Socrates makes a three-fold distinction:

1) Beds and tables as they are by their nature, the singular forms.
2) Beds and tables as they are made by the craftsman with an eye to the form
3) Beds and tables as they are made by a maker of images, whose model is the beds and tables made by the craftsman. — Fooloso4

I started this thread in response to a comment by Jamal about Plato’s Republic:

They all belong together and they're all important, although book 10 is weird and some would say adds nothing of much value to the whole work's argument.

I want to look into it in order to see how much value it might add. — Fooloso4

But the allusions or allegories in Book 1 of the Republic are woven in with the central themes of the work and contain everything that's to come in microcosm. — Jamal

One hundred years ago, Shorey held the same opinion, saying that Book 10
was "technically an appendix”.2

Many of the best-known 20th century commentators feel much the same way. Reeve begins his chapter preface to Book 10 by saying “The main argument of the Republic is now complete”.3

Annas speaks for many when she says: “Book 9 ends the main argument of the Republic, and ends it on a rhetorical and apparently decisive note. We are surprised to find another book added on”.4 She goes on to characterize Book 10 as “an excrescence”, “gratuitous”, “clumsy”, “full of oddities”, and overall, as a “coda” or “appendix...added to a work essentially complete already”.5

On the other hand, many commentators of note have argued that the Republic, like many texts, was composed as a ring composition.6 — Academic works

In book 2 Socrates said:

Do you not know that the beginning of any work is most important …
((377a) — Fooloso4

1) Beds and tables as they are by their nature, the singular forms.
2) Beds and tables as they are made by the craftsman with an eye to the form
3) Beds and tables as they are made by a maker of images, whose model is the beds and tables made by the craftsman. — Fooloso4

To what extent is justice in the soul like justice in the city? — Fooloso4

I am on my second and more thorough read through the Republic after having read it a few weeks ago, and I don't have a stable view either way. But certainly, Book 10 feels different from what has gone before. — Jamal

Who says that Cephalus is bad or contemptible?
It is not the case that he leaves the debate the moment he gets a difficult question. He engages with Socrates up to the point where he agrees but then he must leave to attend to religious matters.
He talks of old age in the wisest of terms and uses poets as support. Sophocles, 329c.

From the Perseus site (excellent with notes):
“You are right,” he replied. “Then this is not the definition of justice: to tell the truth and return what one has received.” “Nay, but it is, Socrates,” said Polemarchus breaking in, “if indeed we are to put any faith in Simonides.” “Very well,” said Cephalus, “indeed I make over the whole argument to you. For it is time for me to attend the sacrifices.” “Well,” said I, “is not Polemarchus the heir of everything that is yours?” “Certainly,” said he with a laugh, and at the same time went out to the sacred rites.[331e]

He is thinking ahead to his death and how to please the Gods.
He uses Pindar 331a to talk about the 'ledger of his life' - Cephalus is perhaps haunted by any wrong doings or injustice at his hands and wants to make amends. — Poets and tyrants in the Republic, Book 1

He viewed it as a critical part of Plato's philosophical argument, particularly regarding the relationship between reality, imitation, and the nature of truth. — Benkei

Imitation, Socrates says, is surely at a far remove from the truth. (5598b) Even if there were such a thing as the form of a just soul or just city, any existing city or soul would be at a remove from it. Since Socrates’ city is made in speech, it is twice removed. An image (3) of an image (2). As such we do not know the truth of the just soul or just city by looking at the image Socrates makes. — Fooloso4

To what extent is justice in the soul like justice in the city? Initially we may have gone along with the image presented earlier, but it would seem that Plato is now leading us to reconsider how much the soul is like the city. To what extent should our idea of the one shape our idea of the other? — Fooloso4

We can pose the same question to Socrates. If he is a second remove rather than a third, then what is original that he has made an image of? In addition, if the city of Athens is the judge of such things then Socrates made the city worse not better.

When he goes on to say:

“Come on then, consider this carefully. The maker of the image, the imitator, according to us knows nothing of what is, but does know what appears. Isn’t this so? (601b-c)

Shouldn’t the same consideration be given to Socrates’ own images? — Fooloso4

What state gives you the credit of having been a good lawgiver and having benefited it? Italy and Sicily would claim Charondas, we would claim Solon. Who would claim you?’ Will he be able to answer?”

“I don’t think so,” said Glaucon. “Nothing is said on the matter even by the Homeridae themselves.”

“There again, what war is on record as being well fought in Homer’s time under his leadership or on his advice?”

“None.”

“Or again, as would be expected of the deeds of a wise man, are there many ingenious inventions and clever contrivances in crafts or any other activities that are mentioned, as they are with the Milesian Thales and the Scythian Anacharsis?”

“Nothing of that sort at all.”

