Unfortunately alot of this election is based on vibes with very little substance and I say that for both sides. Eh, I guess people get what they voted for, whether they know it or not.

Your take of his persona is odd for me to hear.

I have been working in construction for almost 40 years in NYC. He has long been the client you do not want to have. He makes deals to burn them. I worked for outfits that made similar deals with similar people. I never got paid fully from them. Pour Champaigne on me twice, shame on me.

I used not to think that Trump was evil. I thought he was banal, narcissistic, corrupt, venal, and all the other obviously suitable descriptions. But I didn’t think he had the gravitas, or the balls, to be evil in the same vein has Hitler and Stalin. But I’ve changed my mind. He still doesn’t have the balls, but his vanity is such that it provides a real window of opportunity for a lot of very evil players, with nefarious intentions, to seize power. J D Vance and Elon Musk are both hanging on to the coat-tails, and if Trump did win, God forbid, and I still don’t believe he will - they’re both very clever men. He will be surrounded by many evil opportunists who know how to use flattery to accomplish their own ends. (Elon Musk will to all intents be the Finance secretary god help us all.)

The other factor is the pull that Trump has even despite his obvious malfeasance and incompetence. Any sane judge of character would immediately grasp Trump’s unfitness for office. But he’s succeeded in convincing a very large number of people that the facts don’t matter, or alternatively, that they’re not facts, and that he’s the sole purveyor of facts. And that is definitely evil, although he has many willing co-conspirators in the dissemination of that evil.

If you would use the word 'evil' to describe Orange Doofus or Elon Musk, what word would you use to describe the current administration as it is literally supplying Israel with the bombs its throwing on hospitals and refugee camps?

Both sides are scared of upsetting the Jewish lobby, or want them onside.
Isreal is a running sore, which previous administrations have tried and fail to cauterise. This isn’t so much evil as the result of repeated political failure.

Right.

The entire US political system kowtowing to a lobby of genocidal lunatics - 'an unfortunate state of affairs'.

But Orange Doofus saying words we don't like, or Elon Musk making money (what was his crime again?) - oh, now that's evil!

They're not even in the same ballpark son. Anyone who is unable to see that must have a very thin grasp on reality indeed.

And if Biden were to halt arms shipments to Israel today. What would happen?
Or what do they fear would happen?

Evil is something that goes on in a person’s head, which is acted out. If someone failed to broker a peace deal a few decades ago, which was partly responsible for the situation as we see it in Israel. How can that be an evil person, when it had disastrous results, further down the line?

This isn't about Biden, or even the election.

It's about using the word 'evil' to describe a person whose crimes do not extend much further than being an idiot and the fact that he shouldn't be running for president, while ignoring the actual evil that is being perpetrated by the US government as we speak.

Apparently, paying hush money to a pornstar is the epitome of evil while aiding and abetting genocidal maniacs is simply 'an unfortunate state of affairs' for which no one seems to bear responsibility.

You didn’t answer the question. There is a reason why I asked it.

But he’s succeeded in convincing a very large number of people that the facts don’t matter, or alternatively, that they’re not facts, and that he’s the sole purveyor of facts. And that is definitely evil, although he has many willing co-conspirators in the dissemination of that evil. — Wayfarer

That says more about us than it does about him honestly. Fact is, even if Trump loses (an apparent coin flip at this point) it'll only be a matter of time before the next lunatic comes in that people will find reasons to support. It's happened before in Germany, it's happening now, and it will happen in the future.

I used not to think that Trump was evil. — Wayfarer

Judge not, that ye be not judged. Condemn the sin, and not the sinner.

That says more about us than it does about him honestly. — Mr Bee

Yes. This is the hard lesson to learn; that it is plainly arguable where the most evil lies in American politics. Plainly, because people are arguing it here on this page in seeming good faith.

If politics is characterised as an equal battle between good and evil, then necessarily, evil will triumph, because the good have scruples and the evil have none. Or else there is no difference and the analysis fails altogether.

When the opposition has to be called evil, it is the failure of the good to maintain their own standards that has allowed it to happen. If there is a party of the good and a party of the evil, there is no question who to vote for; it is when one cannot tell them apart that evil can triumph.

That says more about us than it does about him honestly. Fact is, even if Trump loses (an apparent coin flip at this point) it'll only be a matter of time before the next lunatic comes in that people will find reasons to support. It's happened before in Germany, it's happening now, and it will happen in the future.

Trump’s enemies have set the blueprint. The crying wolf and the hoaxes are one thing, but Trump’s enemies have also used the state to go after him. Now we have a discredited media, a two-tiered justice system, a political intelligence community, and a swath of activists ready to head the call. The lunatics are already here.

