• Brendan Golledge
    135
    Here are some thoughts I've had regarding religion, from a nonreligious point of view.

    Anything that's common must be good at existing in one way or another, or else it would not exist. So, since religion is common amongst humans, it must serve some beneficial purpose, or else people would either quit believing in it, or the believers would die out.

    In principle, anything that can imperfectly replicate itself ought to be subject to evolutionary pressures. Religions and cultures fit into this category, since they are imperfectly passed down from generation to generation. A religion in this sense can be thought of as something like an analogy to a biological species. One would expect that religious beliefs which have become common got that way because they were better at propagating themselves and at propagating their adherents. Examples of beneficial religious beliefs might be commands to treat one's neighbor kindly (to facilitate social cohesion) or to have many children (more children of believers means more believers). It would also make sense from this point of view that religions would tend to be intolerant, because tolerant religions would be more easily replaced and go extinct.

    I read a book once that argued that cows are holy in India because they are necessary for their traditional farming. During famines, the towns which killed and ate their cows would have more likely starved, because they would have been unable to continue farming after the famine. So, it is likely that whatever beliefs led the people to value their cows tended to propagate with time. The book gave many more examples of justifications for apparently strange religious beliefs, but I can't remember most of them.

    I believe in a state of nature, social organization would be limited to natural affections. People would stick to their friends and family. It seems likely to me that sharing a belief in something like a common sky father would allow larger social organization, since it would allow distantly related people to treat each other like brothers. It seems likely, actually, that legends about sky fathers may have originated in actual biological fathers from the distant past who for one reason or another were very successful, and whose descendants became very numerous with time. So, it may be that amongst humans, religious beliefs were a prerequisite to large social organization (such as nations or empires).

    Belief in a sky father would also allow abstract ethics to be grafted onto our social instincts. Most people cannot understand philosophy (imagine trying to raise a family based on the philosophy of Kant, Nietzsche, or Aristotle), but everybody can understand the concept of mother and father. Even little children can understand that. So, beliefs in the commands of a sky father could easily be propagated over the generations, if those beliefs were beneficial for the believers (such as by causing them to get into conflict less often by treating their neighbors better).

    I think a willingness to receive culture might be beneficial in part due to the fact that humans are mortal, and thus wisdom needs to be relearned every generation. A person who by nature was inclined to follow cultural norms would more likely adopt wise codes of conduct, without needing to go through the hard work of figuring it out for themselves.

    An example of a possible benefit from a social norm: For instance, it's taboo in our culture to eat other people. I reason, however, that if there were a famine, and I found a person who was already dead, then it would do no harm to any living person for me to cook at eat that dead person, but it would do me a great deal of good. However, a possible consequence of this, if other people saw me do it, would be that they might perhaps be worried that I might kill them and eat them too (not knowing that I had no intention of killing living people). Also, if my children saw me do that, they would likely think that eating people was a normal and good thing to do, and so might start a slippery slope of relaxing guidelines on when it was acceptable to eat another person. This might ruin their social lives, because it would be very hard to work with another person if you suspected that person might want to eat you. So, the taboo against eating people may have become widespread because holding that taboo makes social cohesion easier. But someone who simply adopts the taboo because they grew up with it gains all the benefits of that moral strategy without having to think through all the consequences themselves.

    I believe that religion is also how people model their own psychology (although I don't think they usually realize that they are doing this). For instance, the ancient Greeks seemed to believe that anger came from Ares, lust from Aphrodite, etc. So, the numerous gods in polytheism could be used to describe psychological phenomena that people actually experience, in the absence of a working theory on the unconscious. I also believe that the common morals in a culture are imbedded in their stories (I might even argue that a culture IS the common morality that people share). Thus, the beliefs that people have in gods may actually reflect their own psyche, rather than the objective existence of gods.

    As an example of gods describing people rather than vise versa, Christianity is the most common religion, and one of the things that Christians seem to talk about the most is that Jesus forgave them and loves them. So, from this, one might reason, that one of the deepest desires of the human heart is to be understood, loved, and accepted by the one at the top of the hierarchy, even if one doesn't feel worthy of it. That would explain why this belief became widespread.

    So, the particular beliefs in religions could be useful for the survival and reproduction of their adherents, or they simply could be psychologically pleasing. Both conversion and population growth are useful for the spread of ideas.

    One difference between polytheistic and monotheist religions is probably that monotheists tend of have a more unified view of the self (since the conception of god is typically a reflection of the view of the self). For a polytheist, the different gods are more or less on equal footing, so that doing the will of one might be similarly as valid as the will of another. They may thus be more morally open-minded, but also more disjointed as people. There may be a situation where there is a conflict between mercy, justice, and romance (or some other positive traits), and the polytheist (depending heavily on the details of his religion) may feel that there are multiple correct choices to the dilemma. But monotheism reflects psychological unity, in that the will of the one God is more correct than other wills. So, a monotheist may tend to more strongly believe that there has to be one correct solution to a moral problem, and may feel more conflicted by internal contradictions.

