• Fooloso4
    6.2k
    The Timaeus begins with Socrates’ desire to see the city he creates in the Republic at war. He wants to see the city in action. The story of the city in the Republic is incomplete. It is a city created by intellect without necessity, that is, a city without chance and contingency. A city that could never be.

    The fixed intelligible world, the world of Forms, is not the whole of the story. The Forms are part of a whole that is indeterminate, a whole in which there is contingency and chance. Sensible things are not as they are simply because they are likenesses of Forms. They are as they are because of the random actions they are involved with in the chora. By being shaken the chora both acts on and is acted on by what is in it.


    Timaeus introduces the divine craftsman he calls “poet and father'' of all that comes to be. (28c [correction])

    He does not attempt to demonstrate or prove or defend the existence of the craftsman. We are led to ask how Timaeus knows of him. The suspicion is that Timaeus is the craftsman, the poet and father, of the divine craftsman.

    It is one of the many likely stories (ton eikota mython) he tells:

    So then, Socrates, if, in saying many things on many topics concerning gods and the birth of the all, we prove to be incapable of rendering speeches that are always and in all respects in agreement with themselves and drawn with precision, don’t be surprised. But if we provide likelihoods inferior to none, we should be well-pleased with them, remembering that I who speak as well as you my judges have a human nature, so that it’s fitting for us to be receptive to the likely story about these things and not search further for anything beyond it. (29c-d).

    His imprecision is seen here as well:

    As for all the heaven (or cosmos, or whatever else it might be most receptive to being called, let us call it that) … (28b).

    Why not be more precise? Isn’t it imperative to be precise in matters of metaphysics and cosmogony?

    We are human beings, capable of telling likely stories, but incapable of discerning the truth of such things. In line with the dialogues theme of what is best, Timaeus proposes it is best to accept likely stories and not search for what is beyond the limits of our understanding.

    Socrates approves and urges him to perform the song (nomos). Nomos means not only song but law and custom or convention. In the absence of truth there is nomos. But not just any song, it is one that is regarded as best to accept because it is told with an eye to what is best. One that harmonizes being and becoming.
    Timaeus identifies two kinds of cause, intelligence and necessity, nous and ananke. Necessity covers such things as physical processes, contingency, chance, motion, power, and the chora. What is by necessity is without nous or intellect. It is called the “wandering cause” (48a). It can act contrary to nous. The sensible world, the world of becoming, is neither regulated by intellect nor fully intelligible.

    In addition to Forms and sensible things, Timaeus introduces a “third kind” (triton genos, 48e), the chora (χώρα).

    The three kinds are:

    … that which comes to be, that in which it comes to be, and that from which what comes to be sprouts as something copied. And what’s more, it’s fitting to liken the receiver to a mother , the ‘from which’ to a father, and the nature between these to an offspring (50d).

    Like intelligible things, the chora always is. But unlike intelligible things, it is changeable. (52a) Unlike sensible things it does not perish. Befitting its indeterminacy, the chora does not yield to simple definition.

    It is said to be the seat of all that has birth. (52b)

    He calls it:

    … a receptacle for all becoming, a sort of wet nurse.

    The chora does not take the shape of anything it receives but is:

    … both moved and thoroughly configured by whatever things come into it; and because of these, it appears different at different times ... (50c)

    And because she is filled with powers neither similar nor equally balanced, but rather as she sways irregularly in every direction, she herself is shaken by those kinds and, being moved, are always swept along this way and that and are dispersed - just like the particles shaken and winnowed out by sieves and other instruments used for purifying grain … ( 52e)

    The chora is not itself active, but due to what is active within it, it moves and thus contributes to the movement of what is in it. Like a sieve, it is not active but by being acted on it acts on what is in it.

    The chora, to the extent it is understood, is grasped by:

    … some bastard reasoning with the aid of insensibility, hardly to be trusted, the very thing we look to when we dream and affirm that it’s somehow necessary for everything that is to be in some region [topos] and occupy some space [chora] and that what is neither on earth nor somewhere in heaven is nothing (52b-c).

