I don't agree that a total collapse of the nations is either needed or is likely. What is needed is better education. — Relativist

I agree in practice or course, but what we're seeing right now is a convoluted system that cannot heal itself. It doesn't matter if you introduce, in lack of a better term, "better people" into this system, the bad actor can take advantage of the problems in the system to take control of the system.

The protective measures that are meant to safeguard the system from hostile takeover do not work, otherwise we would have seen Trump be blocked from running for presidency. There's enough evidence that he is unsuited for the job and the protection he gets are corrupted to the point of protection being more present for him than for the system itself.

One single person in politics should never be more protected than the system of democracy. The idea behind democracy is power from the people, but if the system represents that lineage of power and one single individual gets more protection than the system, democracy is fundamentally dead.

So, education does not matter anymore as the bad actor would always be able to manipulate past it. And if the risk is that all it takes is one bad actor to take power in order to change the system further in his/her personal favor, then education is too slow to function against such events.

Trump is an opportunist, and the opportunity he takes advantage of is the disconnect between detailed policy and political rhetoric. Candidates can't win an election by presenting detailed policies; they need to dumb it down into slogans and soundbites. So the vast majority makes their decision on these soundbites, not by carefully examining the pros/cons of competing detailed policy positions. In many cases with Trump, he just has the soundbites that appeal to many - with little or no details. — Relativist

But there are plenty of functioning democracies in the world in which a single bad actor cannot screw up the nation regardless of manipulation.

On top of that, this is what does not work about democracy when it's centered around personality. The way to improve democracy is to move away from making it about personality traits. That's not democracy in my opinion, but a demagogy.

A form of state that does not represent the people or that have manipulated the people before hearing their will.

What good is a democracy if you have programmed the people into a certain opinion? It's as easy as any other form of marketing. There's a reason why marketing agencies pour money into commercials for products, because it actually works. And since it works, why not use the same methods, why not create a whole landscape simulacra that produces a consensus ideal about what a nation is and then use that as the foundation to steer the population into a the political corner that benefits your political ideas in order for them to vote for you.

Most democracies function by these principles, and so it's important to know this in order to install as many guardrails as possible to mitigate it. This is what the most healthy democracies in the world have done, and what the US entirely lacks. But it's also a fundamental problem with the concept of democracy.

In essence, how can a democracy be about actual choice when the illusion of choice is the preferable method of strategy for the people in power? In the worst case, it just becomes another form of autocracy, plutocracy or feudalism within an illusion of a free and democratic society.

This will be a learning opportunity for the American public. — Relativist

The same thing was being thrown around in 2016 and then again during Jan 6th. But the population does not learn, they do not care and they keep being shuffled around like the sheep they are. Until people prove to be better and more thoughtful than easily manipulated zombies, they will be easily manipulated zombies and they will never see a learning opportunity even if it slammed a sledge hammer in their face.

The system is so fundamentally broken that it needs to collapse so that all can examine the individual pieces, throw away the bad and rebuild with the working parts. It's too much of a patch work at the moment, it needs a reset and a new better protected democratic system needs to be built by philosophers and thinkers who knows the shit, not emotional narcissistic clowns and uneducated and manipulated sheep.

The system is so fundamentally broken that it needs to collapse so that all can examine the individual pieces, throw away the bad and rebuild with the working parts. — Christoffer

If our society collapsed, I doubt the population would be any better at examining and judging the individual pieces than they are at choosing leaders today. I'd expect that the situation would be more likely than ever to search for simple solutions to the complex problems.

:100:

I'd expect that the situation would be more likely than ever to search for simple solutions to the complex problems. — Relativist

:up: :up:

When I win the presidency, I'm going to nationalise McDonalds and put Trump in charge of it.

In the meantime, I am calling it for the democrats in a not quite landslide, based on early voting and anecdotal evidence of registered republicans voting democrat.

US democracy has been eroding for a long time now. — Christoffer

There is much anti-American sentiment, on the streets and on this forum. I don't buy that 'it's all f***ed anyway, no point in either party, they're all equally bad.' The anti-democratic forces feed on that sentiment.

If democrats are so sure that Trump and modern republicans have been infiltrated by fascists and that democracy is threatened, that the constitution is threatened. Then what exactly are they doing about it? — Christoffer

They're fighting like hell. They're trying desperately to do everything possible to prevent it.

Even when someone like Trump do things that in any other previous political era would lead to almost political and societal ostracism, it just makes him stronger — Christoffer

Which is why I said in an earlier post that I think he really is actually evil. He's become like a window through which a great number of social evils are manifesting. I don't know if you heard the racist crap that was being spouted at his NY convention the other night, but he's creating a permission structure, an 'Overton window', to enable millions of people to indulge in their darkest instincts. One of the contributors on the old forum said it best: Trump is the manifestation of the American Id.