    However God actually exists, people seem to think of him as being whatever they themselves are able to understand to be the best and most important. So, God as a concept is typically a projection of one's own values. So, a secular interpretation of Jesus' command to love God with all one's heart, is that one ought to put first things first, and thus feel, think, and do whatever one is able to understand to be best. "Fear of the Lord" may be understood to mean that there exists an external reality which is bigger than not only one's own personal desires, but also bigger than the local social consensus, and one might be very badly hurt for ignoring it. Although for the religiously-minded, they do not distinguish between abstract ethics and a personal God, so that the moral meaning of passages such as these do not need interpretation.
  • Leontiskos
    3.2k
    I don't think this line is correct, but here is a short video which stays close to your OP:

  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    Anything that's common must be good at existing in one way or another, or else it would not exist. So, since religion is common amongst humans, it must serve some beneficial purpose, or else people would either quit believing in it, or the believers would die out.Brendan Golledge

    This is an instrumental argument because it evaluates the existence of religion solely in terms of its utility or function, implying that its widespread presence must correlate with some beneficial or survival-enhancing purpose. This form of reasoning is described by Adorno and Horkheimer's critique of instrumental reason, which they say reduces all values and phenomena to their utility within systems of domination, survival, or material function (ref). By presuming that religion's existence is justified only by its pragmatic usefulness, the argument neglects the possibility of other dimensions, such as religion's intrinsic, cultural, or existential significance, and mirrors the instrumental rationality of secular culture.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    religion's intrinsic, cultural, or existential significanceWayfarer
    Yes, magical thinking in performative forms of woo-of-the-gaps superstitions, immortality fantasies, folk/fairy tales, etc – no doubt the childhood of our species. :sparkle:
  • Cheshire
    1.1k
    However God actually exists, people seem to think of him as being whatever they themselves are able to understand to be the best and most important. So, God as a concept is typically a projection of one's own values. So, a secular interpretation of Jesus' command to love God with all one's heart, is that one ought to put first things first, and thus feel, think, and do whatever one is able to understand to be best. "Fear of the Lord" may be understood to mean that there exists an external reality which is bigger than not only one's own personal desires, but also bigger than the local social consensus, and one might be very badly hurt for ignoring it. Although for the religiously-minded, they do not distinguish between abstract ethics and a personal God, so that the moral meaning of passages such as these do not need interpretation.Brendan Golledge

    Pretty much the observation I've come to recognize. There's a distinct lack of disagreement between people and what their god would have them do. It seems like divine administration ought to run into more conflict with people unable to understand directives from a completely different point of view. Unless of course they're talking to themselves.

    That said, I think an emergent god might be an easier sell.
  • I like sushi
    4.9k
    So, since religion is common amongst humans, it must serve some beneficial purpose, or else people would either quit believing in it, or the believers would die out.Brendan Golledge

    It has propagated through time. There is nothing more to take away and certainly no indication that any evolutionary process (literally or as an analogy) is 'beneficial'.

    That aside, there are numerous issues with how you are framing the term 'religious' as a purely Abrahamic monolith. There are plenty of instances of religions that are far far less concerned with deities and some not at all. It is too easy to start in one's own back garden and assume it maps onto everyone else's back garden so easily (if they possess one at all!).

    One extremely common feature of religion is that they involve rituals and methods that actively induce altered states of consciousness. This is quite clearly prevalent and universal, with methodologies replicated all over the globe independently of each other.

    I have recently started reading Robin Dunbar's How Religion Evolved: And Why it Endures, I think it would be right up your street.

    One major feature of his ideas are attached to the Dunbar Number, which shows how prior to the occurrence of religious institutions populations of tribes would inevitably reach a maximum before dividing into smaller groups. His premise being that religions have allowed us to create a greater sense of community beyond our natural social capacities.

    He does touch on other areas too. Anyway, I would suggest taking a look if you can :)
  • Nils Loc
    1.4k
    So, the taboo against eating people may have become widespread because holding that taboo makes social cohesion easier.Brendan Golledge

    Eating people could also form a collectively sanctioned rite, permissible under strict adherence to the cultural form.The Fore tribe of Papua New Guinea are noted for suffering from prion disease (Kuru) from eating brains of their dead. It would be interesting to know whether the Fore would ever perform the ritual alone, outside of the social form, and whether that would be collectively deemed permissible. Or maybe we'd see it as comparable to not sharing a kind of rare meat, being excluded from a rare chance of honoring the dead, in egalitarian societies. Did everybody get a bit?

    Human sacrifice was also ubiquitous practice which one might consider as a universal taboo due its implications for 'tit for tat' social instability. However we may find many culturally permissible forms. This is just to draw up the distinction between publicly sanctioned acts which are performed as part of a social function which might otherwise be considered taboo outside of that.

    The Eucharist is a form of cannibalism, if the body and the blood of Christ is as an intelligible (trans)substance still classifiable as 'human'.
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    Anything that's common must be good at existing in one way or another, or else it would not exist. So, since religion is common amongst humans, it must serve some beneficial purpose, ...Brendan Golledge
    :roll: At best, sir, this premise does not make any sense (re: "common" therefore "beneficial"? like e.g. poor hygiene, bigotry, sex/child abuse, theft/fraud, bullshit/lies, ignorance, superstitions, scapegoating, conspiracy theories, war, poverty, etc) "Religion" is a cultural phenomenon, imo, symptomatic of human commons afflicted by both material scarcity & biological morbidity; my guess is 'post-scarcity¹, immorbid² persons' will not be in any recognizable (Bronze/Iron Age) sense "religious" (i.e. magical thinkers).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity [1]

    https://healthylongevitychallenge.org/the-quest-for-immorbidity-what-if-you-could-live-a-long-life-disease-free/ [2]
  • Brendan Golledge
    135
    Thanks for your replies, guys.

    It is true that from a purely naturalistic perspective, objective morals cannot be proven. In this vein, I was more interested in describing how religions came to be and how they work, than I was interested in trying to morally justify their existence.

    It is true that I look at things from the perspective of Abrahamic religions, but I don't think the main idea that religions can evolve is wrong if there are some religions that don't originate in the idea of sky father.

    It sounds like that Dunbar Number is consistent with my guess about the role of religion in forming larger societies. I don't think I had heard of him before, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that other smart people thought of ideas before I did.

    I guess the social cost of cannibalism is less if it takes place in very specific circumstances. I don't think the sacrifice of Jesus is like regular cannibalism in social cost because it is a unique circumstance that is not at all transferable to other people. Although, I have heard that the ancient Romans were grossed out by the practice.

    As for human sacrifice, we don't have it anymore, do we? One might consider this circumstantial evidence that the practice is not as adaptive as more modern cultural practices.

    I meant "beneficial" in the evolutionary sense, in that it aids with survival and reproduction. That's why I followed up with, " ...or else people would either quit believing in it, or the believers would die out." It was not a moral argument.

    (re: "common" therefore "beneficial"? like e.g. poor hygiene, bigotry, sex/child abuse, theft/fraud, bullshit/lies, ignorance, superstitions, scapegoating, conspiracy theories, war, poverty, etc)180 Proof

    I have opinions about why all those things happen, but fully addressing all of them would take a very long time. I will mention a couple things, however. "Ignorance" is the default state, so, it isn't something that needs to be actively maintained. Same for "poverty". "Bigotry" could be beneficial in the evolutionary sense if it harms rival groups more than the in-group. Theft and lies are beneficial for the individual for short-term material benefit, but these behaviors are contrary to the health of the social body, which is why we see the behavior in individuals, but the behaviors tends to be discouraged publicly. In short, one way or another, all these behaviors are good at existing, which is why we see them. Or, in the case of sexual or child abuse, perhaps these behaviors are unhealthy expressions of desires that can at other times be healthy (such as the desire to reproduce, or for social dominance).
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    I meant "beneficial" in the evolutionary senseBrendan Golledge
    There isn't any significant anthropological evidence of "religion" before ca. 50-80,000 years ago (i.e. before the Upper Paleolithic era)¹ in a period – the Lower Paleolithic era – when "evolutionary" pressures might have still been at work on (modern)² H. sapiens, so your notion of "beneficial", Brendan, does not make sense in this context. Evolution has nothing to do with it insofar as "religion" has only been operative – manifest – via cultural development for about the last 2% of the entire existence of the Homo genus (2.8 million years).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_religion [1]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity [2]
  • I like sushi
    4.9k
    It sounds like that Dunbar Number is consistent with my guess about the role of religion in forming larger societies. I don't think I had heard of him before, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that other smart people thought of ideas before I did.Brendan Golledge

    Honestly, it has been a common assumption for a long long time. The difference with Dunbar is he actually provides some form of hard evidence to back this theory up. Like practically anything, there is often more than one valid reason.

    I think the need for religion in the terms Dunbar relates it is no longer massively significant as we have reformed our sense of identity into other forms - patriotism being the most significant. There is also the effect of education and science on how people relate to each other too, which has undoubtedly led to people accepting different points of view more readily than before.

    It is true that I look at things from the perspective of Abrahamic religions, but I don't think the main idea that religions can evolve is wrong if there are some religions that don't originate in the idea of sky father.Brendan Golledge

    Of course. The title of Dunbar's book should make it blatantly obvious that this is a common query in the field. Some dispute it and other do not. Nothing new there either. Opinions and theories are held to more rigorously than others. Dunbar's evidence is by no means case closing.

    There is cognitive archaeology. Of course this is a rather loose field of study and extrapolating skull shapes to cognitive ability is a bit iffy to say the least (one reason I am a little dubious about some of the stretches Dunbar makes regarding language development).
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