    To be clear, it is not that the chora is posited as the result of bastard reasoning. It is the attempt to understand it that relies on bastard reasoning. We cannot understand the chora itself. We rely on images of space and place. In dreams we mistake images for their originals (Republic 476c), but the chora is not some thing with its own properties and identity. Reasoning about it cannot make use of the image/original distinction. It is indeterminate and something thought of only in terms of images.
    The image of chora as mother and the father as that “from which” the offspring come raises the problem of paternity. Both the divine craftsman and the Forms have been identified as the father of what comes to be.

    In this likely story the offspring are the sensible beings. Any inquiry into the beginning cannot start at the beginning. Timaeus’ likely story, like all such stories, is not to be trusted. It is imprecise and contradictory, just as he said it would be. It is the work of a human craftsman . The beginning remains inaccessible to us. Perhaps what Plato is suggesting is that the offspring of origin stories, including those found in Plato’s dialogues, are the result of bastard reasoning and illegitimate.

    A central concern for Timaeus is the beginning of all things (48c):

    But by safeguarding what we declared at the very beginning - the power of likely accounts - I’ll attempt to give an account not less likely but more so and to speak, as before from the beginning about things individually and together as a whole. (48d)

    Timaeus begins with a likely account of the beginning, which is to say, not at the beginning, but with where he is able to begin. The inability to identify the true father, the origin, the beginning, leads to bastard reasoning. Our reasoning is on the basis of likeness in the double sense of sensible things being a likeness without ever having what belongs to that which it is a likeness of (52c) and, a likeness in the sense of being likely or like what it is without being what it is that it is like. And, of course, without access to the original we cannot say just how likely the story is to be true.

    In a dream we fail to distinguish between things and images. We should not mistake our images of the chora for the chora itself. It is not something sensed but it is not an intelligible either. It is a third kind, one that cannot be fully explicated. One that points to the mystery and indeterminacy of what is at play in the world.

    The image of the city at war is an image of a place or space, a chora, in which there is both intelligible order and chance, harmony and disharmony. Where things stand both together and in opposition.

    Forms and Chora are an indeterminate dyad. Together they order all that comes to be through intellect and necessity, that is, according to paradigm and chance, order and disorder, determinacy and indeterminacy.

    For more on the indeterminate dyad: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11903/platos-metaphysics/p1
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k
    Timaeus introduces the divine craftsman he calls “poet and father'' of all that comes to be. (28e)

    He does not attempt to demonstrate or prove or defend the existence of the craftsman. We are led to ask how Timaeus knows of him. The suspicion is that Timaeus is the craftsman, the poet and father, of the divine craftsman.
    Fooloso4

    Interesting post.

    A few questions though:

    Where did you find “Timaeus 28e”?

    Is this from any particular translation, or your own?

    From what I understand, Timaeus is a literary figure. If there is any "suspicion" or doubt regarding the authorship of the story, should it not be put to rest by the fact that Plato is the author of the dialogue?
  • hanaH
    195
    So then, Socrates, if, in saying many things on many topics concerning gods and the birth of the all, we prove to be incapable of rendering speeches that are always and in all respects in agreement with themselves and drawn with precision, don’t be surprised. But if we provide likelihoods inferior to none, we should be well-pleased with them, remembering that I who speak as well as you my judges have a human nature, so that it’s fitting for us to be receptive to the likely story about these things and not search further for anything beyond it. (29c-d).

    His imprecision is seen here as well:

    As for all the heaven (or cosmos, or whatever else it might be most receptive to being called, let us call it that) … (28b).

    Why not be more precise? Isn’t it imperative to be precise in matters of metaphysics and cosmogony?

    We are human beings, capable of telling likely stories, but incapable of discerning the truth of such things. In line with the dialogues theme of what is best, Timaeus proposes it is best to accept likely stories and not search for what is beyond the limits of our understanding.
    Fooloso4

    :up:

    Cool post.
  • Apollodorus
    3.4k


    OK, so you corrected the "28e" bit.

    However, I can’t find a single English translation that has “poet”. All of them have “maker”:

    Lamb’s translation says:

    And that which has come into existence must necessarily, as we say, have come into existence by reason of some Cause. Now to discover the Maker and Father of this Universe were a task indeed; and having discovered Him, to declare Him unto all men were a thing impossible (Timaeus 28c).

    The primary meaning of poietes is “maker” from poieo, “to make”.

