:s I don't remember we were discussing whether the universe has a spatial or temporal end or not... — Agustino

We were discussing whether existance was circular or whether it had a beginning and end. Proving this from our our perspective being fourth dimensional (meaning we perceive space and time as changing and moving) relies on this understanding.

The universe is actually stagnant and only made up of space. Time and movement is only a stubborn allusion we hold on to from a 4D perspective.

We were discussing whether existance was circular or whether it had a beginning and end. Proving this from our our perspective being fourth dimensional (meaning we perceive space and time as changing and moving) relies on this understanding.

The universe is actually stagnant and only made up of space. Time and movement is only a stubborn allusion we hold on to from a 4D perspective. — ThinkingMatt

No we weren't. We were talking about the purpose of life, not whether existence is circular. What the hell does existence being circular even mean?

No we weren't. We were talking about the purpose of life, not whether existence is circular. What the hell does existence being circular even mean? — Agustino

We agreed earlier that the purpose of life (for arguments sake) was for matter to continually move. If this was true then at some point the universe would be in equilibrium (meaning no energy could move from one place to another) Jensen the end of the universe. Though we decided that the purpose of the universe was that it had to continually be moving and for this to be true then the universe could not have a beginning and an end but would have to be 'circular'. Which means the end the universe is what inevitably cause it to start - meaning it never actually end and just exists in a never ending paradox.

If this was true then at some point the universe would be in equilibrium (meaning no energy could move from one place to another) Jensen the end of the universe. Though we decided that the purpose of the universe was that it had to continually be moving and for this to be true then the universe could not have a beginning and an end but would have to be 'circular'. Which means the end the universe is what inevitably cause it to start - meaning it never actually end and just exists in a never ending paradox. — ThinkingMatt

This is speculation. Scientific theories don't cease to be speculation just because they're undertaken by scientists. The truth of the matter is that the so called "end" of the Universe is so distant, that we actually have no clue what it even means physically. Physical laws are useful at predicting things assuming that thing stay the same, but in limit circumstances the laws may be different. There's no way to take this into account in our speculations. We have "models" about what the end of the Universe will be. We won't ever know.

This is speculation. Scientific theories don't cease to be speculation just because they're undertaken by scientists. The truth of the matter is that the so called "end" of the Universe is so distant, that we actually have no clue what it even means physically. Physical laws are useful at predicting things assuming that thing stay the same, but in limit circumstances the laws may be different. There's no way to take this into account in our speculations. We have "models" about what the end of the Universe will be. We won't ever know. — Agustino

I 100% agree. Though it's fair to say we can only predict anything and everything based on the information and references we currently have. There's no logic in doing it any other way. So is your point that if we can never be certain, then there's no point even trying at all? If so I baffled to why you'd be on this forum.

So every death is a suicide? — Noble Dust

Or a failure, yes.

Weak-willed as opposed to what? — Noble Dust

As opposed to not weak-willed? Strong-willed? Idk what you would call it. We lack the guts.

How is the word "satisfied" predicated in that sentence? — Noble Dust

?

Just a brief follow-up to my other post to this topic:

For you, life is without meaning or purpose.

(...except for the things that you like.) :)

It's a statement without any validity or sincerity (or yes, meaning).

But what it does have is fashion.

Homo Sapiens, a social species, is a strongly fashion-driven animal.

Michael Ossipoff

If this logic is true, then our purpose as living things is purely to sustain our life and future life. With that I leave you not asking what the purpose of life is, but instead, ‘what is the purpose of continuing the life of all living things?’ — ThinkingMatt

The wave of life, traveling along for the last 3 billion years or so, is its own motivation. In the case of humans, who have the power of despondent nattering about stuff like this, we can decide we have had enough and resign. "The life of all living things" -- life in toto -- however, isn't ours to discontinue.

Not mind reading but by studying human psychology which is close enough. Most people live out of habit or because they fear death. There's really no "decision" to live usually. — darthbarracuda

Ah, so "you" really means "most people." I find complaining about what cannot be changed to be rather tiresome. Condemning the masses for their ignorance, myopia, and credulity on a philosophy forum is merely preaching to the choir and makes you sound smug.

What I meant buy this is the fact that we keep alive long enough to reproduce and create the next generation - hence 'continuing the life of all living things'.
My question is, what is the purpose of continuing this cycle? — ThinkingMatt

What is the purpose of reproducing? From a biological perspective, it's to create more human beings. Obviously. But let's cut to the chase: What you really want to ask is whether there are any good reasons to reproduce, do you not?

