Oh dear, I was completely wrong. My deep commiserations! Your government cannot make life much better, but it sure can make it worse.

If George Washington was the father of America’s democracy, Donald Trump is its undertaker

George Washington notably declared American democracy to be “an experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people”.

The American people are now abandoning it as a failed experiment.

In word and in deed, Donald Trump for years has made plain that he does not respect the results of elections, unless he is winning.

Yet most American voters, in full knowledge, cast their ballots for him in this election.

In case anyone had forgotten his autocratic instinct, Trump issued a reminder just two days before election day.

He has never accepted the outcome of the 2020 election, fomented a riot to try to stay in the White House, and on Sunday said that “I shouldn’t have left” it.

Seven in 10 Americans understood the risk, telling CNN pollsters last week that they didn’t expect Trump would concede defeat if he lost. Yet most voters willingly handed him power.

If Washington was the father of America’s democracy, Trump has auditioned to be its undertaker and is now positioned to duly deliver.

He didn’t have to seize power. America, the modern world’s greatest champion of democracy for the past eight decades, has lost faith in its calling.

That is the true uniqueness of this election – not the candidates, not the policies, not the pageantry. They matter. And, in a democratic system, the power holders and their policies can be replaced, renewed, reviewed.

But in an autocracy, an absolute leader is not interested in being replaced nor his policies reviewed. The great advantage of democracy is not that it produces the best possible government but the bloodless removal of a bad one, as Karl Popper said.

Trump has made clear, over and again, that, if given power, he will not surrender it. As he said to an audience this year, vote for him “just this time, you won’t have to do it any more. Four more years, you know what? It’ll be fixed, it’ll be fine, you won’t have to vote any more”.

When Joe Biden took power, he said he would try to save American democracy.

“From the very beginning, nothing has been guaranteed about democracy in America,” he said in 2022. “Every generation has had to defend it, protect it, preserve it, choose it.”

Until now. Biden and his vice president, Kamala Harris, failed.

Democracy has been in retreat on planet Earth since the “democratic recession” took hold at the time of the global financial crisis 16 years ago. Only 24 full democracies survive among the world’s 200 nations, according to The Economist’s Democracy Index.

And now the centrepiece of the system, the hub of a network of democratic allies embracing more than 40 nations, has collapsed in on itself.

American democracy was hollowed out by a failure of its promise to its people. Most Americans believe that their country is riddled with corruption, most believe that government serves the elites and not the people, and “nearly half of all voters are sceptical that the American experiment in self-governance is working”, to summarise a New York Times poll published last month.

And now they have delivered the death sentence to the system they feel betrayed them.

Not because they expect Trump to actually fix a broken system. In her landmark work, The Politics of Resentment, political scientist Katherine Cramer described how she took regular part in a wide range of community groups in her home state of Wisconsin, one of the swing states in deciding elections and part of the great swath of left-behind, fly-over America.

When Kramer asks groups of Trump supporters how they expect he will improve their lives, they are surprised at the question, she reports. They don’t expect Trump to be the vehicle for their improvement but for their disenchantment and anger.

When Trump said last year “for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution”, he spoke for those voters. They have given up on their system, feeling abandoned by smug big-city elites, but have confidence in Trump to offend the elites and damage their system.

The US, the nation that kept liberty alive in the face of a fearsome axis of autocracies eight decades ago, seems to be losing confidence that it’s worth the effort.

Will Trump’s America be prepared to confront the rising partnership of autocracies in their fast-forming new front – Xi Jinping’s China, Vladimir Putin’s Russia, the ayatollahs’ Iran and
Kim Jong-un’s North Korea?

It must be in question. A former Trump national security adviser, H.R. McMaster, explained why Trump prefers the world’s worst dictators to America’s traditional allies. It’s part of “his struggle for self-worth”. If he’s accepted by so-called strongmen, “he might convince others, and especially himself, that he was strong”.