    Greek-English lexicons like Liddle & Scott explicitly give Plato’s Republic 597d and Timaeus 28c as examples:

    ποιητής
    A maker, μηχανημάτων Id.Cyr.1.6.38; κλίνης Pl.R.597d; τὸν π. καὶ πατέρα τοῦδε τοῦ παντός Id.Ti.28c

    https://lsj.gr/wiki/ποιητής

    A poietes is someone who makes things, for example, a maker of furniture, a law-maker, a speech-maker, etc. and by extension, as a secondary meaning, a verse-maker or poet.

    In the context of Timaeus 28c it cannot mean anything other than Maker. At 76c it says:

    Making use, then, of the causes mentioned our Maker (poion) fashioned the head shaggy with hair … (Tim. 76c)

    Conceivably, the Creator-God could create the Universe through poetry if he so desired. But this is NOT what he is doing.

    Clearly, we cannot substitute “poet” for “maker” in this context. The Creator is described as a craftsman and architect, hence “demiurge”, not as a “poet”. It doesn’t make sense to say “the Poet of the Universe” when no “poetic” activity is involved in the process described.

    If you insert concepts into the text that are not there and then construct arguments based on them, then I think you should inform us that this is what you are doing.
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k


    Metaphysics for Plato was speculative and contemplative play, a form of poiesis, the making of images of the whole and parts. Without knowledge of beginnings that are forever lost to us he is saying that we cannot take any of this too seriously as true accounts. But that is not to say that we should not take such play seriously.

    The question of whether we live in a beautiful, well-ordered cosmos is a serious and important question, one that is challenged in the Timaeus. We cannot provide a definitive answer to this question, but how we choose to answer is important.

    It may appear as though the Timaeus is a departure for Plato, but it is consistent with Socratic skepticism. An indeterminate world, one where chance and contingency play a role, is a world that cannot be known. An indeterminate world of chance and contingency is one where the unknowable, the mystical dimension of life, is not flattened and destroyed.
  • hanaH
    195

    Excellent post. Thanks for the reply.
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k
    It is often assumed that Plato presents a dualist account consisting of Forms and sensible things, with Forms being the eternal truth and sensible things their imperfect image. It is this account that Plato himself calls into question.

    In the Phaedo Socrates calls the hypothesis of Forms “safe and ignorant” (105c). In addition to the Forms, he later recognizes the necessity of admitting physical causes such as fire and fever (105c).

    In what he calls his “second sailing” he investigates the “truth of beings” by means of accounts. The Forms are said to be hypothetical and the beings are not the Forms but the sensible things, to be navigated by means of the hypothetical Forms (99d-100a).

    As to the causal relationship between Forms and sensible things, he says:

    I simply, naively and perhaps foolishly cling to this, that nothing else makes it beautiful other than the presence of, or the sharing in, or however you may describe its relationship to that Beautiful we mentioned, for I will not insist on the precise nature of the relationship, but that all beautiful things are beautiful by the Beautiful. (100e)

    Plato is well aware of what is known as the participation problem, but offers no solution to it. The precise nature of the relationship is not something he is able to articulate. If the relationship between Forms and things remains in question then the hypothesis of Forms remains questionable.
    In the Philebus Plato introduces what Aristotle refers to as the indeterminate dyad, the limited (peras) and unlimited (apieron). Contrary to the fixed, unchanging nature of the Forms, indeterminacy is an ineliminable element of Plato’s metaphysics.

    As Jacob Klein puts it:

    each element of an indeterminate dyad is one, but both are two.

    They are not simply two because there is one and one, but because each is together with its other, thus both are two in a double sense

    Each element of the dyad stands together with and apart from the other. There is not one without the other.
    The Forms are each said to be one, but the Forms and things of that Form are an indeterminate dyad, one and indeterminate many.

    Consequently, even if knowledge of the Forms is possible it cannot give us knowledge of the sensible world.
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    It may appear as though the Timaeus is a departure for Plato, but it is consistent with Socratic skepticism. An indeterminate world, one where chance and contingency play a role, is a world that cannot be known. An indeterminate world of chance and contingency is one where the unknowable, the mystical dimension of life, is not flattened and destroyed.Fooloso4

    Consequently, even if knowledge of the Forms is possible it cannot give us knowledge of the sensible world.Fooloso4

    So it sounds like Plato had the sceptic and mystic elements in his thoughts on the world, human life and the gods.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.9k
    It's seems worth noting that chora/khôra conventionally means "space," since I didn't see the non-technical translation here.

