To what extent is an immediate relationship with our non-human surroundings a language? — Joshs
To what extent is an immediate relationship with our non-human surroundings a language? — Joshs
To what extent is an immediate relationship with our non-human surroundings a language? — Joshs
What is in the video? — I like sushi
Consider the face rubbing stim. You can rub your face on two different soft toys in the same way, the phenomenology of those acts can differ radically even if the rubbing stim is the same. Thinking of the stim as a language item, it must have a reproducible content of some sort, and since the phenomenologies differ so much it would difficult to call the content of the stim state reproducible. — fdrake
And language is definitely not something like ... let's call it an "action" (going for a run when sad). — KrisGl
Could you maybe explain what you mean with "phenomenology" of the two different rubbing stims here? — KrisGl
I think language is a subset of action. Just there are some actions which aren't instances of language. — fdrake
What exactly distinguishes language-action from other forms of action? — KrisGl
I assume you consider stims to be an action as a response to an emotion. — KrisGl
I assume that, because you paralleled rubbing the face on a toy with someone going for a run when they are sad before. Is that correct?
Do you believe what Baggs is doing counts as language? — fdrake
There needs to be something in the action that allows it to be standardised in order for it to count as an item of language in some context. — fdrake
And I don't think her stims can be standardised in the above way. They probably can't even be individuated - can you tell the difference in significance of the water, or Beggs' relationship with her environment, when she changes the speed her fingers move against the water's current? — fdrake
Stims can be like sighs. — fdrake
Okay. So language is something that can only happen when there are people agreeing on a standardized meaning of sentences, words, gestures? — KrisGl
So "to individuate" stims means to be able to ascribe different meanings to each part of action within one stim (playing with the water)? — KrisGl
I mean ... we can certainly individuate the different stims (playing with water, moving hands in the air) and the different actions within one stim (moving slowly one second, then faster the next), right?'
We just are not sure about the meanings these actions have or if they have meaning at all.
I also think interpreting Baggs' stimming as language has the opposite of its intended life affirming/depathologising effect for autistic people. — fdrake
It's repetitive, there are patterns and types of things but... you can say the same of almost any process. — fdrake
It is difficult to ascribe parts to the stimming. When her hand is moving back and forth in the water, should we just think that the first bit where she's relatively slow and the second bit where she's relatively fast count as distinct "units" which we could interpret as items of language? What about the variations in hand angle, which fingers feel the water etc within the units? — fdrake
If we take her at her word, and that she's in a constant state of reciprocal connection with the environment, it would be really weird if we could only ascribe meaning so broadly. She spent a long time humming, and we'd have to reduce that to "her humming". — fdrake
I do wish that stimming was understood more like yawning than like language. Something autonomic. — fdrake
Why is that exactly? — KrisGl
Whether or not there is intent or meaning(s) behind them ... we still don't know. — KrisGl
And how about the question if you would consider a sigh or a yawn part of language? — KrisGl
They might be. I inferred that Baggs' were since she spoke of a dialogue with her environment. — fdrake
They might be. I inferred that Baggs' were since she spoke of a dialogue with her environment. — fdrake
Because AFAIK it's known that stimming is tightly linked with autistic people's emotional regulation. If you must suppress stimming, the self regulation goes out of whack. — fdrake
that likens her behaviour to stroking one's hair, scratching yourself, finger twiddling etc. None of which need be carried out with intent. — fdrake
Can you even say what this finger rub means vs that one? Can you even tell when one ends and one begins? — fdrake
There just aren't units of fine enough graduations to represent the continuum of behaviour she has. — fdrake
This seems like a matter of basic semiotics. There is sign use and then there is intentional sign use. Language is the latter, and it is uniquely human. A dog licking its paw is the former, and humans are of course immersed in this sort of unintentional sign use as well, but it is not language. It is Helen Keller's transition from water-as-stimulus to water-as-sign. — Leontiskos
Sometimes ticks include cursing. Would you know from the outside if my cursing is me cursing or me having a tick? — KrisGl
What units exactly would be fine enough for you to consider something a language? — KrisGl
I wanted to avoid semiotic language since, taking Baggs at her word, her language is nonsignyfing. — fdrake
I don't speak this language. — KrisGl
I told you already that I don't think I can, because I do not speak that language. Take me by my word. I could make some elaborate counterargument now by introducing you to the nature of pre- and suffixes in the hebrew language and how you can cram a sentence into a whole word and how someone not familiar with that language would not be able to distinguish the different parts of one word that make up a whole sentence. I will not bore you with it. — KrisGl
I’m posting that video here because I think it challenges us to re-consider what constitutes language. To what extent is an immediate relationship with our non-human surroundings a language? — Joshs
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.