Hope
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hope/

Edit: javi2541997 - I see you have deleted your post. Why? — Amity

Yes, sorry, Amity. After reading my post again, I realised that it wasn't well elaborated. I saw that you didn't reply to my post yet, so I thought I was in time to delate what I wrote before you could read it. 

But I see I was wrong because you quoted a paragraph of that post in time.

I tend to be wary about what I write. Maybe too much, and maybe it wasn't a big deal.  :sweat:

I tend to be wary about what I write. Maybe too much, and maybe it wasn't a big deal. — javi2541997

I think we can all be wary about what we write - sometimes editing what we really think or feel.
And that's fair enough. It's good to be thoughtful and consider how we present our views to others. I too have deleted some posts. Regretting either the quality or quantity - my tone or whatever.

However, your thoughts stimulated without need for further elaboration. Imagining a 'what if' scenario :up: You are that Creative :fire:

I think that some of the things discussed about creativity are pertinent. To well-being.
The fear of making mistakes can block us. And that is where some education systems let us down.

Where mistakes are punished. And different kinds of intelligence are not explored or given free rein. There is a richness in imagination. A real gift if used wisely. To educate the whole being.

How can 'optimism' be 'inhumane'? — Amity

One example, at the personal and interpersonal level, is toxic positivty.

Otherwise, a few times on TPF I've made use of Terry Eagleton's distinction between hope and optimism. The way I see it, optimism, particularly with respect to society and history, has a tendency to disregard or minimize bad stuff, whereas hope does not.

I have plenty of experience with toxic positivity, and I've noticed that it is humourless. So my tentative scheme is like this: on one side we have optimism, humourlessness, and inhumanity--a lack of attention to real people and real experience--and on the other side we have hope and humour, where humour is often if not always built on an attention to misfortune.

Excellent News.

The Guardian said content on the platform about which it had longstanding concerns included far-right conspiracy theories and racism. It added that the site’s coverage of the US presidential election had crystallised its decision.

“This is something we have been considering for a while given the often disturbing content promoted or found on the platform, including far-right conspiracy theories and racism,” it said.

It added: “The US presidential election campaign served only to underline what we have considered for a long time: that X is a toxic media platform and that its owner, Elon Musk, has been able to use its influence to shape political discourse.” — Guardian - No longer posts on Elon Musk's X

...on one side we have optimism, humourlessness, and inhumanity--a lack of attention to real people and real experience--and on the other side we have hope and humour, where humour is often if not always built on an attention to misfortune. — Jamal

That's given me plenty to consider. My first reaction is that I don't care for the either/or scenario. Optimism includes hopefulness. But yes, I agree that some can minimise the bad stuff. To the extent that can be 'toxic' I have yet to explore.

I tend to go with hope and see it as a motivating force. To bring about change. And with that comes courage and creativity. A positive way forward. It can come from misfortune or simply wanting something better. It is a noun, a verb and a philosophical concept. Is optimism more of a psychological state or personality type? A few more P's added to the list.
From positive psychology: https://positivepsychology.com/learned-optimism/

Humour and a lack of it can travel alongside both, no?
Black humour. Is there such a thing as 'white humour'?

Here we go. The Guardian is taking it on :fire:

In addition to withdrawing from Musk's X, a reporter questions Project 2025.

Kevin Roberts, the head of the influential rightwing thinktank the Heritage Foundation, told a Guardian reporter to “go to hell” at the launch of Roberts’s new book on Tuesday night, then threw the reporter out of the venue, apparently in response to reporting on the organization.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/13/kevin-roberts-project-2025-book-events

No more invites, then? Pretty much what happened on the Tory watch with Channel 4 news blocked.
The hard right can't stand the light. No scrutiny allowed. So much for freedom.

Isn't there a need to explore all aspects of humans and their place in whatever worlds they find themselves in? — Amity

Sure, but I perceive no shortage of writers exploring the deepest, darkest crannies, describing the vilest acts in the most graphic terms. They don't need any help from me. I'm more interested in the small, everyday pleasures and pains, loyalties and betrayals, courageous and craven acts or ordinary people. Lately, I've been exploring how someone decides which side to take in a conflict. If my protagonists end up with the forces of light, I'm in no position to fault them.
I've written sad stories and happy ones; they tell me the tone they prefer.

I'm not sure about that judgment of optimism and hope. Have never thought about which is humane -- but then, I sniff around the word 'humane' like a poodle at the corner lamp-post. On reflection, I tend to reserve hope for specific situations, in which something bad is likely to happen, but may yet be averted, and optimism as a general outlook on life and the world. I have some hope for individuals, for ideas, for the preservation of seeds, culture and knowledge. But not for this civilization, about which I'm wholly pessimistic.

Small footnote about poetry in school. I've read some quite remarkable collections of children's poems, written as school assignment. I imagine the inept and resentful ones were omitted. I definitely think poetry should be taught - both reading and discussion and the mechanics of writing. I wouldn't force any child to submit a poem for grading, but I would test them on understanding.

Hope
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hope/ — Amity

Thanks. :up:

Fwiw, my conception of courage sans hope is primarily indebted to Aristotle, Spinoza & Camus (as well as e.g. Laozi, Epicurus, Epictetus, P. Zapffe, S. Beckett, C. Rosset, A. Murray ... who aren't mentioned in the article) and grounded in lived experience.

