I don’t know what you mean by asking if we “must” see a difference. If we have working eyes then we will see a difference. — Michael
If you cannot visually determine that a human has a head and that a zygote is a single cell then you are either blind or hallucinating. — Michael
So I still see you asserting facts, visual differences in an objective world no longer subject to debate or choices, that working eyes will see, must see, are clear… — Fire Ologist
Are you just a collection of particles or are you something more? This is where religion probably comes into play. — RogueAI
I’m at least a collection of particles.
That’s all I need to be to have this conversation. — Fire Ologist
I don't think you trust my answers for some reason. And I'm curious why but really would rather hear some sort of argument relating to abortion from you. — Fire Ologist
There is an independent material world, and two facts about that material world are that adults have heads and that zygotes are a single cell. Given the way that objects reflect light, the way light stimulates the eyes, and the way the brain responds to the eyes, looking at an adult is going to cause a significantly different visual experience than looking at a zygote. — Michael
That is exactly right. — Fire Ologist
you've just sealed your death — praxis
“There is an independent material world” is itself an essentialist — Fire Ologist
I don’t think it helps at all to have this conversation in religious terms. — Fire Ologist
Whether or not some entity is a member of some biological taxonomy is of the latter kind [a game], not the former [essentialist like asserting a triangle]. — Michael
Matter and cells - some we are made of, some we eat, What's the difference? — unenlightened
Secret religions — praxis
I think some religious people think that the reason human beings are valuable is because they have a soul, and souls come from God at conception. Great. Wonderful for them. But there is nothing to argue about there, nothing to talk about, nothing to measure and no explanatory power. — Fire Ologist
Even that doesn't work. People with Klinefelter syndrome have 47 chromosomes, and there is also a condition where a person has 48 chromosomes.My argument is everything is arbitrary after you have a living organism with 46 chromosomes. — Fire Ologist
(e.g. intelligent aliens would be non-human persons) — Michael
People with Klinefelter syndrome have 47 chromosomes, and there is also a condition where a person has 48 chromosomes. — Relativist
My argument is everything is arbitrary after you have a living organism with 46 chromosomes. Waiting for thought capabilities, or desiring or sentience is like waiting for laughter or pooping, or any other activity. Also, my argument is a sort of reductio ad absurdum - if a person is thinking, then to be consistent, many newborns are not persons. I think that's not an explanation of person that anyone is after. — Fire Ologist
There isn’t just one aspect to being human obviously. — praxis
Can anyone else say that what a person is, or what a human being is, and most importantly, when either one of these pops into existence? — Fire Ologist
Exceptions demonstrate the problem with a rule. Suppose we establish the rule (as a law) that a 6-month fetus is a human being. There are instances where the carrying to term of a (damaged) 6-month fetus will kill the mother. The rule would necessitate killing the mother.We could figure out exceptions to the rule. But we need a rule first. Is anything a human being? — Fire Ologist
Can anyone else say that what a person is, or what a human being is, and most importantly, when either one of these pops into existence?
— Fire Ologist
No. — Banno
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