• ThinkingMatt
    36
    I recently posted a discussion titled 'The Purpose of Life. But why do we choose to continue it? Where i attempted to pose the purpose of life through my eyes. I realized that it wasn't articulated very well and that some clarification was needed. I decided to completely rewrite this idea and post it again to see get some feed back on just the idea itself and to see if anyone can pull wholes in it with their logic.

    *IMPORTANT* - before reading this its imperative to understand the difference between two definitions of life. (1) being the entirety of life encompassing all living organisms on earth and (2) being the perspective through one's life as a singular organism within the greater system of life. I feel not making this distinction in my last post caused a lot of confusion.

    Perpetual Theory of Life

    To identify the purpose of one’s life we first need to look at the purpose of the entirety of life as a whole. The entirety of life exists as a continuing loop of birth, survival and death. Where survival brings birth and death brings survival.
    For instance, say a fish spontaneously dies. A young seal comes across this fish and eats it so it has enough energy to continue surviving. Somehow this seal is able to find enough of these dead fish to enable it to survive for an extended period of time. Whilst surviving this seal is impregnated by another seal. After more time surviving and consuming many other dead fish, this seal was able generate enough energy to reproduce another seal just like it within itself and bring it into the world. After giving birth to its seal pup it goes on to survive for a bit longer then dies as an old seal, where it sinks to the bottom of the ocean and is then eaten by fish. To which this cycle continues.
    This is generally referred to as the circle of life and takes place amongst all living organisms in some shape or form. If the function of life is to circulate and continue its existence. Then its purpose can be defined as its function. Meaning the purpose of life as its entirety is to perpetuate its existence. When reflecting on one’s life we can see that all our actions and behaviours are to essentially serve this greater purpose.
    Some people commonly suggest that the purpose of life is to experience happiness. Most think it is at the root of what drives a lot of our choices and behaviours. Ideas such as wealth, love, health and connection with others are just some examples through which humankind define means of obtaining happiness. Though happiness could be seen as just a mechanism installed into our minds as a way to encourage behaviours which assist in the perpetuation of life and its entirety.
    Recent research showing that the intuitive positive relationship between wealth and happiness breaks down after certain basic needs are taken care of, and the breaking point beyond which money makes little difference to one's happiness is surprisingly low. Evident (for example) in the fact that people who suffer debilitating injuries or win the lotto both go back to their pre-existing level of self-reported satisfaction with life after only a few months. From this, happiness could be a sensation that can be derived right down to at least just one of our four basic needs of life being met.
    In order to survive, we need the bare minimum of oxygen, water, food and shelter. When our body is lacking one or more of these four things, our mind creates uncomfortable feelings such as suffocation, thirst, hunger and being hot or cold respectively. This applies alternatively as well. When these needs are met, for example when eating energy dense food, our body rewards us with satisfying sensations of taste and fullness which intern make us happy. It does this as a way to ensure the body maintains a healthy continuation of its existence for long enough to reproduce and raise young to a stage where they can continue the cycle. This is where concepts of love and connection with others come into it. Love is generally a term we associate with happiness. The reason we form this idea of love with another human is to form a strong enough connection to mate together and then once a child is created stay together for long enough as to raise that child to where it can complete this same purpose. Humans have found forming these romantic relationships and complex social connections within a tribe or now a society of other humans, is the most effective means of successfully completing this cycle.
    It’s important to keep in mind that with all systems there are inefficiencies where for varying reasons this cycle isn’t able to complete itself. For example, individuals who cannot have children as they are infertile. Though despite this, every living organism at least still become a fuel source for the next organism in the cycle.
    When you focus right down to it, every single behaviour and action from eating to love and even death can be sourced right down to a mechanism just to sustain the continuation of life.

    Look forward to hearing your insights.
  • ThinkingMatt
    36
    @darthbarracuda@Thorongil@TheMadFool
    @schopenhauer1
    @Rich
    @Noble Dust@Agustino@Bitter Crank

    I would be interested to hear all of your thought in particular- cheers
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    When you focus right down to it, every single behaviour and action from eating to love and even death can be sourced right down to a mechanism just to sustain the continuation of life.ThinkingMatt

    You're right. Everything can be reduced to survival. It's the most basic of drives and aims. Such an interpretation is scientific and thus, objective.