    This is maybe a bit more helpful with an idea of how the Greeks of the period conceptualized space, and their distinction between magnitude and multitude in mathematics, but that's a bit of a digression, and we have to reconstruct such a view through Aristotle and his quotations anyhow.

    A helpful comparison to a more discussed concept occurs in Book IV of Aristotle's "Physics."

    This is why Plato in the Timaeus says that matter and space are the same; for the 'participant' and space are identical. (It is true, indeed, that the account he gives there of the 'participant' is different from what he says in his so-called 'unwritten teaching'. Nevertheless, he did identify place and space.) I mention Plato because, while all hold place to be something, he alone tried to say what it is.*

    Matter for Aristotle is potentiality, and prime matter (nothing but matter) is sheer indeterminate potency. Matter is what "stays the same" when things change. For example, it helps to resolve Plato's Meno Paradox because we can explain that we know things potentially before we know them actually.

    Prime matter never exists without form. If a thing is any thing at all it has some form/eidos. So, similarly for Aristotle, the approach to "knowing of it" is indirect.

    Anyhow, an interesting comparison in approach here is Plotinus. Plotinus wants to extend Plato, but he doesn't pick up on the approach here (i.e., stories within stories). But neither can the approach be direct. Rather, it relies on affirmation and negation, saying something (normally of the One) and then denying it in any normal terms (this is arguably more confusing than Plato, and it makes it impossible to cite short passages decisively). This also plays off Aristotle's use of analogy, and some of his other work, although it also offers stark corrections, implying a sort of dunamis in God (as opposed to Aristotle's "pure act"), but then this dunamis isn't the same as Aristotle's and often gets rendered as "power" instead of "potency/potentiality."

    Anyhow, what I think is interesting and informative for these later developments that relate to the OP involves questions of both method and theory.

    In terms of method, there is the idea that these questions cannot be tackled head on. The author of the Seventh Letter (presumably Plato) speaks to this difficulty directly and "talks shop" about trying to teach such things. Aristotle appears to differ from Plato in some key respects, often drawing a distinction between "the Platonists''' position and his own, but the methodological difficulties remain. Later inheritors of both the Platonic and Aristotlean tradition would try to develop this a bit. For example, St. Thomas draws on Aristotle and Boethius to make the case that natural philosophy (what we often call science), mathematics, and metaphysics each involve different acts of the mind. In the commentary on Boethius' De Trinitate he will claim that metaphysics involves an act of "separation" that entails separating things that in reality can never be distinct, and matter/indeterminate space would be one of the things approached in such a way.

    However, Plato's technique of images would remain popular. We might consider as examples St. Bonaventure's series of images in Itinerarium Mentis in Deum, or Dante's implementation of philosophy in images in the Divine Comedy.

    Theory wise, the one development I wanted to point out lies in Eriugena, "who distinguishes “nothing through privation” (nihil per privationem), and “nothing on account of excellence” (nihil per excellentiam). Basically, is something nothing on account of total absence or lack, or nothing because it contains everything and so is indeterminate as any one thing? The metaphor I like here is a sound wave. We might imagine the total absence of sound in a classical vacuum. But then we can also consider a sound wave of infinite amplitude and frequency. As the waves get ever closer together, approaching infinite frequency, the peaks and troughs cancel each other out, resulting in silence. But this is a pregnant silence (a womb), one that can actualize any possible sound through substraction, not addition. Yet such a substraction requires something else—the "father"—and this sort of difficulty shows up in a lot of thought, for instance, Plotinus' desire to affirm freedom for the One but not multiplicity or a composite nature.