Benjamin Franklin said that America was “a republic, if you can keep it”. He might be surprised to know that, in the end, it just gave democracy away. — Peter Hartcher, Sydney Morning Herald

Let's see how long it will take for the gullible voters to realize that Trump doesn't give a shit about them.

Because now they own everything and will have no problems installing whatever policy they like.

The rational concept is to never treat his voters as stupid. To listen and understand why they vote for him. But listening to voters outside the voting halls, in interviews that weren't pre-planned democratic hit pieces trying to find the bottom of the barrel... they're still not convincing me that they aren't stupid. It's just not as blunt as the Maga trumpsters being portrayed so far; it's more that they simply either do not understand the basics of economy or have any actual insight into the actual policies and politics that's been done.

So many people just don't understand why there's inflation. Some people think the Trump tariffs will grant them more income because they believe it's the other nations who pay them. Or that Biden's strategies to fight inflation was the cause of the inflation, not the Ukraine war and it's energy politics, and the pandemic screwing around with the global market.

I know children in school who learn this shit when they're around 12, who understand the basics of it.

If anything, this just confirms the notion that people are gullible and stupid. What's the point in listening to these people complaining in ways that have no relation to the real world? It's just emotional garbage reasoning, it's just biases and fallacies and a basic inability to have integrity towards manipulators. It's impossible to meet their wants and needs since they live on another planet.

We've had 80 years of processing "why the German people where so stupid in following Hitler", there's been literature, shows, theatre, movies and even video games handling the concepts and intellectual discussion with the public about why people follow charismatic leaders who doesn't give a shit about them.

Hell, THIS YEAR we had one of the biggest stories about this turn into a massive cinematic hit in Dune part 2, that is primarily about this concept. But in hindsight... there are so many people who just shouted "Lisan al Gaib" when watching the movie, believing in Paul in the same way as the fremen people. How the point of the story went right over the heads of the gullible... again.

No, these people deserve the sledge hammer of reality to the face. Maybe this time, when Trump policies aren't blocked by democrats in other sectors of the government; the people will actually, finally, open their fucking eyes.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/944859

@180 Proof? — Mikie

I was wrong. :zip:

Too much noise to do any predicting. I was hoping along with you.

As Mao said: "All is chaos under the heavens, the times are excellent." The EU is too inflexible to take advantage of this but we know Russia, India and China will. And of those I'd rather have India do well than the other two.

A defeat for the US establishment is a win for the rest of the world.

That remains to be seen.

Too much noise to do any predicting. I was hoping along with you. — Benkei

But the world is globally moving in the direction of post-truth behaviors. And in such a climate, you can't have an election if there are no laws preventing lies. Lies and opinions aren't the same thing. A post-truth world thrives in lies because voters doesn't care what is true, reasonable or good even for them, they go with the narrative that is emotionally good for them. This is what fuels people like Trump.

So there's no surprise that we see more of this. Economic turmoil and world uncertainty almost always generates a populist response.

The problem people have when trying to analyze the world is that their political bias also produces a cognitive bias. People leaning towards the left have been living in a delusional idea that things can't get worse. They believe that the good will prevail.

If there's one position where I've been trying to be for a long time, it's on the side of truth, to the best of my ability. That doesn't make me an unmoving static centrist, no, I think that this political categorization and labeling of everyone around us needs to fucking stop.

There's only two sides right now. The side of the lies, filled with populists, criminals, corruption, war and hate. And the side of truth, filled with rational reasoning, scientific methods and thinking, problem solving, humanism and collaboration.

What the post-truth world needs is better ways of streamlining how we reach truth. Better ways of how to cut through the noise of lies and bullshit in order to collaborate for a better future for all.

Right now, there are no tools of a democratic society to handle post-truth representatives and their followers, because the very thing that a democratic society was founded on were that people followed actual truth. When truth disappears because the tools of rationality and reasoning gets demolished, we also lose the foundation for a democratic nation to function properly.

In essence, democracies of the world today aren't equipped to handle a post-truth movement. It doesn't win on arguments for truth, it doesn't win on policy that are meant to improve society, it wins on noise, lies and a people who don't care about truth anymore.

What good is a democracy when no one votes based on truth and politicians don't have to fear any truths? In which you only have to be charismatic and make noise to win. Then the actual politics doesn't matter anymore. It's not an election about what matters for people, it's a popularity contest that risk people's lives.

I think the democratic world needs to wake up and look at the system itself. To stop thinking that just having a democratic system, regardless of its quality, is as good as it gets.

The world needs to politically evolve into caring more for truth. Otherwise we will all live in the utter chaos of a fully post-truth society where nothing matters to people and no one knows where to even begin to find answers to what's actually going on.

A defeat for the US establishment is a win for the rest of the world. — Tzeentch

In what way?

I guess. He kind of did some of this during his last term too.

Well, four more years for them to see everything burn.

Give me liberal tears!

Those are plentiful! Liberals cry about everything. :)

A defeat for the US establishment is a win for the rest of the world. — Tzeentch

Nah, hold your machiavellian ass. If you truly think they will get destroyed by their own idiosyncrasy, well, that is unlikely to happen.

The lesson:

Never act in panic. This was a big mistake the democrats did this year. In panic they replaced Old Joe with laughing Kamalahaha.

I saw that June debate between Biden and Trump and to tell you the truth I saw Joe being too old, but I sympathized with him for the reason that Joe Biden was putting effort to answer the questions of the journalists, whereas Donald Trump was not answering any questions.

Kamalahaha believed that "kindhearted democrats" need good vibes, not answers. That was a big mistake and I hope Pelosi, Clooney and Kamalahaha fire themselves from the Democratic Party, cause they will be complicit in this crazy comeback of climate-change deniers, gun-loving, god-fearing, republicans.

Stop blaming middle-class Americans for this ugly outcome! Democrats should blame themselves and their corporate media only. One of the very few things I came to agree with JD Vance is that corporate media are the biggest threat to American democracy on this day.

I saw Max Richter in concert last night. He played the album, Blue notebooks, which he wrote 20yrs ago in protest against the Iraq war.
Sublime experience. — Punshhh

I'm so envious! I listen to Max Richter at least once a week. Also Nils Frahm.

Trump's vice president leans toward project 2025, which is about removing opposition to Trump from the federal government. Plus he favors dictatorship, so the coming years might be pretty interesting. More isolationism, maybe a transition to dictatorship by the end of the century?

Trump's vice president leans toward project 2025, which is about removing opposition to Trump from the federal government. Plus he favors dictatorship, so the coming years might be pretty interesting. More isolationism, maybe a transition to dictatorship by the end of the century? — frank

I don't think so. Post-truth can only survive as a society so far as to give people nothing for their devotion to bullshit. And any attempts to install authoritarian leaders by ripping the constitution and dismantling guardrails of democracy will lead to civil war before any such authoritarian regime takes place.

Another scenario is that the nation gets divided so much it actually breaks apart. With a Christian fundamentalist society spread across the deep red states making up a new nation, while the rest and blue states form their own. It's usually what happens if a divide gets too polarized and doesn't lead to civil war. So, in your scenario of dictatorship, it would be a nation with an authoritarian leader built upon Christian fundamentalism akin to Islamic fundamentalism in the middle east.

It could very well end up in a similar image of Margaret Atwood's Gilead.

While something like this shouldn't be brushed off as pessimistic fear mongering, I do think that such a future is unlikely. Primarily because there are enough people who don't want it and they are only passive about it until it seriously threatens them. If Trump tries anything drastic these four years, I believe there will be enough republicans who are rational enough to block it, since not all are Trump fundamentalists. And the blowback from these coming four years will likely spark a major return for the democrats in which they might realize how in danger the nation is, installing enough protections from leaders like Trump and maybe even reforming the democratic process nationwide to fit more up to date democratic systems in the world.