    However, this meaning of life doesn't go down well with most people as evidenced by people objecting to it. It seems people desire something more, which I describe as grand. The meaning of life that we desire has to be, well, awesome. See my thread.
  • Wayfarer
    22.6k
    When you focus right down to it, every single behaviour and action from eating to love and even death can be sourced right down to a mechanism just to sustain the continuation of life.ThinkingMatt

    Basically you're trying to find meaning in the physical processes of procreation. I think you have a sense of their being more to life than that, but you've only got the vocabulary and metaphors of evolutionary biology in which to express it.
  • mcdoodle
    1.1k
    Look forward to hearing your insights.ThinkingMatt

    One of my favourite campaigning songs, 'Bread and roses', was written early in the 20th century for striking women to sing. The physical is necessary but not sufficient to provide meaning:

    Our lives shall not be sweetened
    From birth until life closes
    Hearts starve as well as bodies
    Give us bread, but give us roses...
  • Rich
    3.2k
    I believe that any description of life should give meaning to all of life, both stages in life and differentiated life. Life, that exists simply to perpetuate itself, is meaningless to most of life (life in stages), and differentiated life, life not interested or unable to reproduce. Such a philosophy revolving around such a transient and limited theme is not only insufficient, it can be downright depressing with no upside. It should be jettisoned.

    What is relevant and descriptive of all of life throughout all duration, is that it is continuously creating and learning. All life, all the time is evolving via learning and memory.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    Meaning the purpose of life as its entirety is to perpetuate its existence. When reflecting on one’s life we can see that all our actions and behaviours are to essentially serve this greater purpose.ThinkingMatt

    Okay, this is essentially the mainline Theory of Evolution put forth by Darwin and perhaps earlier. Although, you should not insert a teleology here as evolution isjust consequences of a mechanism.

    If the function of life is to circulate and continue its existence. Then its purpose can be defined as its function. Meaning the purpose of life as its entirety is to perpetuate its existence. When reflecting on one’s life we can see that all our actions and behaviours are to essentially serve this greater purpose.ThinkingMatt

    The conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise. Surely, animals breed with slight and accumulative variations at different survival rates and various niches. Due to these factors species may change over time or particular branches die off. This is purely mechanistic- the "need" to reproduce and create this situation through intention has nothing to do with it. That is purely a preference thrown in the equation ad hoc.

    Evident (for example) in the fact that people who suffer debilitating injuries or win the lotto both go back to their pre-existing level of self-reported satisfaction with life after only a few months.ThinkingMatt

    This is more getting to the point- humans desire for desire. Desires are relentless and never satisfied.
    When you focus right down to it, every single behaviour and action from eating to love and even death can be sourced right down to a mechanism just to sustain the continuation of life.ThinkingMatt

    Well you made a distinction between species purpose and individual purpose, yet I feel you are still conflating the two. Purpose is usually considered as what makes life meaningful or fulfilling, or worth continuing in the context of the individual. If this leads to species-wide reproduction, then that is a consequence of the individual's purpose, but not the purpose itself.

    What your argument does tangentially seem to get at is a concept I have been looking at for a while- that of instrumentality. You mentioned reproduction. Reproduction has happened billions of times over and is occurring now in the thousands. This leads to ideas of repitition. Why do more people "need" to be born in the first place? What is it about the gauntlet of life's absurd going through the motions that we need others to do this? There is much struggle, displeasure, and unwanted circumstances that impinge the new individual on top of the core idea that someone is simply continually burdened with surviving and entertaining themselves in their historical-cultural setting.
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    If the function of life is to circulate and continue its existence. Then its purpose can be defined as its function.ThinkingMatt

    All you have established is that, at minimum and with no other considerations, this is what life's purpose is. It could be that life has some other purpose in addition to the one you describe here. In other words, evolution, which is basically what you're describing, can be true but may not tell the whole truth about ourselves and why we're here. My question for you is: Do you rule out any such additional purpose and, if so, why? If you answer in the affirmative, you are effectively arguing for naturalism, which would require more philosophical justification than simply pointing out, as you have done, what we know from biology about ourselves.