It's very clear: this election is hope vs hate.


Let's hope.

If our society collapsed, I doubt the population would be any better at examining and judging the individual pieces than they are at choosing leaders today. I'd expect that the situation would be more likely than ever to search for simple solutions to the complex problems. — Relativist

Post WWII the world pretty much gathered around trying to figure out a better way forward. While it can be argued to death what worked and what didn't, there were good things that came out of having a true philosophical debate out of the rubble of the war. It spawned such an extreme introspection into how things could turn so bad that much of the progress we've seen since that can be attributed to this absolute horror lurking in the back of everyone's mind.

Facing actually bad consequences for mishandling democracy is a wake up call to the sleepwalkers who just shrug at warning signs. People slowly become desensitized to it all and that's a wide open door for fascism to take hold.

The irony is that the very point people have tried to make out of WWII is to be vigil in the face of fascism, but we're collectively eroding away our ability to spot it.

And the usual counter argument to this is that, "oh what happens if a Trump win doesn't lead to actual fascism?". But there's no reason whatsoever to balance on that knives edge. There's no reason to allow society to even come close to the notion of that becoming true. It's the publics mission to force society towards a better future for all, because that's essentially what history has been moving towards for thousands of years.

Over the course of history we've seen the rise of absolute terrors, but there's little spoken about the time after such horrors. How society discourse aimed to change for it to not happen again. And while this could be a cycle over and over, if we look at the holistic history as a whole, eventually it has started to form a bettering of society. But it all requires people to recognize the bad and work for the better.

When people stop being able to differentiate we either get lucky or things collapse to form a new cycle of building a better place.

The US collapsing will not become some Mad Max scenario. I would say that it doesn't even have to be something like the Civil War movie; it could be a total collapse of how politics are run, leading to millions marching for change, to unrest and justice being demanded. But through that turmoil, the bad actors will show their faces and the people who once sleepwalked through it all would finally take up the responsibility and be part of trying to fix things.

History repeats itself for a reason, in the right circumstances, and the right amount of work, a cycle can be avoided.

So far, I see none of that behavior, all I see is apathy and good people ignoring what's necessary to change the status quo. And no, the "necessary" is not some call to violence, it's a call to restructure the politics, update the constitution to reflect the modern world and 200 years of progress in moral philosophy and separate church and state for real. Leave behind the manifest destiny cult behavior and form an actual parliament with better representative democracy. There's enough template examples in the world to build from.

There is much anti-American sentiment, on the streets and on this forum. I don't buy that 'it's all f***ed anyway, no point in either party, they're all equally bad.' The anti-democratic forces feed on that sentiment. — Wayfarer

I don't either, but when there's only one functioning party and candidate to choose from, it's important to ask the question if there's actually a democracy left? Why not ditch the bipartisan way in favor of an actual parliament in which there are actual representatives for the people? With the republicans having transformed themselves into an actual cult, where's the possibility for democracy?

It's either go with democrats or risk fascism at the hands of a cult.

They're fighting like hell. They're trying desperately to do everything possible to prevent it. — Wayfarer

Why is it even possible in the first place? There's no guardrails whatsoever to guard against the corruption and incompetence of Trump and his kin. There's no actual separation of power, there's no actual separated entities that can evaluate and block such risks. When Trump goes on a lying rampage, when his followers and senators say things that are actual fascist statements, they should be removed from power. This is the very point of protecting democracy.

If you tolerate the intolerable, the tolerating society will erode.

How is it so hard to draw the line? Are people so morally illiterate to not be able to judge if Trump is suitable as a presidential candidate or not?

People are so bad at understanding how to balance free speech in a free society, with protecting that society from bad actors.

You cannot fight against a manipulator, you cannot fight against someone who turns truth into whatever he waves it to be... it's the damn lesson learned from WWII that should have been in the back of everyone's head. Regardless of the consequences of a Trump win, it's this manipulation of truth that shouldn't happen in the first place. Such people should be blocked from political careers. It's not silencing them, they can spew whatever hate and bullshit they want, but they can't be given the keys to the nation if they're actively eroding truth and law to a point where democracy implodes.

Which is why I said in an earlier post that I think he really is actually evil. He's become like a window through which a great number of social evils are manifesting. I don't know if you heard the racist crap that was being spouted at his NY convention the other night, but he's creating a permission structure, an 'Overton window', to enable millions of people to indulge in their darkest instincts. One of the contributors on the old forum said it best: Trump is the manifestation of the American Id.

It's very clear: this election is hope vs hate.


Let's hope. — Wayfarer

I don't want to hope, I want democracy to have fail safes against that which can destroy democracy so that this dichotomy does not happen. The people, the majority of people, are unfortunately too uneducated or too stupid to realize the importance of keeping democracy healthy... every day. People just view democracy as one time election and then they don't care about it until the next one four years later.

