:chin: Denying "the nightmare" – e.g. prayers in foxholes – 'nostalgia' (philosophical suicide) to evade the absurd (re: disorder, uncertainty, catastrophe, transience, loss, death). Sorry, more Camus ...

Sorry, still not getting it.

'Hope' is just lipstick on a nightmare.

Why 'lipstick'? With its female connotation?

How does it - or hope - amount to a denial of whatever 'nightmare' and how does it evade 'absurdity'?

Re: The Myth of Siayphus by A. Camus; also, section 2.5 (esp. re: Camus) of the SEP article "Hope" ...

Why 'lipstick'? With its female connotation?

Same reason anyone wears "lipstick".

I used it to paraphrase the old (American?) saying 'lipstick on a pig'. :kiss:

No, Vera, just No!! — Amity

I suppose it would have helped not to read the book, which happens to be among my top favourites.

But, hey, does it matter? — Amity

YES - to me. The tone, the flavour, the atmosphere, the focus - the very essence of the story was altered unrecognizably. If they wanted to make a vibrant, brilliant, over-the-top funny movie, they should have made their own movie, and I would have enjoyed it for itself. But I was promised Good Omens, in fact, it was the deciding factor in signing up to Prime instead of Netflix, and this wasn't it. If a book is worth adapting, I expect fidelity to it. John Irving was treated with respect...

What is that [tube with a window], pray tell?! — Amity

It's called a cat tunnel. Elaborate ones are available; we have the basic version, inherited from a neighbour who moved into a seniors' apartment with her old cat. I used to cut out cardboard boxes, but the tunnel is light and it rolls, which is apparently very amusing.

I often consult The Guardian myself, for clarity and objectivity. Michael Moore recommends it, along with CBC, for news on US affairs. (Pretty soon they won't have any uncoerced domestic sources)

This is a one-sided view. — Amity

I guess. I took it as an op-ed piece from the author's POV, on one aspect of the protracted male backlash. I'm not sure talking to adolescents is enlightening: they repeat what they hear from their social media, have little patience for honest self-examination and generally distrust non-peers. I sure never had much luck talking to the one I was raising, whereas the boys in technical school were happy to confide. Different approaches at different ages, by different adults.

I don't know how much time teachers have nowadays to spend with individual students, even if they didn't have to fear accusations of inappropriate behaviour. Boys' clubs, interest groups, community projects and informal sports under the leadership of male role models would be more are beneficial. I think teenaged boys today are cast adrift by society: shielded from adult concerns, excluded from decision-making, not given enough responsibility. They don't see a defined role for themselves, present or future; they don't feel needed and have few opportunities to earn respect. As far as commercial media are concerned, a man is a hero, a villain, a drudge or a booby - so all the young boobies try to appear heroic, without all the effort or resort to villainy.

*connecting, connecting* — Amity

I'm just glad I visited San Francisco in the 1980's, when it was colourful and charming, when we engaged in conversation or banter or at least commerce with many locals.
I'm also glad that, when not in my own bubble at home, I'm in one of several nearby communities where people still notice one another, hold elevators, smile at jokes in the checkout line and appreciate a compliment. They do all seem to have cellphones (I don't), but mainly just for consulting shopping lists or significant others, or passing the time in waiting rooms where the tv is silent and nobody turned on the captions. D'you know how unentertaining it is trying to deduce the asinine questions from the idiotic replies in Family Feud, or being warned, over and over, of the the dangers of gingivitis? My kindle doesn't hold a charge anymore; can only be read in bed.

Re: The Myth of Siayphus by A. Camus; also, section 2.5 (esp. re: Camus) of the SEP article "Hope" ... — 180 Proof

Thank you. I have read them both. Twice. Still not convinced by Camus, his assumptions and conclusions. Nor the examples of the 3 'absurd' men. I would have to read more and spend time to consider my initial response before a full, knowledgeable criticism. Not prepared to do this, right now.

To embrace the absurd implies embracing all that the unreasonable world has to offer. Without meaning in life, there is no scale of values. "What counts is not the best living but the most living."

Thus, Camus arrives at three consequences from fully acknowledging the absurd: revolt, freedom, and passion... — Wiki - The Myth of Sisyphus

Camus compares the absurdity of man's life with the situation of Sisyphus, a figure of Greek mythology who was condemned to repeat forever the same meaningless task of pushing a boulder up a mountain, only to see it roll down again just as it nears the top. The essay concludes, "The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy." — Wiki - The Myth of Sisyphus

I don't see any filling of a heart, male or otherwise. The myth is not about hope or courage. It was a punishment because he was stupid - how did he think he could control and chain Death? I don't imagine him happy. He does persevere but he had no choice. Courage means having a choice.