    When reflecting on one’s life we can see that all our actions and behaviours are to essentially serve this greater purpose.ThinkingMatt

    That's not true, though. Doing philosophy, for example, doesn't serve any such purpose, and yet here you are doing it, so the very act of making the claim refutes it.
  • Nils Loc
    1.4k
    A purpose of life is to be successful in the domains (ecologies) you find yourself in or have voluntarily chosen for yourself. This success is about being rewarded and rewarding others in this game we call "The Philosophy Forum" which is a subdomain of the game of life.

    There are as likely as many purposes (or justifications for being) as there are ways of being.The tinkering space at the end of the chain of being is our sandbox. We can do what we want within that space toward whatever goals we voluntarily or involuntarily accept as worth pursuing. A lot of that work isn't really our own, we can inherit purposes (functions) and abandon them.

    I like the idea of universal Darwinism as applied to cultural artifacts (memetic theory) but you don't have to perpetuate it. Take it, leave it, turn in into a cartoon, or whatever, talk about Daesin, Genetic Imprinting, Jungian Typology, Jonathan Haidt's Moral Flavors, Economic Inequality, Black Box Metaphors, Biophilia et cetera. Obviously you'll always have reasons to prefer one kind of being (one direction) over another but you may not need really need them. No one has good reasons for eating at the Cheesecake Factory (oh but they do).

    I can go outside and clone colorful variants of Cordlyine fruticosa and Hibiscus rosa-sinensis. Why do I do it? Because circumstances have made it easy, because they are beautiful, for a similar reason people put pictures on their walls (they see something as they walk by), to have something to talk about with other people who are interested in cloning variants, because I'm avoiding doing something I ought to be doing like long term planning, et cetera.
  • _db
    3.6k
    When you focus right down to it, every single behaviour and action from eating to love and even death can be sourced right down to a mechanism just to sustain the continuation of life.ThinkingMatt

    Is this post simply a mechanism meant to sustain the continuation of life?

    What about actions that are clearly detrimental to the continuation of life, like suicide?

    Anything that isn't us specifically focused on surviving is killing time. Life can be brutal but it can also be easy-going, to the point where you have vast stretches of time in between procreative acts in which you simply..."persist". All civilization seems to be the management of everything that happens in between sex acts and sleep. It is how we stay alive long enough to make babies. From a purely evolutionary perspective it doesn't seem like there would be any real difference between living in civilization or living in cryo-stasis, so long as you procreate in between sessions. Whatever passes on your genes is "successful".

    Bucking the system may not be evolutionary successful but it's hella satisfying. I guess that goes to show that what is satisfying may not be the "best" for the survival of the species. But it also is extremely absurd to look at all the complexity in life and realize the only reason it's here is because it helps people persist for long stretches of time in between sex.
  • Noble Dust
    7.9k
    When you focus right down to it, every single behaviour and action from eating to love and even death can be sourced right down to a mechanism just to sustain the continuation of life.ThinkingMatt

    Your whole theory is basically a description of the perpetuation of biological life, which you're then conflating with a vague philosophical concept of "purpose".
  • BC
    13.6k
    Perpetual Theory of Life
    To identify the purpose of one’s life we first need to look at the purpose of the entirety of life as a whole. The entirety of life exists as a continuing loop of birth, survival and death. Where survival brings birth and death brings survival.
    ThinkingMatt

    The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
    Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees
    Is my destroyer.
    And I am dumb to tell the crooked rose
    My youth is bent by the same wintry fever.
    ...
    — Dylan Thomas, 1914-1953

    The life of the world in which we share doesn't have a purpose apart from itself. Life is it's own purpose, going on now some 3.5+ billion years. A long time, a quarter to a third of the age of the universe itself.

    We, being querulous creatures, haven't been satisfied with mere existence. We want an explanation and a meaning and plan, preferably that revolves around us--we paragons of animals. So we devise all sorts of reasons for our existence, and set up various purposes which we should fulfill.

      The purpose of life is to...