Society shouldn't end up in a position like this, it speaks to a fundamental problem with how politics are handled.

Stop just voting for hope and start working for a better system. It doesn't matter if hope wins this time if society erodes even further into the next election.

At a certain point in the future, if the system isn't fixed into a more healthy state, there will be someone who takes things too far.

Part of the Civil War movie warns about this. It's not a warning of what happens if Trump wins or trying to paint some picture of Trump like that, but it's a warning about what eventually happens if this erosion of truth and a stable democracy tips over the knives edge.

The polarisation in the US is on part with how it was before the civil war. Having hope the next four years will not fix things, it will just postpone the eventual further until the people actually wakes up and start a movement to improve the fundamental political system and remove corruption and bad actors from its halls.

Why is it even possible in the first place? — Christoffer

If you mean, why is it possible that Donald Trump has come to dominate American politics, f***ed if I know. It makes zero sense.

If you mean, why is it possible that Donald Trump has come to dominate American politics, f***ed if I know. It makes zero sense. — Wayfarer

A free nation will always have bad actors popping up, fractions of society trying to install some fascist ideologies etc.

But enabling such a person to reach so high as into presidency in a nation in which the leader has almost an autocratic power; speaks to a systemic problem of how politics are handled.

Looking at the whole system, looking at the lack of actual guardrails... I think it makes a lot of sense.

The problem isn't Trump, it's a badly patched system that enables Trump to happen. The freedom of a nation does not get lost by guarding against such people, it protects it.

The problem isn't Trump, it's a badly patched system that enables Trump to happen. — Christoffer

I don't agree with that. Trump is someone who is an absolute expert at exploiting democratic systems and also financial systems for his own advantage. If there is a fault, it's that a satisfactory anti-Trump hasn't emerged - someone who is also charismatic, bombastic, and telegenic, but who has at least a core of common decency which has long died inside DJT.

Anyway, it ain't over. I think I'll hold fire until one week from today, when the outcome might be apparent.

Like I said, it's Hope versus Hate.

Let's hope.

I don't agree with that. Trump is someone who is an absolute expert at exploiting democratic systems and also financial systems for his own advantage. If there is a fault, it's that a satisfactory anti-Trump hasn't emerged - someone who is also charismatic, bombastic, and telegenic, but who has at least a core of common decency which has long died inside DJT. — Wayfarer

You can't find someone who's both equipped to do what's necessary to fix problems in a nation (which most often than not angers people affected negatively when installing changes) and one who fundamentally ignites a cult like behavior in gullible people.

Most people are easily tricked, easily manipulated. A decent person who is charismatic will always have to balance their personality with what's necessary for the good of the nation; but a manipulator can always have their cult followers stay, regardless of behavior. They are essentially protected by the delusions while the "good" person is always scrutinized.

All of this is part of the systemic problem, since one of the pillars of this problem is the fanatical focus the US population has on personality of the president over the competence as a leader.

Trump is a symptom, not the cause. And there will be more symptoms in the future.

But on top of that, when a bipartisan system becomes only one valid choice, that in itself is not a good sign for the future either.

Why are the US public so obtuse about improving the political system? This is part of the fanatical belief the US being the best nation in the world. Forming a delusion that because of that, it also has the best political system. And then pouring all personal voting effort into something that essentially functions like a sham democracy seen as there's little to no choice to be represented.

Remove the presidential power as it is now, install a proper representative democracy with a parliament that includes more parties and reduce the extreme lobbying culture, especially criminalization of lobbying money, seen as it can easily be corrupted into a form bribery, giving more people to the rich than to the people.

There are so many ways to improve a political system, but all I can see is a patchwork trying to calm everyone into a bureaucratic system that obscures the cogs.

Trump is just a populist in the purest sense of the word. Populism is a reaction to a failed political establishment.

We're seeing the exact same thing happen in my home country, however we aren't as melodramatic about it.

Part of Trump's power isn't even about him.

It's that people absolutely despise the Bluegeoisie and the destruction they've wrought on society.

They destroy livelihoods and lives, destroy bonds between family and friends, destroy any and every institution they govern.

They're tone policing, cry-bullying, joy-killing, emotionally incontinent hacks, whose attempts at imposing their "Progressive" theocracy onto the rest of us has created a society in which we're more lonely, loveless, depressed and stupid than ever, and in which our youth are more lost and hopeless than ever.

All this, while maintaining 100% confidence in their intellectual and moral supremacy over everyone else.

The support for Trump extends far beyond the man himself—it's that people want to see a peevish, arrogant, and nakedly contemptuous pseudo-aristocracy punished for its abuses, and re-electing the Orange Man is clearly THE most effective way to do it.