What's an example? — ThinkingMatt

Jumping off a building.

I 100% agree. Though it's fair to say we can only predict anything and everything based on the information and references we currently have. There's no logic in doing it any other way. So is your point that if we can never be certain, then there's no point even trying at all? If so I baffled to why you'd be on this forum. — ThinkingMatt

Sure, but you do realise there's a huge difference between predicting something in a few days, months or years, and an entirely different story in predicting something many billions of years from today right?!

We suck even at predicting the next economic crisis, you think we'll predict the end of the Universe? Give me a break >:O

What works at our tiny timescale (100s of years) may not work at billions of years. The laws of physics could actually change over such timescales.

As for why I'm on this forum, well mostly I'm not here to discuss science, but rather philosophy. I sometimes discuss science, but that's less frequent.

Most people live out of habit or because they fear death. — darthbarracuda

Most people, if questioned closely, probably would agree with Woody Allen: "I'm not afraid of death; I just don't want to be there when it happens." Dying is generally a pretty disagreeable experience. Death, once dying is accomplished, is beyond our knowledge. You know this, of course.

Most people live out of habit because that is the easiest way to live. Each of us have a long string of habits -- behaviors, thought routines, that we keep repeating over and over. Without habits, we would have to reinvent the wheel every time we did something. Thank heaven for helpful habits.

There's really no "decision" to live usually. — darthbarracuda

No, there isn't -- and that's the way it should be. The verb "live" is the default setting. Deciding to pull the plug is a momentous decision that we dwell on for quite some time (in this forum it is interminable) and with great angst before we reach out, grab the cord, and give it a good hard jerk, and then sic transit gloria whoever.

As opposed to not weak-willed? Strong-willed? Idk what you would call it. We lack the guts. — darthbarracuda

To be weak-willed is to suggest that the opposite exists. Weak-willed exists in relation to something else. If it's the state of everyone, then it's not specifically weak. So, if the will of humanity is weak, it suggests the idea of a strong will; the strong will that we could achieve; the strong will of a higher being, etc.

When you focus right down to it, every single behavior and action conducted by not only humans but all living things can be sourced right down to a mechanism just to sustain the continuation of life. — ThinkingMatt

So serial killers are sustaining the continuation of life?

Rapists?

Polluters?

Genocidal regimes?

All of those are sustaining the continuation of life?

we can decide we have had enough and resign. "The life of all living things" -- life in toto -- however, isn't ours to discontinue. — Bitter Crank

Firstly what do you mean by "life in toto"?

This statement has no logic - if we as humans have the power to create and take life away then for what reason makes you think we can not discontinue it as a whole?

What you really want to ask is whether there are any good reasons to reproduce, do you not? — Thorongil

Correct - If the purpose of reproducing is just a means to continue motion of matter in the universe - why does this require consciousness to do so? It would and could still do this without us.

Jumping off a building. — Thorongil

Ending life is important component in the continuation of it. E.g say you die. The engergy from your body is pulled apart and broken down by much small organisms as fuel. The energy transferred into these organism eventually becomes the next fuel source for the next living thing. Hence this is how death in life is still a mechanism to continue it.

We suck even at predicting the next economic crisis, you think we'll predict the end of the Universe? — Agustino

I agree - all our predictions are very likely to be completely wrong. Though we are essentially a mind, and the purpose of the mind is to understand. If we weren't trying to understand the universe we wouldn't be a mind.

I'm not here to discuss science, but rather philosophy — Agustino

The definition of philosophy is the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence,

The definition of science is the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world (existence) through observation and experiment.

I don't see a distinction between the two? As I see it science is just a means to test philosophy.

So serial killers are sustaining the continuation of life? — WISDOMfromPO-MO

Yes.

Ending life is important component in the continuation of it. E.g say you die. The engergy from your body is pulled apart and broken down by much small organisms as fuel. The energy transferred into these organism eventually becomes the next fuel source for the next living thing. Hence this is how death in life is still a mechanism to continue it. — ThinkingMatt

Firstly what do you mean by "life in toto"? — ThinkingMatt

All of life -- the biosphere.

This statement has no logic - if we as humans have the power to create and take life away then for what reason makes you think we can not discontinue it as a whole? — ThinkingMatt

I think it is logical; you may disagree, but that doesn't make it illogical.

Humans are late arrivals in the biosphere. We were not there at the beginning. We are not in charge of all life now, either. We can not be in charge -- such a responsibility is far beyond our operational capability. We are hardly capable of managing our own wretched affairs. We are capable of creating life like unto ourselves, which is no great credit to us. Rats and flies are also able to create life like unto themselves. Individuals aren't even responsible for their own existence -- their parents are responsible for that. Humans can't take responsibility for their existence until quite a few years after they are born, if then.

We can, one by one, end our own lives. We could, I suppose, try and end ALL life, from the atmosphere into the uppermost layers of the lithosphere, and down to the bottom of the oceans. We could try, but we should really not even think about it. It isn't our responsibility to end all life. That is something we should - just - not - do.

Ah, so "you" really means "most people." I find complaining about what cannot be changed to be rather tiresome. Condemning the masses for their ignorance, myopia, and credulity on a philosophy forum is merely preaching to the choir and makes you sound smug. — Thorongil

By most people I mean to say the vast majority. Not including those incapable of higher-level abstract thought, young children or the occasional and genuine genius. Psychology doesn't just apply to the "masses" that you seem to have a distaste for. But I don't know maybe you have a good reason for living, but I don't have high expectations if I am to be honest. I don't think you or anyone else has a good reason for living because I do not think there are good reasons for living that aren't dishonest, contrived or just plain dumb.

To be weak-willed is to suggest that the opposite exists. Weak-willed exists in relation to something else. If it's the state of everyone, then it's not specifically weak. So, if the will of humanity is weak, it suggests the idea of a strong will; the strong will that we could achieve; the strong will of a higher being, etc. — Noble Dust

If you haven't read Tolstoy I highly suggest you do. In A Confession, he explains how he thinks there are four general types of people:

1.) Those who fail to understand the human condition (the ignorant).
2.) Those who understand but focus on maximizing their pleasure (the hedonists).
3.) Those who understand and are able to commit suicide (the strong).
4.) Those who understand and who are unable to commit suicide (the weak).

The minority is definitely in 3.) And personally I would say most people are a combination of 1, 2 and 4.); most people have a vague inkling of their condition but wash their fears away with cheap pleasures. There's a few people who get a little beyond this and try to embrace life or come up with some dumb reason for living but they're usually obnoxious and twat-like.

Also I would like to point out that failing to have any good reason to live does not necessarily mean you have a reason to die. Maybe you don't have a good reason to live or die, but life comes before death so you end up living for a while longer. Or maybe you have a good reason not to die - but that is not an affirmation of life. It is simply what I said earlier, a reason not to die is a reason to kick the can down the road, to procrastinate on suicide.

That is, of course, until you inevitably submerge back under the cultural barrier and forget all about this for a while.

If you haven't read Tolstoy I highly suggest you do. — darthbarracuda

I haven't read anything about him that made me want to read him, to be honest.

1.) Those who fail to understand the human condition (the ignorant).
2.) Those who understand but focus on maximizing their pleasure (the hedonists).
3.) Those who understand and are able to commit suicide (the strong).
4.) Those who understand and who are unable to commit suicide (the weak). — darthbarracuda

These binary distinctions aren't accurate. An uneducated person might understand the human condition better than a philosopher or pastor; a hedonist is more often than not completely unaware of the reality of the human condition; a person who commits suicide has definitely not grasped the entirety of the human condition, and those who have the urge to commit suicide but do not, or attempt to but fail, often have the strongest characters of all. I have no idea where Tolstoy got the idea to create this fallacious set of inaccurate stereotypes.

most people have a vague inkling of their condition but wash their fears away with cheap pleasures. — darthbarracuda

That can often be true, yes.

There's a few people who get a little beyond this and try to embrace life or come up with some dumb reason for living but they're usually obnoxious and twat-like. — darthbarracuda

Do I strike you that way, then?

Also I would like to point out that failing to have any good reason to live does not necessarily mean you have a reason to die. Maybe you don't have a good reason to live or die, but life comes before death so you end up living for a while longer. Or maybe you have a good reason not to die - but that is not an affirmation of life. It is simply what I said earlier, a reason not to die is a reason to kick the can down the road, to procrastinate on suicide. — darthbarracuda

It sounds like you place no value on life. I've been there. I'm finding that when I'm in that state, I'm avoiding the steps I could take to rediscover the value that inherently exists for those willing to take the life-long journey. Beauty, for instance, exists whether or not you're willing or able to perceive it. The value of life seems to be related.