    *Notably, Aristotle often refers to "the Platonists," but here refers to "Plato." Although, this could simply be due to the fact that he is quoting a specific work.
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k
    So it sounds like Plato had the sceptic and mystic elements in his thoughts on the world, human life and the gods.Corvus

    The term'mystic' has been used to mean what is beyond our knowledge and understanding and also to mean what the mystic knows through transcendent experience,. I think Plato points to the former and provides a myth about the latter.
  • Fooloso4
    6.2k


    What first struck me when I began reading the Timaeus is how odd it all seemed. Not the least of which is Socrates uncharacteristic silence throughout most of the dialogue. When at the beginning he says that in his opinion Timaeus has reached the very peak of all philosophy (20a) is he being sincere or ironic?

    When Timaeus says:

    So then, Socrates, if, in saying many things on many topics concerning gods and the birth of the all, we prove to be incapable of rendering speeches that are always and in all respects in agreement with themselves and drawn with precision, don’t be surprised. But if we provide likelihoods inferior to none, we should be well-pleased with them, remembering that I who speak as well as you my judges have a human nature, so that it’s fitting for us to be receptive to the likely story about these things and not search further for anything beyond it.

    ... it’s fitting for us to be receptive to the likely story about these things and not search further for anything beyond it.
    (29c-d).

    Socrates responds:

    Excellent Timaeus! And it must be received entirely as you urge.
    (29d)

    Why must likely but contradictory stories concerning the gods and the birth of the all be accepted? How many different likely stories should be accepted? This one is inferior to none, but that does not mean it is superior to all others.

    Since the chora, this third kind in addition to Forms and sensible things, is graspable by some bastard reasoning with the aid of insensibility, as in a dream, and is hardly to be trusted, is it reasonable to treat it reasonably in the same way we do Forms and sensible things?

    The "chora itself" is not like a Form or a thing itself. It is like something to be looked to as in a dream, but it is not like the images of things seen in a dream. In attempting to reason about it we cannot make use of the image/original distinction.
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    This is why Plato in the Timaeus says that matter and space are the same; for the 'participant' and space are identical. (It is true, indeed, that the account he gives there of the 'participant' is different from what he says in his so-called 'unwritten teaching'. Nevertheless, he did identify place and space.) I mention Plato because, while all hold place to be something, he alone tried to say what it is.*Count Timothy von Icarus

    An interesting point. But I am not sure if matter and space are the same. Matter can only exist in space. And mind can only exist in the biological body. Mind cannot exist in another mind. Human body cannot exist in another human body. Mind and body are totally different entity. Then matter and space must be different entity. If X exists in Y, then X and Y must be independent entities or existences.

    Matter has mass and weight. Space doesn't seem to have them. So how can they be the same? Would you agree Aristotle was wrong on his claim in his Physics?
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    The term'mystic' has been used to mean what is beyond our knowledge and understanding and also to mean what the mystic knows through transcendent experience,. I think Plato points to the former and provides a myth about the latter.Fooloso4

    ChatGPT seems to suggest that Kant, Hegel and Schopenhauer were all inspired by Plato's theory of Forms and mysticism in their philosophical systems. For instance could Kant's Thing-in-itself and the transcendental philosophy be reflecting Plato's Form in some sense?
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.9k


    Well, Aristotle's notion of matter is much different from modern physics, and is perhaps more usefully likened to energy.

    But, the "void," space, does seem to "weigh." Frank Wilzek's "The Lightness of Being," is a really great book on the properties of "empty space," and he makes the argument that theories of aether might be usefully employed for understanding this "metric field."

    It also has one of the more accessible introductions to quantum chromodynamics I've seen.
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    Well, Aristotle's notion of matter is much different from modern physics, and is perhaps more usefully likened to energy.Count Timothy von Icarus
    Energy is from the motions or changes of matter e.g. flying baseball carries energy to break window when it hit the window, heat generates from burning woods etc. Matter has potential for being energy suppose.

    But, the "void," space, does seem to "weigh."Count Timothy von Icarus
    I googled for how to weigh void or space, but they just listed weighing mass in space, rather than weighing the space itself. How do you weigh space? :)

    Frank Wilzek's "The Lightness of Being," is a really great book on the properties of "empty space," and he makes the argument that theories of aether might be usefully employed for understanding this "metric field."Count Timothy von Icarus
    Thanks for the info on the book. Will try to get the book.
  • Paine
    2.5k
    Since the topic of Aristotle has come up, I will quote selectively from a post of mine in another thread.