If there is a crisis, or civil war happening in the next 50 years, I think that the US will transform into a proper parliament and abandon the old system. The bipartisan system is so broken that it's not a democracy anymore and people are fed up with this "voting for the least bad" type of election.

People will get fed up with idiots running things, especially when the real consequences kick in.

No, these people deserve the sledge hammer of reality to the face. Maybe this time, when Trump policies aren't blocked by democrats in other sectors of the government; the people will actually, finally, open their fucking eyes. — Christoffer

The world needs to politically evolve into caring more for truth. Otherwise we will all live in the utter chaos of a fully post-truth society where nothing matters to people and no one knows where to even begin to find answers to what's actually going on. — Christoffer

:100: :100:

I listen to Max Richter at least once a week. — frank

I love his soundtrack for The Leftovers.

"Brace for impact." - Chesley Sullenberger.

I love his soundtrack for The Leftovers. — Michael

me too. :heart:

A historic campaign and the greatest political comeback in history. Not even bullets could stop the Trump train!

Sadly, the live-action-roleplay of his opponents continue. Fighting an imaginary fascism involves erecting an actual one, so I suspect political violence, institutional subordination, and a captured press will be working diligently to disrupt the Trump regime. Luckily the people aren’t buying it anymore.

I was wrong. :zip: — 180 Proof

Yeah, most people were I think. But this scenario wasn’t outside possibility— just sucks when it actually happens.

To me there is no shadow of a doubt that Trump will win. There are authoritarian tendencies rising in the world and the economy is hurting many people. Those two tendencies lead me to think Trump will win and there is a high turn out among republicans..

A fair point, but I actually thought this pointed in the other direction. Trump won after Brexit, with the Fac Five all winning or most winning right around that time.

Theresa Mayhem and Mo Mojo Bojo
2Dirty Dueterte
Majorly Magnificent Modi
Make Europe Great Again Le Pen (didn't quite win, but making it to the final was an unexpected win)
Outlandish Orban

:cool:

And we might also include Big Boy Bolsonaro and the apparent strength of Rootin Tootin Putin.

But since then the right wing waves have largely broken. Most of those people are out. The UK just had a hard shift the other way, and Modi lost a ton of seats, while Bibi is also looking in very rough shape. Xi is facing a Chinese economy facing a major, potentially sea change slow down. Meanwhile, Putin, the sort of arch mascot led his country into a disastrous war that destroyed and badly embarrassed his military, and had to flee his capital due to a mercenary coup.

To be sure, the anemic Western response in Ukraine (sending a handful of tanks years after it has become clear that sending actually meaningful numbers won't cause a catastrophic escalation, being unable to match Russian and North Korean shell production, etc.) is also embarrassing.

Yet in general, Trump's win seems more against the (short term) currents than with it. TBH, the exit polls make it seem like this is more of the Democrats than anything else. Biden had no business running for a second term and Harris was a bad candidate. That exit polls suggest that Trump lost significant support from white voters and yet seems likely to win the popular vote (the first GOP non-incumbent to do so in almost 40 years) should be a wake up call on Democrats. It seems to me that immigration is the number one issue carrying the far-right across the West and so far the liberal establishment in North America and Europe has largely refused to budge on it.

Of course, when far/further right parties win elections in Western countries they also don't really change immigration either. Trump seems to have the House and Senate, so we'll see. I think they will be far more interested in cementing systems or minority rule, cutting taxes, and removing various regulations than actually cutting off the supply of cheap labor or fixing the debt.

I'm so envious! I listen to Max Richter at least once a week. Also Nils Frahm.

Yes, Nils Frahm too, of course.

I love his soundtrack for The Leftovers.

Yes, likewise.

Trump won because he got more votes. That sounds simplistic, but my point is that people did not vote for the principles Trump represents. They didn't vote for fascism, and most don't understand what rule-of-law means. Trump was good at telling them what they wanted to hear: simple explanations and solutions for the perceived negatives in their lives. Trump amplified and leveraged pessimism. Few voters make an effort to understand the impact of policy proposals.