    • get as much as one can before somebody else gets it?
    • find happiness?
    • enjoy life to the fullest?
    • figure out what life is for?
    • serve God?
    • eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may die?
    • WTF?
    • travel from the cradle to the grave along the straight and narrow?
    • make love?
    • create beauty?
    • exist?
    • make lots of babies?
    • wallow in the mire because life is meaningless?
    • make other people happy?
    • discover wisdom?
    • find the purpose of life?

    Maybe we should stop worrying about the "purpose of life" or "the meaning of life", but we won't. We can't. It's in our nature to seek meaning, and when we can't find it already made, to create it. Man the meaning maker. There are not exactly an infinity of possibilities, but there are quite a few, enough to suit every taste.
  • WISDOMfromPO-MO
    753
    ThinkingMattThinkingMatt





    Therefore, serial killers, rapists, child molesters, genocidal regimes, polluters, etc. are acting according to the purpose of life, and they should be respected for that?
  • BC
    13.6k
    say a fish spontaneously dies. A young seal comes across this fish and eats itThinkingMatt

    Nature is red in tooth and claw, as Lord Tennyson wrote; solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short, as Thomas Hobbes put it. Just to keep things realistic here, the fish was most likely altogether alive and doing it's thing when the young seal joyously sank its teeth into it. It was not conveniently dead already. Predatory animals generally begin eating their prey before death has ensued. The prey are lucky if death is swift.

    We try very hard to keep the affairs of our lives well outside the experience of prey species, except when we decide to pursue predation on each other, which happens all too often.
  • WISDOMfromPO-MO
    753
    Maybe we should stop worrying about the "purpose of life" or "the meaning of life", but we won't. We can't. It's in our nature to seek meaning, and when we can't find it already made, to create it. Man the meaning maker. There are not exactly an infinity of possibilities, but there are quite a few, enough to suit every taste.Bitter Crank




    Luc Ferry says in A Brief History of Thought: A Philosophical Guide to Living that it is all because, unlike other life forms, humans are conscious of our mortality. In other words, things like seeking meaning are not due to having brains wired to be curious, having a lot of free time, etc. Rather, they are due to us knowing that we are going to die.

    It is coping with the knowledge we have of our mortality.
  • BC
    13.6k
    Didn't I read that line in another post, recently?
  • WISDOMfromPO-MO
    753
    Didn't I read that line in another post, recentlly?Bitter Crank




    The thread that this thread is a spin-off of.
  • BC
    13.6k
    The news that we are going to die could be received nonchalantly, (after a certain age one can afford to be nonchalant) but because we have an imaginative brain (and a curious one) we generally like to think about the meanings possible for the dying and the dead. It's the brain, not the grave, that does it.
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    Off topic, but why the hell do you always have several lines worth of space before you begin your comment? Is that part of the wisdom of pomo or something? It's bizarre.
  • ThinkingMatt
    36
    @Thorongil @Bitter Crank @Noble Dust@darthbarracuda@Nils Loc@schopenhauer1@Wayfarer@TheMadFool @WISDOMfromPO-MO@Rich@mcdoodle

    Thank you all for giving your time to read my contention and providing thoughtful feed back. I very much appreciate it!
    Based on a combination of all of your feed back, I think its fair to say the following:

    My contention is a tautology in a logical sense of the word. Meaning its a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form. Though as suggested by many of you, and i think most accurately by 'Schopenhauer' stating that my contention was in fact a "teleology". Meaning it is an explanation of phenomena by the purpose it serves rather than by postulated causes. To which I 100% agree. I would very much enjoy reading all of the theories for possible causes of this phenomena that you can come up with.
  • WISDOMfromPO-MO
    753
    Off topic, but why the hell do you always have several lines worth of space before you begin your comment? Is that part of the wisdom of pomo or something? It's bizarre.Thorongil




    I only do it when I quote somebody.

    I like my words clearly separated​ from others' words. "Clearly" is subjective, but I guess for my eyes it means a lot of space.
  • Thorongil
    3.2k
    What if I told you it bothers me?
  • Wayfarer
    22.6k















    It probably wouldn't make any difference?
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