    First, there is the passage from Timaeus that is being considered:

    Clearly we should now begin again, once we have called upon the god, our saviour, at the very outset of our deliberations to see us safely out of an unusual and unaccustomed exposition, to the doctrine of things probable. In any case, our fresh start concerning the universe should be more elaborate than before, for we distinguished two entities then, but now we must present a third factor. Two were sufficient for our previous descriptions, one designated as a sort of a model discernible by Nous and ever the same, while the second was a copy of the model involved in becoming and visible. We did not distinguish a third entity at the time as we thought it enough to have these two, but now the argument seems to compel us to try to manifest a difficult and obscure form in words. What should we understand its capacity and nature to be? This in particular: it is the receptacle of all coming into being, like its nurse. Now although the truth has been spoken, a clearer statement about it is still required but it is difficult to do so, particularly because it is necessary for the sake of this to raise a preliminary problem about fire and its accompaniments. It is difficult in the case of each of these to state what sort should actually be called water rather than fire, and what sort should be referred to as anything in particular rather than as everything individually, in such a manner as to employ language which is trustworthy and certain. How then, may we speak about them in a likely manner and in what way, and what can we say about them when faced with this problem?Plato, Timaeus, 48e, translated by Horan

    The difficulty described by Timaeus is that the language of correspondence does not serve us as readily as it did in the other two models. The other difficulty is that third entity is prior to the other entities as a fundamental ground of natural being. The new beginning is in that sense a second sailing as taken in the Phaedo (to which Fooloso4 often refers to).

    A scholar who takes that perspective seriously is John Sallis. He takes issue with Aristotle's interpretation of Plato's passage:

    For, according to Aristotle, this is what Plato declared the receptacle to be: “a substratum [ύποκείμενον] prior to the so-called elements, just as gold is the substratum of works made of gold.” Though in this context Aristotle refers to one other image of the χώρα, that of nurse (τιθήνη), he forgoes drawing on the content of that image and, instead, moves immediately to identify the receptacle with “primary matter” (329a). Yet the passage that is, at once, both most decisive and most puzzling occurs in Book 4 of the Physics: “This is why Plato says in the Timaeus that matter and the χώρα are the same; for the receptive and the χώρα are one and the same. Although the manner in which he speaks about the receptive in the Timaeus differs from that in the so-called unwritten teachings, nevertheless he declares that place [τόπος] and the χώρα are the same” (209b).

    One cannot but be struck by the lack of correspondence between this passage and the text of the Timaeus. The passage declares three identifications: that of the receptive (μεταληπτικόν) with the χώρα, that of matter (ύλη) with the χώρα, and that of place (τόπος) with the χώρα. Only the first of these identifications has any basis in the text of the Timaeus, and then only if one disregards any difference that might distinguish μεταληπτικόν from the Platonic words δεχόμενον and ύποδοχή.

    For the identification of ύλη with the χώρα, there is no basis in the Timaeus. Plato never uses the word ύλη in Aristotle’s sense, a sense that, one suspects, comes to be constituted and delimited only in and through the work of Aristotle. When Plato does, on a few occasions, use the word, it has the common, everyday sense of building material such as wood, earth, or stone. Following Aristotle’s own strategy in On Generation and Corruption, one could refer to the image of the constantly remodeled gold as providing support for the identification. But reference to this image could be decisive only if one privileged it over most of the others, disregarding, for instance, the image of the nurse, which represents the relation between the χώρα and the sensible in a way quite irreducible to that between matter and the things formed from it. What is perhaps even more decisive is that all these are images of the χώρα, images declared in an είκώς λόγος (likely account}, which is to be distinguished from the bastardly discourse in which one would venture to say the χώρα.
    — John Sallis, Chorology: On Beginning in Plato's Timaeus

    What makes the passage from Physics even more convoluted is that Aristotle is not actually agreeing with the view he ascribes to Plato regarding whether 'place' belongs to a being as its form and matter do:

    We have seen that attributions are made directly, in virtue of their immediate applicability, or mediately, because, though not immediately applicable themselves, they include, involve, or imply something that is immediately applicable. And so, too, a ‘place’ may be assigned to an object either primarily because it is its special and exclusive place, or mediately because it is ‘common’ to it and other things, or is the universal place that includes the proper places of all things.