:roll:

Trump’s enemies have set the blueprint. The crying wolf and the hoaxes are one thing, but Trump’s enemies have also used the state to go after him. Now we have a discredited media, a two-tiered justice system, a political intelligence community, and a swath of activists ready to head the call. The lunatics are already here.

And Trump has stated that all these people will be sent to jail.
Basically, he is now waging war with the American state and if he were to win, he will be taking his revenge.

Who should be in jail, the whole US state, or Trump?

but Trump’s enemies have also used the state to go after him. — NOS4A2

What does that mean?

They politicized the justice system. Biden’s DOJ went after him. Attorney Generals campaigned on going after him and they cooked up frivolous cases. They locked up at least two of his advisors.

Isn't that just a matter of law enforcement going after the law breakers? Getting "the state to go after him", seems like nothing other than pointing out to the law, where the law may have been broken. Isn't that basically what Trump did with Clinton?

It would be but Biden possessed stolen documents for decades and nothing happened. If you watch the appeals to the New York civil case the appeals judges noted it was the first time this has ever happened, and it’s not looking good for the prosecution. Bragg’s case was a completely novel legal theory, with a judge whose daughter works for the Biden/Harris campaign. And they’re on record campaigning to get Trump. So where is the outrage?

How is that relevant?

I take a less apocalyptic view. I survived Covid when Trump was talking about quack cures and the power of bleach. One has to only listen to him speak for ten minutes now to learn that he is less than the ignorant person he was back then.

So, it would really suck if he were elected. It is the people around him who would use that for their advantage that is the more present danger. He is the El Cid riding the horse into battle after passing away.

I agree, although the threat of an apocalypse is a real and present danger. There are so many critical situations - economic, political, military and environmental.The world is on a knife edge. Trump would be preoccupied with vengeance - not long ago he was fantasizing about putting Liz Cheney in front of a military tribunal. Purging the public service and politicizing the Justice Department. Fiddling while Rome burns, indeed.

I don't want to make light of the peril of another Trump administration. I am only saying that the most dangerous parts go well beyond a particular person and their intentions.

For sure. He’s a trojan horse.

Case in point: from the Madison Square delusionfest:

Trump says he would let RFK Jr. "go wild on medicines" as Kennedy promotes vaccine conspiracy theories
From CNN's Kate Sullivan in New York

Former President Donald Trump said Sunday he would let former independent presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who has been a leading purveyor of debunked vaccine conspiracy theories, “go wild on health,” “go wild on the food” and “go wild on medicines,” if reelected.

Trump previously told CNN’s Kristen Holmes he would consider appointing Kennedy to a role in his administration if he wins in November. Kennedy, who spoke at the rally, has a role on Trump’s transition team.

“I’m going to let him go wild on health, I’m going to let him go wild on the food, I’m going to let him go wild on medicines.”

They politicized the justice system. Biden’s DOJ went after him. Attorney Generals campaigned on going after him and they cooked up frivolous cases. They locked up at least two of his advisors. — NOS4A2

Trump's efforts to steal the election, and his obstruction of justice (and other aggravating issues) in his classified documents case, were hardly frivolous. When a public figure blatantly breaks the law in plain sight, I see nothing wrong with campaigning on prosecuting the crimes. I'll also point out there's no evidence Biden had any involvement in investigations of Trump, by contrast - during his Presidency, Trump tried to push the DOJ into going after people.

If a Trump DOJ goes after Democrats, I'd be fine if it was based on investigating crimes. However, Trump (and many GOP pundits) propose investigating PEOPLE to look for crimes - and that's indisputably improper.

even if Trump loses (an apparent coin flip at this point) it'll only be a matter of time before the next lunatic comes in that people will find reasons to support. — Mr Bee

It might be, but it could take a long time to re-appear. Whereas if Trump looses he's not going to run again and many of those who backed him will at least loose momentum.

Whereas, if Trump wins, he has apprentices in his slipstream who have been preparing to exploit the moment. Particularly Vance:

Mainstream news outlets now feature stories about felon and former president Donald Trump’s “strikingly erratic, coarse and often confusing” rambling speeches, “cognitive decline,” and bizarre behavior. This evidence of mental breakdown, coupled with his event cancellations due to reports of “exhaustion” (reports his campaign has denied), give voters every reason to think that Trump could not complete a second term or would be “out of it.” Either way, his vice-presidential pick, Sen. JD Vance (R-Ohio), the most disliked man ever to run for vice president, would be running the show.

