At this point, considering that you haven't been able to defend your position and have pleaded ignorance and a desire to take your time in coming to a decision, I think it apt to point out that you are just talking about your opinion -- your unjustified belief. — Moliere
Probably for similar reasons that you seem to want to draw the line further back -- because you have to draw the line somewhere, and birth is safely before we are dealing with a human in the sense you mean the word, and it is directly after a significant event. — Moliere
Not by my reasoning. — Moliere
The fetus doesn't have anything at all. — Moliere
There is no separation between the fetus and the mother. — Moliere
So it is strange to treat the fetus as if it is a human just waiting inside the mother. — Moliere
The fetus is more like an organ than a human. — Moliere
I did say that this is an analogy when I introduced the comparison. They are obviously not identical. — Moliere
This looks like a perverse reduction of childbirth to a mechanistic process, ignoring its human significance. Clearly, birth and separation are part of the same event (or process if you prefer). It's an event in which a new person is initiated into the human world, into society. This is what matters to morality, not any mechanical stipulations or biological facts.It is at that stage. It's more odd to treat the vagina or umbilical cord as if they have the power to grant humanness. I'm not sure which one you think it is, since you've inconsistently switched between birth (which happens by passing through the vagina) and separation (which happens by cutting the umbilical cord). — Sapientia
Your reasoning is in conflict with scientific literature. — Sapientia
So it is strange to treat the fetus as if it is a human just waiting inside the mother. — Moliere
How do ordinary people not versed in the fine points of philosophy actually treat their own (and others') fetuses? — Bitter Crank
Birth is the centrally important, ultimate event of a pregnancy, the moment when a person comes to be, or begins to be, and the moment the mother's months of bodily change, discomfort, and anticipation have all been leading up to. — jamalrob
At the other end of a life, the loss of a functioning brain (brain death or profound irreversible coma) is the end of personhood. — Bitter Crank
They also seek out and obtain abortions.
If the actions of ordinary people justify our beliefs, then it would seem to me that both your belief and my belief are justifiable. — Moliere
Yes, they do seek abortions. And I endorse the legitimacy of people aborting fetuses before the third trimester. Our difference seems to be limited to abortion during the last trimester, and the difference the third trimester makes in this decision. — Bitter Crank
It's the judgmentalism of the conservative who worries about the permissive society and the irresponsible behaviour of loose women. — jamalrob
Oh ffs. The fetus has its own DNA along with a separate brain, nervous and immune system. And there is a specific barrier called the placental membrane separating fetal blood from the mother's blood and their immune systems from each other so the mother's immune defences don't attack and reject the fetus. No bodily organ has different DNA and a different immune system to its host. I can't believe I have to actually point this out. I mean, if you are so totally ignorant of the basic biology of a pregnant woman, then you are in no position to give an opinion on what is and is not part of her body, or to offer any meaningful view on what the implications are.The fetus doesn't have anything at all. There is no separation between the fetus and the mother. So it is strange to treat the fetus as if it is a human just waiting inside the mother. — Moliere
"From an immunologic point of view, the fetus is an alien....And your body is programmed to mount an assault on foreigners." — Dr. Randi Epstein
More silliness. Do you seriously believe @Moliere and I don't know all that already? There's little point in our debating a rabid fanatic. Calm down and treat your interlocutors with some respect or else go away. We're not taking the piss; we really do believe what we're saying.[DNA, immunology, etc.]
So can we now drop this utter nonsense that the fetus is just part of the woman's body. — Baden
And I see no reason, then, to not consider the fetus as a part of the mother -- considering that that there is a continuation between the two — Moliere
which is no better than begging the question, — Moliere
More silliness. Do you seriously believe Moliere and I don't know all that already? There's little point in our debating a rabid fanatic. Calm down and treat your interlocutors with some respect or else go away. We're not taking the piss; we really do believe what we're saying. — jamalrob
What you described is really basic stuff. It would help you understand our case--if you actually want to--if you assume we know stuff like that and try to interpret our positions in a better light. If you don't know how to apply the principle of charity you shouldn't be here.Moliere didn't know it as far as I can see. — Baden
You mentioned the position that the fetus is part of the woman's body, which I claimed and which you responded to. I'm part of that debate.You weren't mentioned.
But that's not what I said. This is simple intellectual dishonesty. I could quote the examples of fanaticism from your posts, but you know exactly what they are so I won't bother. You're not in this for the debate, but because you are raging.The idea that my position represents that of a rabid fanatic because I'm presenting the science is ludicrous.
But I said you should go away if you don't treat your interlocutors with some respect, not if you get passionate.And telling me to go away is pathetic. You are not immune to being passionate in your arguments either as is evident from this post.
Can't you see the circularity here?
"I see no reason...not to consider the fetus as part of the mother [because] there is a continuation between the two" (i.e. the fetus is part of the mother). Whether or not there is a continuation is the issue under debate. There is a connection obviously through the umbilical cord and across the placental barrier. I've just demonstrated why this is not a bodily continuation because an organism that does not contain your DNA and has a full set of organs of its own and is (in the case of late fetuses) viable on its own is not your body. On your side you have no argument at all. All you are saying is it's part of her body because it's in her body. — Baden
Moliere didn't know it as far as I can see. — Baden
But I said you should go away if you don't treat your interlocutors with some respect, not if you get passionate. — jamalrob
Catholics feel the same way. — Moliere
What it comes down to is that your attitude is pissing me off. You keep wanting to draw a line under things, to say things are settled. You are plainly annoyed that people with views you don't like persist in holding them. That's why I'm attacking you, not because you're passionate. — jamalrob
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