Are these capabilities that a newborn would have? Newborns are unable to focus their eyes, their muscle movements are reflexive, and when they smile, it's a sign that they just passed gas. Do they have enough cognitive capability to show up as human? — frank
So there's nothing behavioral that signals cognition to you. It's a matter of wiring? — frank
Yes, which is why it would be wrong to kill someone who’s asleep or unconscious or with locked in syndrome but not wrong to take someone who’s brain dead off life support. — Michael
I was hoping that you would say something like this because I think it goes to the heart of the matter. You grant a human zygote fully developed human status but don't grant a seed fully developed plant status. Why? Because you don't care about seeds nearly as much as you care about your own species. A million seeds could be destroyed and you wouldn't bat an eye.
I don't think there's really a scientific dividing line when it comes to consciousness, owing in part to our lack of understanding of what it is and what's required for it. — frank
I think the reason it would feel wrong to kill a fetus over 24 weeks is that it could possibly survive outside the womb. — frank
A zygote is a very brief stage of development of an individual human organism, — NOS4A2
No measurable property called “personhood” appears or disappears in any given human being. Therefor no one can pick and choose with any certainty when one is or isn’t a person. — NOS4A2
There's science that says that? — frank
Consciousness requires a sufficiently complex and functioning brain (and plausibly some other brain-like structure). A zygote is just a small collection of cells. It lacks the necessary physical stuff that allows for an organism to be conscious. — Michael
So your view isn't scientific. You just hold to that folk wisdom. — frank
The fetus has a brain-like structure at 3 weeks. I'll put you down for supporting abortion up to 2 weeks after conception. — frank
The fetus is minimally conscious before that. I think you're looking for a higher level of consciousness. — frank
Functional MRI and electrophysiology studies suggest consciousness depends on large-scale thalamocortical and corticocortical interactions.
So no thalamocortical interactions, no consciousness. — Michael
As mentioned in an earlier comment to you, the evidence suggests that thalamocortical connectivity is required, which occurs ~24 weeks after conception, and so I support abortion up to around that point. — Michael
Consciousness cannot emerge before 24 gestational weeks when the thalamocortical connections from the sense organs are established. Thus the limit of legal abortion at 22-24 weeks in many countries makes sense.
If consciousness and viability happened to occur at the same time, that was coincdental. — Hanover
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