“And yet again, if not in public life, in private life is Homer himself said to have been a leading educator in his own lifetime for some who delighted in his company and passed on a kind of Homeric way of life to their successors, as Pythagoras himself was particularly loved for this, and even today his successors seem to be distinguished among the rest for a way of life they call Pythagorean?” — Republic, 599e, translated by Jones and Preddy

We are inclined to believe that the poetry is a representation of the divine. But this leaves out the very important medium, which is the poet's own ideas of the divine. So the poetry really only represents the divine through the medium, which is the poet's ideas. — Metaphysician Undercover

The principal issue is the deficiency of the human mind, in its attempts to grasp "the ideal", as the best, most perfect, divine ideas. — Metaphysician Undercover

So, perhaps a resolution of everything before? — Amity

The laws of a city is an imitation of natural laws. — I like sushi

The human 'soul' is a 'natural law'. — I like sushi

Plato critiques poetry and the arts for being imitative, potentially misleading, and emotionally manipulative, distancing people from truth and rational understanding. — Benkei

A way of life that does not talk about itself. — Paine

And if the poet is inspired? — Srap Tasmaner

Are these two claims the same:

(1) The poet expresses his ideas about the divine.
(2) The divine expresses itself through the medium of the poet's ideas. — Srap Tasmaner

But what if it is not the poet reaching out toward the divine ("Ah, but a man's reach must exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?"), but the divine taking hold of the poet? — Srap Tasmaner

The whole point is that this, "the divine taking hold of the poet", is the false representation which Plato wants to rid us of. — Metaphysician Undercover

The human being is a medium, an agent with free will, and is really speaking one's own opinions about the divine. — Metaphysician Undercover

So Plato grasped a very difficult problem, which was the question of how forms, or ideas, could be causally active in the creative process. — Metaphysician Undercover

But this is just denying that divine inspiration is a thing. It was already clear what your view on the matter is.

And maybe it's Plato's too. — Srap Tasmaner

But it's not the Forms that would matter here, but the Muses. And he doesn't seem to mention them. Maybe I overlooked it.

But as near as I can tell no one is bothering to present an actual argument against the efficacy of the Muses in the production of Homer's poetry.

Your incredulity is not an argument. — Srap Tasmaner

Now, to understand how this relates to good and bad, and Homer's representation of the divine, we are guided to take the analogy one step further. So, consider the following. The carpenter makes a physical bed. This physical bed is a copy of the carpenter's idea (form) of a bed. The carpenter's idea of a bed is itself a representation of the ideal bed, the divine Form of bed or best bed. The carpenter attempts to produce the ideal form of bed. Notice how the carpenter's material bed suffers the same problem of "imitation" that the painter's bed suffered. Rather than being based on the divine Form of bed itself, it is based on the carpenter's representation of what he believes is the divine Form. So it's an imitation produced from a perspective, and therefore lacking in truth. — Metaphysician Undercover

1) Beds and tables as they are by their nature, the singular forms.
2) Beds and tables as they are made by the craftsman with an eye to the form
3) Beds and tables as they are made by a maker of images, whose model is the beds and tables made by the craftsman. — Fooloso4

So, perhaps a resolution of everything before?
— Amity

I don't think so. Many of the problems raises in the dialogues do not seem to have a resolution. Some might find the odd or unsatisfactory, but I think it is a reflection of life. There is much that we do not have answer for. — Fooloso4

Found the reference to Homer's muse, a little later, but alas it's the "pleasure-giving Muse" (607a-c), not the "true Muse -- that of discussion and philosophy" (548b).

Not question-begging at all.

Carry on. — Srap Tasmaner

Are you not aware,” said I, “that our soul is immortal and is never destroyed?”

And he looked at me, in amazement, and said, “By Zeus, I am not, but are you able to say this?” (608d)

… the dead person is nothing and has no perception of anything …

… knowing things as they actually are.

Unlike the poetry that Socrates criticizes, the purpose of the story of Er is not to bring pleasure to the listener. (607c) It may bring hope to some, but fear to others. It may not be the truth of what happens in death but it could be considered leading rather than misleading, for:

What’s at stake is becoming good or bad, and so we should not neglect justice, and excellence in general (608b) — Fooloso4

Or, as mentioned above, it may be typical Platonic irony, taken to the extreme, the boundary of hypocrisy. — Metaphysician Undercover

The discussion turns to the fate of the soul. — Fooloso4

602C “By Zeus,” said I, “this business of imitation is concerned with something at a third remove from the truth. Isn’t it so?”
“Yes.”
“And what aspect of the person does it have the power to influence?”... — Platonic Foundation - Book 10

603C Let’s take a look, rather, at the very part of the mind with which poetic imitation consorts, and see whether it is lowly or superior.” — As above

...You know that we are delighted, we surrender ourselves, we follow along and feel what they feel, and, in all seriousness, we praise whoever is best able to give us such an experience and call him a good poet.”

“I know, of course.”

“But when some personal misfortune befalls any of us, you realise, in this case, that we pride ourselves on the opposite response, on being able to remain at peace and to endure it, since this is the response of a man, while the other, the one we just praised is a woman’s response ” 605E

But in case poetry accuses us of a certain harshness and lack of refinement, let’s explain to her that a dispute between philosophy and poetry is of ancient date. 607B

Unlike the poetry that Socrates criticizes, the purpose of the story of Er is not to bring pleasure to the listener. (607c) It may bring hope to some, but fear to others. It may not be the truth of what happens in death but it could be considered leading rather than misleading, for:

What’s at stake is becoming good or bad, and so we should not neglect justice, and excellence in general (608b) — Fooloso4

Did you not think the missing sections to be important as to an understanding and assessment of Book 10's value? — Amity

misleading, and emotionally manipulative — Benkei

An intended irony or just plain sarcasm? — Amity

To talk of justice at the same time as comparing men and women. — Amity