Trump is just a populist in the purest sense of the word. Populism is a reaction to a failed political establishment. — Tzeentch

Except the driving forces underneath is far more spread out than just Trump. And the inability to guard against these people being granted so much power risks destabilizing the entire system. Populists in other nations, like here in Sweden, are part of a parliament structure in which if they took things too far it would just prompt previously unheard of collaborations between parties in order to just snuff out their stupid ideas. It's close to impossible to push their populist ideas into reality because the parliament actually represents the democratic voice of the people. Enough people stand up against their bullshit and so enough politicians do so as well.

But in the US there's an undercurrent of white supremacy Christian fundamentalism that is infecting the halls of power more and more over time. And the people and other political figures are becoming more and more desensitized to it, slowly moving pushing the limits of what's tolerated in politics.

This is why I say that Trump is just a symptom; he's become a front figure and "mascot" of the movement. But surrounding him, supporting him and working their way into more power, are the evangelical fundamentalists together with pure capitalists, who take advantage of the uneducated masses to a point it's forming an actual cult. It's not voters anymore that are just voting within political ideas, it's a fundamentalist cult brewing underneath the capitol.

It's the kind of thing that is a joke... until it isn't.

It's that people absolutely despise the Bluegeoisie and the destruction they've wrought on society.

They destroy livelihoods and lives, destroy bonds between family and friends, destroy any and every institution they govern.

They're tone policing, cry-bullying, joy-killing, emotionally incontinent hacks, whose attempts at imposing their "Progressive" theocracy onto the rest of us has created a society in which we're more lonely, loveless, depressed and stupid than ever, and in which our youth are more lost and hopeless than ever.

All this, while maintaining 100% confidence in their intellectual and moral supremacy over everyone else.

The support for Trump extends far beyond the man himself—it's that people want to see a peevish, arrogant, and nakedly contemptuous pseudo-aristocracy punished for its abuses, and re-electing the Orange Man is clearly THE most effective way to do it. — Chisholm

And this is their false narrative, perpetuated by pseudo-intellectuals online. It's primarily just white men who're angry that their patriarchal power has been diminished, so they construct this conspiracy narrative that all this progress is some intentional plan by some organized "enemy" on the left.

No, it's society slowly adjusting to rid itself of past injustices and some people who were favored by the old ways can't cope with this modern life. So they lash out in any direction that resembles a representation of this societal progress, slowly turning themselves into white supremacist, racist, transphobic, homophobic extremists who cluster around evangelist influencers, techno-kings and tech bros who look like them and think like them.

It's the same making of extreme ideologies as in any other time in history. Take the part of the population that are angry and showing resentment about progress and be the beacon of hope for them and using their anger to radicalize them into a cult following. With enough of them it is possible to take control and some of them will follow you into death.

This plague of Curtis Yarvin's (see above) and similar people's ideas are pure extremist ideologies. And not recognizing it and how it affects US politics is dangerous.

The support for Trump extends far beyond the man himself—it's that people want to see a peevish, arrogant, and nakedly contemptuous pseudo-aristocracy punished for its abuses, and re-electing the Orange Man is clearly THE most effective way to do it. — Chisholm

That's the Bannon message in a nutshell. The joke will be on those people when their fortunes decline further through the expansion of monied interests at their expense. I wonder if the pain inflicted upon some of their neighbors will be a sufficient return on their investment.

The Libertarians of past generations have given way to billionaires swapping spit with a group who promises authoritative solutions to political problems. As Carlson said at a recent rally, Daddy is coming home to spank the bad little girl.

people want to see a peevish, arrogant, and nakedly contemptuous pseudo-aristocracy punished for its abuses — Chisholm

I thought you were describing trump. Woops.

It always amuses me that the person these people chose to save them from the aristocrats is a perfect example of a spoiled child aristocrat.

How is it so hard to draw the line? Are people so morally illiterate to not be able to judge if Trump is suitable as a presidential candidate or not? — Christoffer

You find it difficult to answer this question? If so, you're not paying attention. Hint: they're not morally illiterate.

what are you saying they are? Just immoral?

Not by their own standards, I'm sure.

Yes, indeed. Watching them debase themselves beneath his mere presence is a persistent joy, but their behavior indicates the beginnings of a reactionary movement the likes of which we have never seen. Hurt and wounded, but always confident, Anti-Trumpism will not give up power so easily.

They're tone policing, cry-bullying, joy-killing, emotionally incontinent hacks, whose attempts at imposing their "Progressive" theocracy onto the rest of us has created a society in which we're more lonely, loveless, depressed and stupid than ever, and in which our youth are more lost and hopeless than ever. — Chisholm

Give me liberal tears!

And there is the gnashing of their teeth and the lamentations of their women to hope for.

A thread of humiliation weaves the bromance into a single hair shirt.