Deporting millions of immigrants sounds appealing to those who buy into scapegoating them for some problems in society, but it ignores the negative consequences. I don't think anything good can possibly come of it, if it actually comes to pass. It will fix no problems, it will just make some people happy that these "others" are out of our midst. It can't solve the real problems - that would require changing the laws, and Trump has told that's not necessary - his "extreme power" is all that's needed.

Deficit spending is a big concern for many, so slashing $2T from the budget sounds like the right thing to do. That exceeds the total amount spent on discretionary spending, so it would have to entail cuts to "mandatory" spending, including Social Security, Medicare, Veterans benefits, and the military. Wherever the cuts are made, that will negatively impact the recipients. On a macro level, decreased government spending will be contractionary to the economy - there will be less money in circulation, decreasing GDP - thus negatively impacting the economy as a whole.

Huge tarriffs will increase the prices of imported goods - so it will be directly inflationary. It is likely to result in retaliatory tarriffs that will decrease demand for US goods, so that will negatively impact manufacturing jobs - this will be balanced against the increased demand for domestic manufacturing, so there will be this win - but it's an macro balancing, not a micro one: some individual producers will do better (adding jobs) while others will do worse (losing jobs).

Removing taxes on Social Security income will benefit only higher income recipients (this includes me, BTW), and it will deplete the SS Trust fund 2 years earlier (from 10 to 8 years). Deporting undocumented immigrants, who pay into SS but will never receive benefits) will hurt it even more.

I don't know if Trump will actually do the things he promised. I hope not. But if he doesn't, his voters will be pissed. If he does, there will be serious negative impacts. That's the problem with simplistic proposals for complex problems. So it seems to me Trump is in a lose-lose situation. The good news: this bodes well for the next election cycle.

All i can really say is, hehehe. This was the obvious outcome. It seemed clear to me at least a year out. I very much hope Mikie is getting the help he needs right now. Hands across America.

It seemed clear to me at least a year out. — AmadeusD

Now it seems that 'It seemed clear to most people at least a year out' since he won Pennsylvania twelve hours ago.  :roll:

I don't know if Trump will actually do the things he promised. I hope not. But if he doesn't, his voters will be pissed. If he does, there will be serious negative impacts. That's the problem with simplistic proposals for complex problems. So it seems to me Trump is in a lose-lose situation. The good news: this bodes well for the next election cycle. — Relativist

He doesn't need to do them and would be better off not doing them. Things won't change but he can bullshit his way into telling people they have gotten better and alot of people may buy it. Of course I think he probably will do alot of them unfortunately. He sounds very passionate about tariffs as the solution to everything and he did do a trade war with China the last time around (though this time will be way more widespread and intense). Will people be swayed by his statements that he solved inflation despite prices likely increasing from the tariffs and them criticizing the Dems for being out of touch in the past 4 years? Maybe, I really cannot say, but it doesn't really matter at this point since they'll be dealing with it all the same.

Never act in panic. This was a big mistake the democrats did this year. In panic they replaced Old Joe with laughing Kamalahaha. — Eros1982

I can point to alot of things that Dems did wrong (like running with the Cheneys while snubbing the Palestinians in their base) but replacing Joe was one of the only reasonable things they did this election cycle. Joe Biden was ultimately the biggest drag on the party even after dropping out and his connection to Kamala was what doomed her more than anything.

The problem with the Dems was what we saw these past few election cycles: the Dems never listen to their base. They could've let the voters decide who should best represent them but why do that and risk someone who the party establishment can't control when they can have one of their goons be nominated instead? The last time they didn't do that was in 2008 with a dark horse named Obama and look how that turned out for them. Clinton, Biden, and Harris were all terrible candidates. Clinton was massively unpopular when she ran in 2016, Biden couldn't even win the first few primaries despite being the frontrunner, and Harris didn't even get any votes in any of her primaries. But they were all nominated anyways and often through some shady tactics that undermined any opposition. Maybe next time they will let the party decide, but who knows if there will be a next time.