    I mean, for instance, that you, at this moment, are in the universe because you are in the air, which air is in the universe; and in the air because on the earth; and in like manner on the earth because on the special place which ‘contains and circumscribes you, and no other body.

    But if what we mean by the ‘place’ of a body is its immediate envelope, then ‘place’ is a limiting determinant, which suggests that it is the specifying or moulding ‘form’ by which the concrete quantum, together with its component matter, is ‘determined.’ For it is just the office of a limit so to determine or mould something. From this point of view, then, we should identify ‘place’ with ‘form.

    But if we think of a thing’s place as its ‘dimensionality’ or ‘room-occupancy’ (to be distinguished from the thing itself, as a concrete quantum) we must then regard it as ‘matter’ rather than as ‘form,’ for matter is the factor that is bounded and determined by the form, as a surface, or other limit, moulds and determines; for it is just that which is in itself undetermined, but capable of being determined, that we mean by matter. Thus, if a concrete sphere, e.g., be stripped of its limit, as well as of its other determining characteristics, nothing but its matter is left.

    This is why Plato, in the Timaeus, identifies, a ‘matter’ and ‘room,’ because ‘room’ and ‘the receptive-of-determination’ are one and the same thing. His account of the ‘receptive’ differs in the Timaeus and in what are known as his Unwritten Teachings, but he is consistent in asserting the identity of ‘place’ (τόπον) and ‘room.’(χώραν) Thus, whereas everyone asserts the reality of ‘place,’ only Plato has so much as attempted to tell us what it is.

    It is no wonder that, when thus regarded,—either as matter or as form, I mean,—‘place’ should seem hard to grasp, especially as matter and form themselves stand at the very apex of speculative thought, and cannot well, either of them, be cognized as existing apart from the other.

    But in truth it is easy enough to see that its place cannot possibly be either the matter or the form of a thing; for neither of these is separable from the thing itself, as its place undoubtedly is. For we have already explained that ‘where’ the air was ‘there’, again the water is, when the water and air succeed each other, and so too with any other substance; and therefore its ‘place’ can be neither a factor nor an intrinsic possession of the thing, but is something separable from it.
    — Aristotle, Physics, 209a, translated by Wicksteed and Cornford
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    What makes the passage from Physics even more convoluted is that Aristotle is not actually agreeing with the view he ascribes to Plato regarding whether 'place' belongs to a being as its form and matter do:Paine
    :up: I find this an interesting topic. Chora is a new concept to me. It sounds abstract and daunting to understand the concept due to all the background situation with Timaeus. However, it certainly is one of the interesting topic in the ancient Greek philosophy.

    This is why Plato, in the Timaeus, identifies, a ‘matter’ and ‘room,’ because ‘room’ and ‘the receptive-of-determination’ are one and the same thing. His account of the ‘receptive’ differs in the Timaeus and in what are known as his Unwritten Teachings, but he is consistent in asserting the identity of ‘place’ (τόπον) and ‘room.’(χώραν) Thus, whereas everyone asserts the reality of ‘place,’ only Plato has so much as attempted to tell us what it is. — Aristotle, Physics, 209a, translated by Wicksteed and Cornford
    I was doing a quick reasoning on space, and noticed that space contains matter, but matter also contains space.

    Notice most of the spaces perceptible are actually contained in the matter? e.g. the space in the boxes, rooms, houses, airplanes, cars, ships, pubs, in the lunch boxes, bags ..... etc. Therefore could it be the case the open space into the sky and to the whole universe could be contained in some gigantic matter? Could the matter which contains the whole universe be then, the Chora?
  • Paine
    2.5k
    Therefore could it be the case the open space into the sky and to the whole universe could be contained in some gigantic matter?Corvus

    That is how some have interpreted the 'nesting' quality of Aristotle's description of 'places within places.' That interpretation, however, runs afoul of Aristotle saying 'place' is not a material or formal limit:

    But in truth it is easy enough to see that its place cannot possibly be either the matter or the form of a thing; for neither of these is separable from the thing itself, as its place undoubtedly is. — ibid

    It is difficult for us Moderns to approach the idea because we tend to accept the idea of space as infinite extension in the manner of Descartes and Pascal. It may help to look at how the words involved were used before approaching Aristotle and Sallis' objections to his interpretation of Timaeus.