There is no purpose, in my opinion.
People are just doing what they think they are supposed to do, without knowing why.

I have been dealing with thought like why life? why continue? why not suicide? for a long time, and that's when I discovered the old PF forum and then this new one. I know that my problems are probably not philosophical, but I found many threads dealing with these issues on these forums.

I read through many posts and read so much advice what to do.

I was suicidal and really didn't know what to do.

I started seeing a psychiatrist and now I'm on medication, because I felt I needed some help. Also I visit a psychologist every week and deal with these issues in talk therapy. Maybe since March I started feeling better even back to my normal self.

But past two weeks, again I started feeling even worse. It started I guess when Chester Bennington committed suicide. I was questiong myself Why would he do it? He had wife, kids, money career etc., and still he did. Then I was like why should then I go on?

Last week close member of my family got diagnosed with cancer. In my head I was confused, I guess depressed and started feeling suicidal again.

That's when I came back here to read through some of the advice I got. I see that there are many threads here that deal with somewhat the same things that I go trough now. People dealing wiht similiar ideas and reasons why to go on. Of course I had to go through those threads and found myself confused even more.

I feel like I'm in a dream and can't wake up.

Deep down I don't want to hurt myself, because I don't want hurt anyone around me, but don't know how to battle these thoughts.

As for my regular day, I still go out, meet friends, play sports, have a great job and people around me. It feels like it just isn't enough. I guess some of you are getting really tired of posts like this, maybe giving the same advice over and over again.

If you think maybe there's some more advice you can give, I'll be glad. I guess that's why I post here. Maybe to talk to someone who went through something similiar or to read what to do.

My long term goal is to achieve mindstate that goes something like - Well I was born, I am alive, so I should live and wait for the death to come by itself.

To really see suicide as something irrational and out of the question. To maybe have some motivation to do something while I'm here, because right know in my head I believe the opposite. This internal conflict of what to do is just bothering my while I do any activity through the day.

Anyways any more advice is greatly appreciated.

Hey rossii,

I know a lot of those feelings, if not all of them. Another musical icon that I respected recently committed suicide, and it shook me up more than I could have anticipated. It elicits a different emotion in you than you've ever felt before. It's the feeling of a theoretical "mentor" who has..."checked out". It leaves you with a feeling of betrayal or disillusionment.

Of course I had to go through those threads and found myself confused even more. — rossii

It's an endless maze of ideas. It's wise to learn how to pace yourself when you read these things, particularly with regards to the topic of suicide.

Deep down I don't want to hurt myself, because I don't want hurt anyone around me, but don't know how to battle these thoughts. — rossii

That's also one of the main reasons that keeps me from committing suicide too.

If you think maybe there's some more advice you can give, I'll be glad. I guess that's why I post here. Maybe to talk to someone who went through something similiar or to read what to do. — rossii

The best advice I can give you is that you're not alone in your feelings, and that there's always a different state of mind available to you, and waiting eagerly for you, than the one you're currently in that is bringing those feelings.

My long term goal is to achieve mindstate that goes something like - Well I was born, I am alive, so I should live and wait for the death to come by itself. — rossii

There's so much more than waiting for death! There's an entire life in between. You have it in you, this life. It's in you.

But past two weeks, again I started feeling even worse. — rossii

I'm in a pretty decent place right now, but the road to recovery from depression is full of ups and downs. Just when you think you've got it beat, some new stress will make you feel like you're back at square one. But if you're doing the right things - seeing a decent therapist, continuing to take part in life, taking care of yourself - you should get steadily better, despite the setbacks.

For me, the most important things for maintaining decent mood are sleep and exercise, but especially proper sleep. Being overtired is too close to the way depression feels, and it seems quite easy for your mind to slip into its old negative thought patterns.

Of course if you kill yourself without a good medical reason (disease or injury resulting in unacceptable loss of life-quality), then your act, itself, is as meaningless and purposeless as it gets. Hardly the thing to do, for someone who doesn't like meaningless and purposelesness.