Courage (also called bravery, valour (British and Commonwealth English), or valor (American English)) is the choice and willingness to confront agony, pain, danger, uncertainty, or intimidation. Valor is courage or bravery, especially in battle.

- Wiki.

This does not compare in any comprehensive way to human struggles and joys in the world. The stories wider, deeper and more nuanced. Hope and Courage and Love.

Same reason anyone wears "lipstick". — 180 Proof

Yes. :roll: I am aware that it is not only women that wear it. You know, as well as I do, that it is mainly related to femininity. There are as many different reasons as there are colours and shades. Red, in particular, has history and symbolism:

This classic cosmetic has long been a symbol of femininity, empowerment, and self-expression
...a symbol of resistance against societal norms and expectations. During World War II, red lipstick became a symbol of hope and defiance against the oppressive Nazi regime. Women in the resistance wore red lipstick as a form of protest and to signal their solidarity with the cause. — Medium - Red lipstick

I used it to paraphrase the old (American?) saying 'lipstick on a pig'. :kiss: — 180 Proof

Well, that goes some way to explain your use. But the saying can still be read as female superficiality to change appearance. To mask or enhance. Lipstick as a coverup. To somehow 'deny and evade' the nightmare, the 'absurd' ?

This can be interpreted as a feminisation of Hope. Somehow 'weak', not strong enough to face life or see a lack of meaning in the world. How absurd!
Camus and Sisyphus can keep on rolling. It won't get them anywhere...and it ain't courageous.
In my opinion :kiss:

The tone, the flavour, the atmosphere, the focus - the very essence of the story was altered unrecognizably. — Vera Mont

Really? That's not what I read about it. If so, then yes, of course it matters.

A cat tunnel. Well, well, well. I think need the human version. Why should kittens have all the fun?

I don't know how much time teachers have nowadays to spend with individual students, even if they didn't have to fear accusations of inappropriate behaviour. Boys' clubs, interest groups, community projects and informal sports under the leadership of male role models would be more are beneficial. — Vera Mont

I didn't mean with individual students but as part of learning. The author talked of critical thinking.
I agree that there is much benefit to be gained by community projects. 'Youth clubs' and the like used to exist for young male and female adults. Also, support groups. But cut-backs...

I'm just glad I visited San Francisco in the 1980's, when it was colourful and charming, when we engaged in conversation or banter or at least commerce with many locals. — Vera Mont

Lucky you. Never been there but I imagined it as such.

I'm in one of several nearby communities where people still notice one another, hold elevators, smile at jokes in the checkout line and appreciate a compliment. — Vera Mont

Yes. Pretty much the same here. Today at the garden centre I smiled and thanked a man holding a door open for me. With the exaggerated bow and gesture of a gentleman. Eyes meeting in humour and recognition. Yup...

Your stories cheer me up. Thanks :flower:

The most convivial place I frequent is the quick sale rack at Food Basics. It's a magnet for old women and there is always some item of produce that one of us knows how to cook. I make a point of complimenting the attire of anyone of who has obviously gone to some trouble to present herself, and remark on the most striking tattoos of young women at the checkout. (I shun the automated one, as do many of my contemporaries, which is another subject for comment when the line is long.)
Another thing I've noticed is the young people working minimum wage jobs in the farm supply, hardware and department stores go out of their way to help an old lady. One cheerful fellow not only lifted the cat litter into my cart but came out to the parking lot to lift it into the trunk.
We're not completely oblivious of one another just yet.

A cat tunnel. Well, well, well. I think need the human version. Why should kittens have all the fun? — Amity

They make all sizes, for babies, dogs, small and large children and adults.

:ok:

Thanks, guys! :up: :flower:
I see this thread is heading fast towards the 10 page limit I set myself.
Probably best to give my brain a rest before the challenge of the December Writing Fest.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out. @Baden et al keeping us in suspense until the very last minute... :naughty:
I don't expect to submit anything but look forward to reading and giving some feedback :cool:

Baden et al keeping us in suspense until the very last minute... — Amity

I already posted the thread...

Oh, there it is! Thanks :up:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15585/literary-activity-winter-2024

:smile: :up: