• Gnomon
    3.8k
    The scientific cosmology of THEISM vs DEISM vs ACCIDENTALISM

    In his 2021 book, Return of the God Hypothesis, historian & geo-physicist Stephen Meyer makes a detailed case (science-based and non-scriptural) for Intelligent Design (ID) in evolution as opposed to Dumb Accidents (DA)*1. He's “comfortable with the standard evolutionary story, but with a theistic spin”(Wiki). So he is touting Christian Theism, but tolerantly admits that Agnostic Deism (intelligent but absentee design) also fits the evidence. In my view, the primary difference between Theistic Creation and Deistic Design is Teleological Evolution (front loaded with criteria set in the beginning) versus Divine Intervention (with a few miracles sprinkled into the process ; mostly done to validate prophets, but also to change social and weather patterns to annihilate unruly humans). Ignoring that proviso, his argument sets the philosophical Design *2 inference against the un-designed serendipity cosmology of Atheism.

    He even quotes a Catholic theologian who makes a deist-like argument in favor of Intelligent Design . Surprisingly, Denis Lamoureux uses the term "Evolutionary Creation" in contrast to the Genesis account of Instant Creation. He says "God organized the big bang so that the deck was stacked", and "lets it unfold deterministically" to produce life. That sounds more like a cosmic computer Programmer than the magical spoken-command creation of Genesis. Ironically, the theologian also says that "to invoke a specific instance of design after the initial creation would imply a violation of natural law by invoking the activity of a 'God of the gaps' ". Hence, he thinks pseudoscientific Intelligent Design arguments should be termed "interventionist Design Theory", implying that the supposedly omniscient creator had to make post-creation corrections after his seven day opus, divinely assessed as “good” and “very good” in Genesis.

    Meyer then argues against the theologian by asking "are laws creative?" Obviously, natural laws (regularities) alone would simply repeat the same patterns over & over. So he astutely concluded that "laws are the wrong kind of entity to generate the informational features of life" (e.g. DNA). However, fixed laws (criteria ; limits) plus fortuitous jostling (competition) would combine stability with variability to produce Natural Selection as postulated by Darwin. Conjecturally, randomness (e.g. energetic vibrations) shuffles the original “deck” (initial conditions) into novel combinations, then natural Laws (rules of the game), such as thermodynamics, would weed out the lawless (unfit) forms.

    For a more mundane example : in a dice game of Craps (pure chance), the little cubes sitting still would spell out a fixed number of dots, up to 12. But by shaking & rolling the dice (jostling), that static combination is randomized to display alternative numbers, and if you are lucky, "seven come eleven". Hence, if evolution works as Darwin observed --- by variation & competition --- then Luck or Chance or Probability plays a role in the Selection of viable (life-possible) forms of material objects*3. Moreover, Quantum Theory has found that statistical uncertainty (probability ) is essential to the fundamental functions of Nature. But Luck alone, sans organizing influences, is not a winning strategy, even given infinite rolls of the dice.

    For another instance of the role of regulated irregularity, design engineers originally programmed (initialized) their computers with specific criteria for limiting variables, in order to pre-define the output within a certain predictable range. But as the desired functions became more complex and unpredictable, they were forced to emulate Darwinian natural design. By that I mean their Evolutionary Programs*4 were set-up to use Trial & Error (stochastic*5) procedures to sift-out the "fittest" forms for whatever function the programmers intended : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna .

    In Nature, the laws are by definition stable & consistent, but some destabilizing force causes material forms to change over time, to evolve. And not just random change, but progressive evolution : e.g. from simple-minded ape to philosophical homo sapiens. Physical (causal) Energy alone is aimless, except to move toward the "heat death" of ultimate Entropy. But when combined with those specifying Natural Laws (motion, conservation, etc.) the tumbling dice of evolution may occasionally hit upon a lucky (fitness) number, which will allow them to move on to the next stage of the ecological game : Darwinian selection. Darwin's implicit invisible hand then uses the lawful selection criteria (embodied in the environment) to weed-out the unfit, choosing from the various or mutated options resulting from the “antecedent” randomizing stage.

    The vital element in the game of Life, though, is biological Information, as found in the form of complex chemical patterns (DNA). Hence, German bio-chemist Manfred Eigen concluded that "our task is to find an algorithm, a natural law, that leads to the origin of information". Yet, as Meyer noted, "the regularities we refer to as laws describe highly deterministic or predictable relationships between antecedent conditions and subsequent events". And, "potential information content mounts as improbabilities multiply". Subsequently, the probabilistic law of Entropy weeds out the impossible, allowing only the “fit” forms to pass the sieve. Thus, we know that matter can be transformed over time, as lawlike information is scrambled by competing forces to produce the lovely novelties --- formless Plasma to spiraling Galaxies, and colorless formless Amoeba to the rainbows of flittering-twittering Birds --- that science has discovered in Cosmology and Biology. [images below]

    Another kind of vital Information is found in the Initial Conditions (program inputs) of the Big Bang that somehow pointed ahead to the highly-processed current conditions of our blue dot in the darkness of the cosmos. In the 20th century, based on astronomical evidence and the Big Bang theory, cosmologists began to stumble upon surprising “coincidences”*6 in 26 fundamental Cosmic Constants (“tuned” pre-settings) that appeared to be essential to evolution of Life and Mind. Based on those parameters, the so-called Anthropic Principle*7 made the emergence of living & thinking creatures seem almost inevitable*8. [image below]

    The causal power of the Big Bang, and those law-like settings in initial conditions of the material world, along with the sifting mechanism of competitive selection, could be interpreted to imply that eventually something like genesis-seeking homo sapiens would evolve on a temperate planet without the necessity of remedial divine intervention. Yet Meyer still finds the miracle-working God of the Bible to be more plausible than the nature god (Logos) of Deism & Plato, and more feasible than the Fortuna (goddess of Chance) of Atheism. On the other hand, Anti-Theists seem to find the miracle of Design by Accident*9 (Creative Random Chance ) to be more believable than the notion of Platonic Logic & Intention programmed into the Initial Conditions. Perhaps more relevant to some on this forum, long prior to the 21st century evidences that Meyer analyzes --- Big Bang beginning, Abiotic theories, DNA Genetics, and Information Theory --- David Hume skeptically deconstructed the design arguments of his day*10. Which “hypothesis” do you find the best fit to explain the existence of the living & thinking creatures of the world as we know it today? :smile:

    PS 1 : Apologies for the length and complexity of this introductory post. This is not a formal academic or scientific book review, but merely an amateur philosophical commentary on one chapter : Inference to the Best Metaphysical Explanation. Other constructive comments are solicited. Ad hominems and Straw Men not welcome. [my bold in all quotes]

    PS 2 : For transparency, I must admit that I am skeptical of the mythical accounts (Genesis) of instant creation, and the notion of divine interventions in ongoing evolution, that are implicit in the typical Intelligent Design hypothesis. But Meyer's detailed critique of alternative pre-bang origin theories (Multiverse ; Inflation ; etc.) seem to be credible. To his credit, Meyer includes several chapters --- Conjectures and Refutations --- that respond reasonably & cogently to technical criticisms of his previous books by scientists & philosophers, including Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins. But he makes no attempt to justify the scriptural basis of on-going or dispensational Interventionist beliefs.

    Footnotes & Comments :

    *1. Accidentalism is a philosophical theory that some events occur without a cause, or that events can happen by chance or haphazardly. It's related to other theories such as indeterminism and tychism. ___Google AI overview

    *2. Design : from de- “out” + signature “to mark,” from signum “a mark, sign”.
    The word design refers to something that is or has been intentionally created by a thinking agent, and is sometimes used to refer to the inherent nature of something – its design.

    ___ Wikipedia

    *3. Viable statistics :According to current scientific understanding, the probability of life emerging on a planet with suitable conditions is considered to be relatively high, although the exact odds are difficult to quantify due to the complex nature of abiogenesis, but the early emergence of life on Earth suggests a fairly significant chance of life arising given the right environment and enough time; however, the probability of intelligent life evolving is considered much lower. ___Google AI overview
    Note --- Statistical Probability is not an accident, since it is predictable.
    "Statistical probability is not accidental" means that when a statistically significant result occurs, it is highly unlikely to be due to mere chance; it suggests a real phenomenon or pattern is likely at play, rather than just a random occurrence.”___Google AI overview

    *4. Evolutionary programming is one of the four major evolutionary algorithm paradigms. It is similar to genetic programming, but the structure of the program to be optimized is fixed, while its numerical parameters are allowed to evolve. ___Wikipedia

    *5. Stochastic design method : Stochastic design uses random variables and probability to simulate long-term sequences and account for uncertainty. The word "stochastic" means randomness. ___Google AI overview

    *6. Five coincidences that make existence possible :
    From a hot, dense, near-uniform initial state, stars, galaxies, and living planets emerged.
    https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/5-coincidences-make-existence-possible/

    *7. The anthropic principle is a methodological principle that states that the universe's parameters must allow for life to exist. It's also known as the observation selection effect.
    The anthropic principle is based on the idea that the universe's conditions are so delicate that life would not be possible if any of the
    natural constants were slightly different. It's often used in cosmology to test theories about the universe. ___Google AI overview
    Note --- Darwin's model for Natural Selection was intelligent farmers who bred domestic animals with the intention to improve certain features of the stock. But Who pre-selected the critical cosmological parameters, and for what purpose? “Nobody knows” is the Agnostic & Deist position. But Meyer implies, without specifying, that it was the Yaweh/Jehovah of Judeo-Christian scripture.

    *8. Emergence of Life Probability : According to current scientific understanding, the probability of life emerging on a planet with suitable conditions is considered to be relatively high, although the exact odds are difficult to quantify due to the complex nature of abiogenesis, but the early emergence of life on Earth suggests a fairly significant chance of life arising given the right environment and enough time; however, the probability of intelligent life evolving is considered much lower. ___Google AI overview

    *9. "Design by Accident" is a concept in design theory, primarily popularized by Alexandra Midal, which argues that significant design innovations and advancements often arise from unexpected sources, unintended consequences, or "accidents" rather than solely through deliberate, planned design processes; essentially challenging the traditional notion of design as a purely intentional and controlled activity, highlighting the role of serendipity and unforeseen developments in shaping design history and practice. ___Google AI overview
    Note --- Design by Accident is literally an oxymoron. Yet, we can't deny that randomness (accident ; chance) is an essential factor in Evolution. But without the Selection factor it only results in chaos.

    *10. In his Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, David Hume criticized contemporary attempts to support religious beliefs in a supernatural deity by inference from appearances of design in the makeup of the world, and then by analogy with human design of artifacts. Hume interpreted the notion of a rational step-by-step designing deity as illicitly humanizing the supernatural God of scripture. When such inferences are disallowed though, we are left with no reasonable answers to the philosophical quest for understanding of ultimate origins. Hence, Hume might advise us Principle Seekers to “shut-up and calculate”. Pragmatic scientists with here & now projects may be dissuaded by such logic, but theoretical scientists and questing philosophers cannot be so easily turned away from their whys of wisdom.
    https://iep.utm.edu/design-arguments-for-existence-of-god/


    PLASMA
    Mv32sjNKMis2SrhxUrPXQX-320-80.jpg

    GALAXY
    potw2114a.jpg

    AMOEBA
    wmgL4ax5vrV8tn4dBueP2e.jpg

    BIRDS
    801468794_eddc168c88_b.jpg

    ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE
    300px-Spacetime_dimensionality.svg.png
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    @Gnomon – An interesting summary of Stephen Meyer's polemical thesis; however, dress-up "Intelligent Design" any way – with any jargon – you wish, it is always both fallacious (re: argument from ignorance (i.e. god-of-the-gaps)) and scientistic pseudo-science (re: non-explanatory (i.e. "god did it" ), ergo experimentally untestable (i.e. does not make any unique predictions). Thus, he has not made a compelling case, or sound argument, against contemporary cosmological or evolutionary theories and/or in favor of (a) more testably explanatory model(s).

    Fwiw by contrast, here is the link to a short summery of particle physicist and philosopher Victor J. Stenger's God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist (2007) ...

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God:_The_Failed_Hypothesis
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    *1. Accidentalism is a philosophical theory that some events occur without a cause, or that events can happen by chance or haphazardly. It's related to other theories such as indeterminism and tychism. ___Google AI overviewGnomon

    An aside. One of the problems for me is the emotional ladenness of this kind of wording. 'Accident' is already contrived as unfortunate. 'Chance' and 'haphazard' also sound like they have a criticism built into the very wording. It's a way of wrapping it all up as 'meaningful' versus 'dumb luck'... Essentially a William Lane Craig move.

    The term "natural laws" also carries the implication of a lawmaker, illustrating how our choice of language can guide us toward specific conclusions and shape a realm of imaginative possibilities. Similarly, the word "design" implies the presence of a designer, though it might more accurately be described as something that 'appears' to exhibit design when viewed from a particular perspective.

    I'm not an academic in this field of cosmology, so I won't allow myself the luxury to speculate on things only a handful of experts can understand.

    It often feels to me that these kinds of arguments come from former devout Muslim or Christians who in the deconstruction of their faith need to salvage some notions of teleological purpose, but frame them in a scientific language to, perhaps, feel less embarrassed about the conclusion.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Luke Barnes refutes Victor Stenger.

    'The will not to believe is just as strong as the will to believe' ~ Prof Ian Stevenson.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    :up: :up:

    Luke Barnes refutes ...Wayfarer
    :sweat:
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    It often feels to me that these kinds of arguments come from former devout Muslim or Christians who in the deconstruction of their faith need to salvage some notions of teleological purpose, but frame them in a scientific language to, perhaps, feel less embarrassed about the conclusion.Tom Storm
    The Intelligent Design movement did originate as a response to the aggressive New Atheists in the late 20th century. And their ID arguments were directed mainly at believers who might be swayed by the authority of well-known scientists. But in the intervening years, think-tank organizations such as the Discovery Institute have recruited practicing scientists who can reconcile scientific "facts" with their religious beliefs. Stephen Meyer is one of those experts, and he is not in the least "embarassed" by his controversial conclusions.

    Consequently, they can go toe-to-toe and fact-to-fact with the New Atheists, without resorting to "thus saith the lord" assertions. So, I was impressed by Meyers' scientific acumen and his ability to construct plausible philosophical arguments from known scientific facts. However, he makes no attempt to convince the reader of any particular religious creed. Besides, I long ago concluded that the Christian Bible, which was the sole authority for my childhood religion, is not the revealed Word of God, but the tribal myths of priests. So, while I respect the book for its literary importance, I don't accept its jurisdiction in matters of scientific or historical fact.

    Nevertheless, I have independently reached the conclusion that the universe, as depicted by a broad array of scientific facts, shows signs of Teleological Evolution (e.g Anthropic principle). But I doubt that the Mind behind the design is the kind of God-king depicted in the Judeo-Christian scriptures. So, while I practice no religion, and remain Agnostic about the implicit designer/programmer, for my philosophical purposes I take Teleology seriously. I have even developed a science-based personal worldview that qualifies as an "-ism" (philosophical system).

    My personal "-ism" has been repeatedly attacked by the trolls on this forum, apparently because they feel the need to "salvage" their own "devout" Atheistic metaphysical beliefs. Hence, they typically resort to Ad Hominem and Straw Man arguments instead of scientific or philosophical reasoning. Yet, I posted this thread with the hope that such a hot topic can be discussed calmly and reasonably and philosophically. This assumes that few of us are experts in Physics or Biology or Cosmology. So, we need to remain humble enough to avoid haughty or supercilious attitudes.

    Therefore, the topic to be addressed is not Christianity or Islam or Jehovah or Allah, but the notion of trial & error Evolutionary Creation of the current cosmos over eons from law-like Initial Conditions as discovered by Astronomers, not Astrologers. It's a modern concept that was unknown to the writers of ancient scriptures. But 1500 years ago, Greek philosophers postulated the necessity for philosophical principles, such as Logos or First Cause, long prior to our modern notions of Initial Conditions or Big Bang beginning. Can we treat this hot topic, not as a hot potato, but as a legitimate philosophical conundrum? :smile:

  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    Can we treat this hot topic, not as a hot potato, but as a legitimate philosophical conundrum? :smile:Gnomon

    Variations of the teleological argument are amongst the most common arguments we hear, so I don't think anyone is saying it isn't a hot topic for many people.

    I have even developed a science-based personal worldview that qualifies as an "-ism" (philosophical system).Gnomon

    Why have you found it important to do this?
  • Gnomon
    3.8k
    I have even developed a science-based personal worldview that qualifies as an "-ism" (philosophical system). — Gnomon
    Why have you found it important to do this?
    Tom Storm
    I explain the whys & wherefores in great detail in the Enformationism thesis and blog. As the name implies, it is based on the expanding role of Information in 21st century science, and has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Yet, the Materialist worldview seems to focus mainly on Entropy, which promises to de-evolve inevitably toward cold dark heat death. That negative attitude is contrary to the positive outlook of some religions, which are viewed as mawkishly optimistic, and needs to be suppressed by any means necessary.

    However, my philosophical perspective centers on Energy (negentropy ; EnFormAction) as the causal & organizing force behind the progressive stages of evolution that modern science has discovered since the Big Bang creation event. The basic facts are well established, but the interpretation of those data points remains to be worked-out, not by pragmatic scientists, but by theoretical philosophers.

    Why is it important? Ask Plato and Aristotle why they produced non-religious theories that have influenced the world for 1500 years. Like them, I remain Agnostic about the pre-bang source of Natural Laws (Logos) and of cosmic causation (First Cause). I don't expect salvation from the Entropic Reaper. But I have nothing better to do with my retirement time than to dabble in Ontological & Epistemological philosophy. :smile:

    Enformationism :

    This website is a place to explore the meaning and ramifications of a new philosophical and scientific hypothesis that I have chosen to call Enformationism. The term spelled with an "I" had already been used elsewhere in various contexts and meanings, so I looked for an alternative name. Since the new scientific term Enformy was already in use, with a meaning similar to what I had in mind, I simply chose to change the spelling of my proposed coinage.

    This informal thesis does not present any new scientific evidence, or novel philosophical analysis. It merely suggests a new perspective on an old enigma : what is reality? The so-called “Information Age” that began in the 20th century, has now come of age in the 21st century. So I have turned to the cutting-edge Information Sciences in an attempt to formulate my own personal answer to the perennial puzzles of Ontology, the science of Existence.

    I am neither a scientist, nor a philosopher, so the arguments herein carry no more authority or expertise than those of anyone else with an interest in such impractical musings. This is intended to be an open-ended thread, because it’s a relatively new and unproven concept, and because the ideas presented here are merely a superficial snapshot of what promises to be a whole new way of understanding the world : philosophically, scientifically, and religiously.

    https://enformationism.info/enformationism.info/page2%20Welcome.html
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    Well I ask mainly because I am interested in why people think certain ways. Some people are theorists and system builders by inclination and see philosophy as an enterprise to build Truth. I think of it more as a series of systems people identify with for various reasons often, it seems to me, these are dispositional and aesthetic, with post hoc reasoning bolted on afterwards.

    Yet, the Atheist worldview seems to focus mainly on Entropy, which promises to de-evolve inevitably toward cold dark heat death.Gnomon

    There is no atheist worldview. This is a talking point from William Lane Craig.

    Atheism is simply about whether or not you belvie a god exists. Some atheists I know are into theosophy, mysticism, magic, astrology, etc.

    I think the group you are thinking of are a particular crew of scientistic secular humanists. Those who feel that they must have an alternative physicalist cosmology to the ones provided by mythologies.

    Why is it important? Ask Plato and Aristotle why they produced non-religious theories that have influenced the world for 1500 years. Like them, I remain Agnostic about the pre-bang source of Natural Laws (Logos) and of cosmic causation (First Cause). But I have nothing better to do with my retirement time than to dabble in Ontological & Epistemological philosophyGnomon

    I'm more interested in the emotional need such cosmology satisfies. It seems to me that some people need answers to certain quesions, others don't. I often wonder why that is.

    Does the argument from contingency interest you too?
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    It's a pretty carefully put-together OP, but on an unpopular topic.

    The first forum I signed up to was on Richard Dawkins website, around 2008, which played host to many of these debates. Hilariously vituperative. Some of the representative atheists' views were hostile to the point of hysteria.

    Then there was a labyrinthine thread that ran for years across various forums (although not this one or its predecesor) by one Perry Marshall, who is a software executive that also has an interest in the argument from biological information. His main argument is simply that DNA is a code, not a pattern, and that there are no instances in nature of spontaneously-occuring codes, ergo it implies an intelligent act. Those debates brought in many references to a book by Hubert Yockey, who studied the application of information theory to biology. I looked at a copy in a library, but it really takes postgrad level biology and information science to understand. Suffice to note that whilst Yockey strongly rejected any attempt by ID to enlist him, but he also said that the question of the origin of DNA was an undecideable question in the formal sense. Which could be taken as 'scientific support for agnositicsm'.

    I must admit that I am skeptical of the mythical accounts (Genesis) of instant creationGnomon

    Those accounts are plainly mythological in origin. There are two creation myths in Genesis. There are inumerable creation mythologies in sorrounding Semitic and other ancient cultures. I think attempts to justify any such myths from a scientific perspective are wildly misplaced. But then, for those who never thought that they were intended as literal accounts, the fact that they're *not* literal accounts doesn't have nearly the signficance that the Dawkins of this world seem to want to attribute to it.

    And what does 'instantaneous' mean? Like the sudden appearance of the entire Universe from an infinitely minute and dense singularity? (Mind you, Georges LeMaitre, who came up with the 'big bang' cosmology, strenuously objected to the comparison, wanting to keep the religious and scientific accounts separate. )

    I think a philosophical point behind many of these arguments is the question of whether and in what sense science accounts for scientific laws. The way popular atheism often frames it, science can account for or explain the order of nature with reference to scientific laws. But the nature of scientific laws is not itself a scientific question, but a metaphysical one. We don't know why the regularities of nature are such that they can give rise to complex matter, as distinct from hot plasma or simple chaos. But I question whether that is a scientifically adjuticable matter, but again, at best that justifies agnosticism (a term, let's not forget, that was coined by Thomas Henry Huxley, 'Darwin's Bulldog', about just these questions. And it's also interesting to note that he deplored atheism as much as creationism.)
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    It seems to me that some people need answers to certain quesions, others don't. I often wonder why that is.Tom Storm
    Perhaps some emotionally need certitude, or an illusion of knowledge (i.e. severe allergy to admitting what (that) they don't know (e.g. woo-of-the-gaps)), whereas others do not have such an acute anxiety and even thrive from exploring intractable unknowns, indicative by their willingness to say "I/we don't know". The latter seems to me (I don't mean to stereotype / caricature) an artistic-philosophical-scientific disposition and the former more magical-mythic/cultic-mystical than not.

    an alternative physicalist cosmology to the ones provided by mythologies
    :up: e.g. Thales and the other Milesian as well as Ionian & atomist Pre-Socratics ...
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    severe allergy180 Proof

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