Also, even if you're an Atheist and Materialist/Physicalist/"Naturalist", you have reason to expect only a bad time as a consequence. Remember Hamlet's.soliloquy

You'll be saying to yourself, "Ok,now what? I've done a difficult quasi-purposeful act, to achieve...what? How am I benefiting from it? What did I get? The loss of opportunity for everything that I like? Congratulations. Actively doing something purposeful to get nothing?" Right about then, you'll be feeling pretty stupid...an understatement.

You'll be in a state more depressing,and fully purposeless, meaningess and hopeless, than any in life--but now there will be no relief. And one difference will be that now there won't be anything that you can do about it. Another difference will be that you can thank only yourself for it.

Maybe you were expecting instant nonexistence, as if you'd never been born, like flipping a computer's off-switch? Death at least usually isn't instantaneous, and isn't quite like that. Hamlet had a point.

I have been dealing with thought like why life? why continue? why not suicide? — rossii

Sometimes, for actions, "Why, to gain what?" is a better question than "Why not?"

The older you get, the more people you know will die.Older family-members, older relatives, older media-stars. It's just an expected fact of life.

If you think maybe there's some more advice you can give, I'll be glad. I guess that's why I post here. Maybe to talk to someone who went through something similiar or to read what to do.

My long term goal is to achieve mindstate that goes something like - Well I was born, I am alive, so I should live and wait for the death to come by itself.

Exactly. You know that, and maybe confirmation of what has already occurred to you is helpful.

Even if you don't believe that you were born because you wanted or needed life, you still know that, having been born, you now do. This life might end before you're ready to be done, but you won't have to take credit for that.

To really see suicide as something irrational

What else?

To maybe have some motivation to do something while I'm here

What else? You're here to do, not to think about it and justify it. Who says it has to be justifiable.

Who says there has to be meaning and purpose? An Eastern traditions says that life is for "Lila", translated as "Play". There needn't be any meaning or purpose than that.

, because right know in my head I believe the opposite. This internal conflict of what to do is just bothering me while I do any activity through the day.
[/quote

You're overthinking life, as if you have a need or obligation to justify it.

Michael Ossipoff

You didn't say what you'd be wanting to escape from? Suffering?

You won't know what suffering is until you commit suicide (without a good medical reason).

...intensified, hopeless suffering, to the point of outright nightmare.

Maybe you think you can make it as if you weren't born (What would that even mean?)

No, you were born, and you can't change that.

You'd be acting on a philosophical fallacy.

What's that? You say that it will be brief, or at least temporary?

I can't guarantee what your sense of time will be like, during the stages of shutdown during death.

You might not remember that there's such a thing as time. You might not have any sense that the nightmare can end..

But you'll likely have a sense that something really bad has happened, by your agency, and that you're in a nightmare.

Will you forget about the nightmare before the shutdown is complete? I can't guarantee it.

Michael Ossipoff

Will you forget about the nightmare before the shutdown is complete? I can't guarantee it. — Michael Ossipoff

What I mean was:

Will the nightmare end before the shutdown is complete? I can't guarantee that.

You might say, "No problem, it's over after shutdown."

But you never experience "after shutdown". Only your survivors experience that time.

What do you experience?

By the time full shutdown is near, you don't experience time, and you have no idea that there ever was such a thing as time. You've reached timelessness.

Yes, the body will shut down, but you don't know that, because you have no idea that there ever was one anyway,

I suggest that, therefore, shutdown doesn't matter to you at that point, and that, for you, nothing changes due to shutdown, because you've already arrived at timelessness. The body quits, and of course your experience ends, but you don't know about that.

Now, obviously it would make a difference, whether or not your nightmare ends before shutdown. But I doubt that anyone could guarantee that it would. Will you be dominated, right to the end, by a dread sense that something really bad has happened?

Michael Ossipoff

Past three days I've been feeling more suicidal than ever. The irony is, that because I stared feeling better I decided to finally go on vacation and enjoy it. Now I'm four days on vacation, should be enjoying free time and fun, and I'm feeling worst feelings I have ever felt.

I keep reminding myself in my head that suicide is irrational thing to do, but somehow I just don't believe it (even though I want to). How can I convince myself that I should go on? How can I finally start thinking with my own head and not become more depressed everytime I read through threads here that deal with topic of suicide (especially ones that try to convince you that life is meaningless, you're going to die anyway so why wait just kill yourself and be over with it).

I feel like I need to resolve this internal conflict that is inside me - I enjoy many things in life, find them satisfying - on the other hand these threads here convince me it is meaningless and it is not enough to continue my life.