In essence, the most unqualified man ever to run for vice president — without a lick of executive public experience, just two years in the Senate, author of not a single piece of significant legislation, lacking any experience with foreign leaders — would be promoted. We would have a real life encounter with Peter’s Principle in the most important job on the planet. And considering the opposition from most of the “adults” from the first term, he might be relying on likely Trump Cabinet officials and advisers such as Kash Patel, Stephen K. Bannon, Richard Grenell, Elon Musk and Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Vance is far more ideological than Trump, who blows with the wind on everything from a national abortion ban to Social Security. And Vance is every bit as enmeshed in the fever world of conspiracies — from the antisemitic obsession with George Soros as the mastermind behind Democratic causes to the “great replacement theory” to election denial — with ties to other conspiratorialists. He is a better spoken, more erudite conspiracy monger.

Moreover, few doubt that Vance, who has extensive ties to Project 2025, would likely be raring to implement the wholesale remaking of the federal government. If Trump might be distracted or convinced the plan would make him unpopular, an ideologue such as like Vance might well be more committed to implementing its crackpot ideas, such as politicizing the Federal Reserve, replacing 50,000 civil service experts with MAGA loyalists, conducting a mass roundup and expulsion of undocumented immigrants, abolition of the Education Department, and shredding the prohibition on establishment of religion. — Jennifer Rubin, WaPo

Vance is a protogé of Peter Theil, who says that democracy and freedom are incompatible. Trump has said he'll put Elon Musk in charge of Federal spending.

Make no mistake: Democracy is on the ballot. This is not Democratic Party hyperbole. If Trump were not to loose, the USA will be managed by rich oligarchs.

Make no mistake: Democracy is on the ballot. — Wayfarer

Not really, since the US hasn't been a democracy for quite some time. You have to travel to Europe for that; although even there it is in decline in many countries.

Make no mistake: Democracy is on the ballot. This is not Democratic Party hyperbole. If Trump were not to loose, the USA will be managed by rich oligarchs. — Wayfarer

US democracy has been eroding for a long time now. But the people don't really care until the sledgehammer of reality hits them in the face.

Autocrats gonna autocrat, lobbyists will lobby, billionaires gonna billionaire.

The problem is always boiling down to the people ignoring society eroding into a worse state. I'm sick and tired of constantly hearing about the "bad politicians", the corruption and corporate affairs. Because the people are actually the ones to blame. Democracy requires the people to take care of it, to nurture it and heal it when it's down. A population who just ignore that, who don't care to educate themselves, who let themselves be shuffled around like stupid sheep and do deeds ordered by whoever's in power, regardless of how despicable the act is... deserves the broken society that eventually ends up on their door step.

If democrats are so sure that Trump and modern republicans have been infiltrated by fascists and that democracy is threatened, that the constitution is threatened. Then what exactly are they doing about it?

Democracy cannot win against brainwashing despots. People are less rational than they think and will be herded by those who knows how to manipulate.

Democracy cannot win against the manipulators, because it relies on honesty and truth, which is easy to get rid of with the right technology and rhetoric.

I've said this before, the US does not have any protection for its democracy. It's been a patchwork of convoluted bureaucracy for so long that no one knows how to install protections from despots and corruption.

Even when someone like Trump do things that in any other previous political era would lead to almost political and societal ostracism, it just makes him stronger. And the system just ends up unable to get rid of him for the sake of keeping democracy healthy and away from demagogical actors.

The US democracy needs to get away from this celebrity politics. It needs to focus on competence over personality. That the majority of the US population is so focused on the personality traits of a president should be all the warning signs that's needed to conclude that the US isn't a real democracy, it's a damn television show. It's reality TV, not politics.

And people in the world actually dies because of it. By the actions of presidents who are unfit. By actions that are obscured by this focus on personality over policy.

I'm starting to believe that what the US need, what the population really needs... is a sledge hammer to the face. A total collapse of the nation in which the true horrors of not caring for the health of democracy comes into view. Where the people crash right into that reality.

Because when a system is so broken that it cannot protect against potential despots, all it can do is collapse.

A broken building that is held up by pins where people just move the pins around to wherever the house starts to lean towards. It doesn't matter how many new pins are introduced, it will eventually collapse if the structure isn't replaced and improved.

I agree with a much of what you say. The populace is to blame because they elect the leaders, and the populace is (by and large) ill-informed and easily misled. I don't agree that a total collapse of the nations is either needed or is likely. What is needed is better education.

Trump is an opportunist, and the opportunity he takes advantage of is the disconnect between detailed policy and political rhetoric. Candidates can't win an election by presenting detailed policies; they need to dumb it down into slogans and soundbites. So the vast majority makes their decision on these soundbites, not by carefully examining the pros/cons of competing detailed policy positions. In many cases with Trump, he just has the soundbites that appeal to many - with little or no details.

If Trump is elected, I expect he will endeavor to do everything he promises. And there will be both positive and negative consequences. This will be a learning opportunity for the American public.