the polarization is due to economic pressures, not ideology. — baker
↪Joshs If you'd have read and understood what I've posted, you'd know that my use of the descriptor "Post Truth era" doesn't reference "ideological combatants". — LuckyR
We can't ignore how individualism and neoliberalism combined disconnected people from each other. The formation of individuals who were brought up into believing they were the protagonists in contemporary history, that they, if they want, could be whatever they chose to be; a movie star? A successful business owner? The next president?
The cognitive dissonance facing adult life or older people realizing they never became anything they thought they would be transforms into anger and disappointment towards the narrative they were programmed to believe. This anger and disappointment therefor gets aimed at whatever is available to be blamed. Clustering in radicalized gatherings around a similar aim; "that group is to blame", "this ideology is to blame — Christoffer
But I don’t believe that their anger is directed at the “ narrative they were programmed to believe” if by this you are referring to that traditionalist worldview and its associated values. — Joshs
I'm saying that individualism and neoliberalism is not so much an ideological stance but a form of values and ideals which have replaced a more balanced and collectively inclusive perspective on life. This, in turn produces polarized groups when the inflated expectations of life clash with reality and thus produce a reaction in the form of blame that these groups gather around — Christoffer
Trump didn't cause the problem; he exploited it and exacerbated it.'Post-truth' is a system the US establishment has created, which might indeed be described as such. Trump moves within that system, but he isn't the cause or even a principal part of the problem. — Tzeentch
Trump didn't cause the problem; he exploited it and exacerbated it. — Relativist
Unlike you , I make no moral judgements of individualism or neoliberalism as an ‘unrealistic’, ‘unbalanced’ , ‘regressive’ value system. I think all such value systems work for their adherents, but each works in a different way , and it’s the clashes between incommensurate systems that causes the problems we’re seeing today with political polarization. I suggest that it is not cognitive dissonance that is causing the anger among social conservatives, but the justified sense that they are being talked down to by people like you who believe they have some superior moral or objective vantage and try to shove it down their throats. I am a progressive , but I dont claim that my perspective is morally or objectively superior to other ways of thinking. — Joshs
Hell yes!But so did the establishment media, no? — Tzeentch
The media is giving their customers what they want. How did we get here? The pivotal point in history was when the FCC, under Reagan, revoked the Fairness Doctrine.The establishment has dominated the media for decades. They have operated on 'post-truth' principles for just as long.
The difference is that now there are multiple actors operating on 'post-truth' principles and the resulting bullshit cacophony makes it impossible not to notice something is wrong.
Who is blind? And authoritarian misses the mark. What I'm about is some minimum degree responsibility and accountability, and in gentler times these things usually just flow. But not now. Where once folks were more-or-less responsible and accountable, now they're not. And either we have them or we don't. I say we should have them, and where folks deny them, to impose them.he blind leading the blind, the blind judging the blind?
You don't see just how authoritarian you are. — baker
Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. Any return to "fairness" ideals would be treated as an assault on free speech. The dark corollary of free speech is the right to lie. So the only thing we can hope to do is to help people learn to seek truth. — Relativist
What I'm about is some minimum degree responsibility and accountability, and in gentler times these things usually just flow. But not now. Where once folks were more-or-less responsible and accountable, now they're not. And either we have them or we don't. I say we should have them, and where folks deny them, to impose them. — tim wood
On the subject of how individualism fostered the post-truth society, [...] — Christoffer
The issues with major news organizations are not fatal. They are selective in what they report, but that's dealt with by using multiple sources. They usually report facts; the problem is the interpretations of those facts. It's usually possible to distinguish fact from interpretation. Opinion shows (which dominate cable "news" stations) are entertainment, not news.It appears the only way forward is for the common people to completely reject traditional sources of information, and rebuild the truth from the bottom up. — Tzeentch
I argue that all formations of empirical truth are and always have been socially constructed according to forms of meaning and value which change from era to era. This doesn’t mean that truth is ‘fake’, but that what you would call bias, distortion and prejudice are necessarily built into what it means to produce truth., that its meaning is contextually and social situated
What is different about the contemporary era compared with previous periods of history is not that it is Post Truth, but that a growing number of people are only now recognizing in our highly polarized times what has always been the case, but was until recently denied in favor of a ‘God’s eye’ view of truth, the inextricable relation between socially formed practices and the determination of truth. — Joshs
Surely you are aware of the questionable relationship history's various collectivist projects had with the truth? Hell, it was the commies who formed the OG post-truth societies. — Tzeentch
The problem is, all sources of authority have adopted 'post-truth'; governments, international institutions, media, science - it's all tainted.
It appears the only way forward is for the common people to completely reject traditional sources of information, and rebuild the truth from the bottom up. I suppose it's just a matter of time before the house of cards comes tumbling down and people will be forced to do so. — Tzeentch
I suggest that it is not cognitive dissonance that is causing the anger among social conservatives, but the justified sense that they are being talked down to by people like you who believe they have some superior moral or objective vantage and try to shove it down their throats. I am a progressive , but I dont claim that my perspective is morally or objectively superior to other ways of thinking. — Joshs
Wouldn't that require complete abandonment of culture and society, medicine and technology? — Wayfarer
If you actually read and understand me first you would understand that I argue that post-truth is a problem within the public itself and their relation to truth and how to evaluate who's honest and who's a liar. Communist regimes used and use state violence methods to craft narratives that the public follow by force or indoctrination, it's not the same thing as what post-truth is about. — Christoffer
Since the end of the Cold War, western governments (with the US at the helm) have dominated the information landscape and abused that position to influence their population in a way that can only aptly be described as 'brainwashing'. — Tzeentch
I could stand on a street corner in Washington DC and pass out flyers [...] — Wayfarer
Oh, I disagree with that definition of post-truth. — Tzeentch
People in general do not become delusional voluntarily. Some outside force is necessary, like a corrupt government elite that feeds them propaganda, and uses censorship to block off all roads to the truth. — Tzeentch
Since the end of the Cold War, western governments (with the US at the helm) have dominated the information landscape and abused that position to influence their population in a way that can only aptly be described as 'brainwashing'. — Tzeentch
Communist regimes functioned in exactly the same way, essentially holding a monopoly on information within the totalitarian state. — Tzeentch
Today, that western/elite domination of media has been broken, hence we notice something is terribly wrong and call it 'post-truth'. But we have been living in this 'post-truth' reality since 1991 onward, and it started perhaps even before that. — Tzeentch
The difference is that now large amounts of people are able to tell something's wrong, which they simply couldn't before due to the totality of the propaganda system. — Tzeentch
Ignoring the largest contributor to our modern world, social media. The elite do not have that much control over those channels, [...] — Christoffer
If you find it difficult to believe that government elites conspire against the common people, I don't know what to tell you. Open your eyes? — Tzeentch
If you really need to be given proof for the major influence governments have on public opinion then you must have been living under a rock for the past couple decades.
If you need a place to start I would read Manufactoring Consent by Noam Chomsky. — Tzeentch
And anyone who seems to JUST read Noam Chomsky will only have that perspective and regurgitating only his ideas.
I was waiting for you to name-drop him, as this inability to understand what I'm talking about is common among those who don't read much more than his writings. — Christoffer
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.