
Yet Israel has learnt from Lebanon, that it cannot stick around as an occupying force. It can destroy the weapon systems, eliminate the enemy forces, but that's it. And if you would (which you likely don't) follow the debate in Israel and with it's military (usually with retired high ranking officers making the critique), this is even what Bibi's government is actually rightly criticized now: that it doesn't have a plan after Hamas active members are destroyed in the way that they don't pose an imminent threat anymore. — ssu
Drones are engaged with cheaper weapon systems and usually with AAA systems. A Cold War SPAAG like the Gepard can indeed shoot down drones, if it's target acquisition is programmed to pick up small targets. — ssu
It cannot occupy, hold the land for long of it's neighbors. That is different from going on the offensive. It does go on the offensive... basically daily. How many times Israel has made air strikes in Syria during the Syrian Civil war and even before it? Multiple times, so many times I've lost count. Hence it can indeed go on the offensive. — ssu
And do understand that the current Israeli leaders are perfectly OK with a forever war. — ssu
And then the US Indian relations: — ssu
Never has anybody thought of "decisively defeating" its adversaries. What would that mean?This is a long-winded way of saying Israel has no way of decisively defeating its adversaries, and therefore no long-term solutions for the problems that plague its borders, which was exactly my point. — Tzeentch
A simply ZU-23-2 has an effective range to 2200 meters and larger guns usually to something like 5 kilometers. A gatling-gun type system can be far more devastating for even a swarm of drones. Let's just remember that first uses of drones were to be practice targets or tow a target sock for AAA. And altitude you ask? Well, usually AAA can shoot ground targets too, so low flying drones can fly as low as possible.And what do you reckon is the effective engagement range of AAA firing against low-flying drones? — Tzeentch
And your consistently failing to describe the way that somehow they would lose the ability to control the area they have taken in 1967. Or earlier. How will Israel perish you fail utterly to say, only repeat that in the long run they will lose.Oh, they might be ok with it. But they will also lose that war in the long-term. — Tzeentch
It's objective is first to survive, which it meets. It doesn't have peace, but still it can keep it's Apartheid system up, which is far enough for the Likud party. — ssu
A simply ZU-23-2 has an effective range to 2200 meters and larger guns usually to something like 5 kilometers. A gatling-gun type system can be far more devastating for even a swarm of drones. Let's just remember that first uses of drones were to be practice targets or tow a target sock for AAA. And altitude you ask? Well, usually AAA can shoot ground targets too, so low flying drones can fly as low as possible. — ssu
And your consistently failing to describe the way that somehow they would lose the ability to control the area they have taken in 1967. Or earlier. How will Israel perish you fail utterly to say, only repeat that in the long run they will lose. — ssu
Artificially kept down? Have you any knowledge of Lebanese or Syrian history and the state their in? Oh, it's just the US that has put them there (of course by your thinking). You might put the blame more on the French than the US, actually.It is surrounded by Arab nations which have been artificially kept down by US power (regularly with Israel's help). The US could do that because it was the unipole, which it no longer is. — Tzeentch
How does it actually shift? By Egypt and the other neighbors having rapid growth, solving their structural problems and having booming economies and a highly educated labour force that then could make them to create armed forces that are capable of defeating the IDF?The problem for Israel is that it has given its neighbors every possible reason imaginable to not treat it kindly when the balance of power shifts. — Tzeentch
Yeah, well, AAA or any kind of Air Defence isn't designed how you think. And btw they would be 4 km bubbles. And that's just the GBAD, then there's the air force and it's fighters.Now, Israel is a tiny country, but if you have to create a defense network out of 2km bubbles I think you see the problem. This is simply not what AAA was designed for. — Tzeentch
In a world that doesn't believe in whimsical replacement theories like you. Israelis have far enough incentives to defend their country. Somehow you seem not to understand this, perhaps being yourself a citizen of a country that faces no existential threat from it's neighbors. It might hard for you to fathom this. For Israelis it isn't hard at all.In what world is it not obvious Israel is not going to survive the test of time? — Tzeentch
Artificially kept down? Have you any knowledge of Lebanese or Syrian history and the state their in? Oh, it's just the US that has put them there (of course by your thinking). You might put the blame more on the French than the US, actually. — ssu
How does it actually shift? — ssu
Yeah, well, AAA or any kind of Air Defence isn't designed how you think. — ssu
And btw they would be 4 km bubbles — ssu
So I'll just repeat: drones aren't a miracle weapon as some hype them to be. — ssu
Israelis have far enough incentives to defend their country. Somehow you seem not to understand this, perhaps being yourself a citizen of a country that faces no existential threat from it's neighbors. It might hard for you to fathom this. For Israelis it isn't hard at all.
The Israeli right has convinced, unfortunately, enough of the Jewish citizens that there cannot be peace with Palestinians, that this is the reality they will endure. — ssu
And actually people like you only strengthen these kind of attitudes with saying that the country is doomed, which reeks to islamofobia. — ssu
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.