:death: :flower:

Fwiw, my conception of courage sans hope is primarily indebted to Aristotle, Spinoza & Camus (as well as e.g. Laozi, Epicurus, Epictetus, P. Zapffe, S. Beckett, C. Rosset, A. Murray ... who aren't mentioned in the article) and grounded in lived experience. — 180 Proof

Yes, I do appreciate that, thanks.
However, I don't have a full understanding of this and what it means for you. This conception of 'courage sans hope'. For those, like me, with limited time, energy and resources and not quite so invested in philosophical concepts, there is always wiki. From the mythology section on 'Hope':

From ancient times, people have recognized that a spirit of hope had the power to heal afflictions and helps them bear times of great suffering, illnesses, disasters, loss, and pain caused by the malevolent spirits and events.[48] In Hesiod's Works and Days, the personification of hope is named Elpis.

Norse mythology however considered Hope (Vön) to be the slobber dripping from the mouth of Fenris Wolf:[49] their concept of courage rated most highly a cheerful bravery in the absence of hope.[50 — Wiki - Hope

How does your conception of courage/hope compare with a Norse warrior?
Care to tell your story, or part of it? Sans salivating :wink:

My experience probably leans more to 'hope sans courage'.

I have hope and it asks nothing of or from me. It's just there. Along with love. I also 'hope that...X, Y or Z'.
Generally, it is a hope for better wellbeing. For individuals and other beings in the world.

I may have courage in dealing with challenging health issues and services. My own and others. But I think it always stems from or coexists with hope. There is hope, along with a sense of perspective.
A case of 'Hope for the best, prepare for the worse'. Or 'plan for the worse, hope for the best'.
A mix of optimism and being realistic.

***

In previous posts, I've mentioned Emily Dickinson's poem 'Hope' and how I was drawn to it.
It's interesting to consider her religious school curriculum where:

religious questions were examined and the state of the students’ faith assessed. The young women were divided into three categories: those who were “established Christians,” those who “expressed hope,” and those who were “without hope.”

Much has been made of Emily’s place in this latter category and of the widely circulated story that she was the only member of that group. Years later fellow student Clara Newman Turner remembered the moment when Mary Lyon “asked all those who wanted to be Christians to rise.” Emily remained seated. No one else did. Turner reports Emily’s comment to her: “‘They thought it queer I didn’t rise’—adding with a twinkle in her eye, ‘I thought a lie would be queerer.’ — Poetry Foundation - Emily Dickinson

Here is her poem: “Hope” is the thing with feathers. Read by Claire Danes and signed by Rachel, age 9.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/video/77372/hope-is-the-thing-with-feathers

***

In today's situation, I think that people such as yourself committed to a cause and willing to show up and fight for it have courage and also hope. Hope for a better future. Hope to persuade others.
Showing how Democratic values are different, better than those of hard-right Republicans.

It will need more of this hope and courage in the days to come.

Courage, mon ami :strong: :pray:

Sure, but I perceive no shortage of writers exploring the deepest, darkest crannies, describing the vilest acts in the most graphic terms. They don't need any help from me. I'm more interested in the small, everyday pleasures and pains, loyalties and betrayals, courageous and craven acts or ordinary people. Lately, I've been exploring how someone decides which side to take in a conflict. If my protagonists end up with the forces of light, I'm in no position to fault them. — Vera Mont

Hey. Steady on Vera!
I wasn't asking you to go deep, deep down into depravity or its torture chambers.
It was about you stopping at Chapter 3 because you couldn't keep your nasty character from turning nice. What's wrong with keeping complex and contradictory aspects of a character? Doesn't that make her richer with hidden depths?

Interesting to explore side-taking in conflict. How recent events can split families right down the middle.
How to heal that wound, if ever we can...

I sniff around the word 'humane' like a poodle at the corner lamp-post. — Vera Mont

Love it! :cool:

What's wrong with keeping complex and contradictory aspects of a character? Doesn't that make her richer with hidden depths? — Amity

Yes. But it wouldn't be a Gothic novel then; it would be literary fiction and I hadn't signed up for that much effort.* Even the one that I intended as a kind of spoof of historical romance turned itself into a subversive social commentary. Damn things just won't stay where I tell them to sit.
*Though, come to think of it.... I wonder where I put all those notes... Probably in the storage room, in a mouldy binder, yellowing...

I don't have a full understanding of this and what it means for you. This conception of 'courage sans hope'. — Amity

Consider again the sections featuring Aristotle, Spinoza & Camus in the SEP article on Hope –

e.g. "Sisyphus" endlessly rolling his philosopher's stone; casualties making love in the trenches and raising children in foxholes; the homeless singing the blues to momentarily chase away blue devils...

"You must go on. I can't go on. I'll go on."

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."

:fire:

Interesting to explore side-taking in conflict. — Amity

I didn't get into the big picture, just individuals: How their minds changed and what events brought that change about.

You've both given me much to think about :flower:
I have a few things I'd like to consider and question. Mostly, concerning hope and creativity. Later...

Before I go out, I have this article to share re global gender issues in politics. With stats:

What’s behind the global political divide between young men and women?
Trump’s victory in the US shone a light on the growing political polarisation between between young male and female voters happening all over the world

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/14/us-election-donald-trump-voters-gender-race-data

Sounds to me like the eternal social tension: competition vs co-operation, between vertical and horizontal society. In a vertical society, there are clear distinctions in status, in privileges and duties, in social and familial roles. While men are dominated by rulers and bosses, they have little control of their lives. If they lose superiority over an even lower caste of men, and then control of their household, what status, what source of pride do they have left? How they feel about that, we've been aware of the backlash for years, the bitter recriminations against women and minorities, the anxiety disguised as bravado. Moreover, with dwindling resources and growing population, the competition for the last of everything grows more fierce every day.
They want the middle ages back, because they cannot imagine anything better than having someone to kick down at while their masters give them attaboys.