    The first meaning given in the Lexicon for χώρα is:

    Aeschylus = χῶρος, space or room in which a thing is, defined as partly occupied space, distd. fr. κενόν and τόπος.

    As you look down the list of entries, you will find many combinations of τόπος and χώρα used together, one sense of "location" qualifying the other as needed. Here is a sentence in Plato that has all of the three words used by Aristotle in the Physics passage in one place:

    ΑΘ. Τί δὲ δή; ναυπηγησίμης ὕληςτόπος ἡμῖν τῆς χώρας πῶς ἔχει; translated as:
    Well, then, how is our district off for timber for ship-building?
    Plato, Laws, 705c

    ὕλης is just wood, χώρας is district or region, and τόπος means 'status' or 'condition.'

    This comparison validates Sallis' criticism of Aristotle's statement but leaves us a long distance to go toward understanding what is meant in the Timaeus or the Physics. The reference to "unwritten teachings" is more than a little maddening.
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    I have ordered a copy of the Sallis book, Chorology. Will try have a read on the book, and do some studies on the concept. It seems a bit convoluted concept for sure.

    A place is made of space with boundary around it, hence it sounds place is always artificial entity. Space is a natural and transcendent entity which covers the whole universe. Is space a matter? or is it non-matter? It looks space is not mental for sure, but is not matter either.

    Matter has mass, but space doesn't have mass. So how had space been created, and started to exist in the universe?
  • Paine
    2.5k

    Okay. Sallis requires careful reading of Timaeus to be of any value. I suggest starting there.

    Before addressing your description of place, I think we have to approach why Plato says it is so difficult to talk about.
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    That is how some have interpreted the 'nesting' quality of Aristotle's description of 'places within places.' That interpretation, however, runs afoul of Aristotle saying 'place' is not a material or formal limit:Paine

    Aristotle's Topos has anything to do with Chora? What are the differences between Chora and Topos? Or are they related to each other?
  • Paine
    2.5k
    Your link raises some interesting questions and historical comparisons.

    There is still a lot of work to be done understanding what Aristotle was intending to say for me to rely too much upon the lexicon used in histories of philosophy.

    If you search this topic on Google Scholar, there is a fair sample of the range of opinions of those who read Aristotle closely for the purpose of gleaning his intentions.

    If you read the Sallis book, you will find people who closely read Plato that way too.

    Maybe the collision of those two endeavors requires its own OP. That is above my pay grade.
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    Maybe the collision of those two endeavors requires its own OP. That is above my pay grade.Paine

    You are well over my pay grade on these concepts. If you think it is worth a topic, and would start its own OP, I would follow the discussion reading and learning about them. Chora and Topos seem to be both interesting concepts in that they would expand the path of discussion into the idealism vs. realism direction, hence would help us to see the world in more accurate way, as it is.

    There is no such a thing as the world as it is it might seem to the Humean vulgars, but it is a gradual concept i.e. which unfolds from the imagination, dreams, illusions, fantasies, and daily ordinary lives to the objective physical world which can be mapped into the mathematical formulas and scientific principles, to which we try to arrive via the philosophical arguments and insights.
  • Paine
    2.5k

    I find the general category of "idealism vs. realism" unhelpful when reading ancient texts. It retrojects later interpretations on to authors that had their own problems and concerns.

    Reading to understand the latter is always difficult and is an act of interpretation as well. But it is different from placing ideas into a model unused by previous thinkers.
  • Corvus
    3.4k
    I know what you mean. But I wonder if one could transcend the present time, when one is reading the past original texts. One will always read them from the stand point at he / she is in the time. One cannot be the original writers who lived 2500 years ago.

    And another point is, I am not sure if idealism vs realism argument is only for the later and contemporary interpretations. After all, Plato was propounding the material world is false,and the ideal world is real and true, to which Aristotle retorted no, that is not the case. From Aristotle's point of view the actual particulars are true and real, which was the foundation of nominalism and realism.

    Therefore neither it would be a wrong interpretation, nor placing ideas into a model unused by previous thinkers.
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