I wouldn't be sure about that.

Trump might not be a dependable partner, we'll see. There's still those Americans that actually believe in a healthy way in their country and it's role in the World. The self-hatred hasn't become endemic.

You might think the US is over, that's it's time is finished. But hold on, there's nobody replacing them. So the end might not be just around the corner. China and Russia are facing big problems themselves.

There's still those Americans that actually believe in a healthy way in their country and it's role in the World. The self-hatred hasn't become endemic. — ssu

I don't hate the US. There's something beautiful about its ambitions, its values, and its tendency to fall ass backwards into incredibly good luck. I've spent a lot of time immersed in history, and its had the effect of making the present moment seem fleeting. I can see how the US sizes up compared to the biggies of history. The US is just the tail end of the British Empire, which invented global trade for our world. I see flames in the future, and maybe a split in our species between technology-loving and technology-hating. That's where my head is. But I hope the best for Europe.

The US is just the tail end of the British Empire, which invented global trade for our world. — frank

That's a really neat way to look at it. Well, global trade had been around for a long time. Some might argue that it really went off when the Ottomans basically cut the ties of Europe to the Far East and the Silk Road didn't work as earlier. Thus the Portuguese and the Spanish went looking for maritime trade roots and found them (plus another continent in addition). The last transformation happened when countries like China and India changed the economic policies from the ruinous socialism to capitalism in their own way (as still the Chinese think their system is Marxism).

I see flames in the future, and maybe a split in our species between technology-loving and technology-hating. That's where my head is. But I hope the best for Europe. — frank

The luddites broke machines in the 19th Century, so even that isn't anything new. Yet the dramatic change of people who work on the fields in the countryside and now are in cities didn't happen with huge swarms of unemployed farmers and farm workers roaming the countryside.

There has been always flames somewhere. I'm not so sure it's really the time to say "Après moi, le déluge".

Climate change

You think we aren't capable of adapting to a changing climate?

Do you think that a declining Global population will still mean perpetual growth?

People tend to take the alarmist attitude to alarm people, as if they wouldn't be alarmed if you say: "You know, this issue will suck in the future"

You think we aren't capable of adapting to a changing climate? — ssu

I think the species will survive, but I assume maximum CO2 emissions, so all the coal in the world being burned over the next couple of centuries. That will produce a large scale spike in temperature that will last about a few thousand years, and then the temperature will start coming back down. It's the dramatic swings that will likely take out the present global order. As it sets in, I would expect humans to start trying to preserve our knowledge base for the people of future.

Do you think that a declining Global population will still mean perpetual growth? — ssu

I think survival will be a challenge for the next 5-10 thousand years.

People tend to take the alarmist attitude to alarm people, as if they wouldn't be alarmed if you say: "You know, this issue will suck in the future" — ssu

There's a good side and a bad side to everything. You keep interpreting me as pessimistic or full of self loathing. Neither is true.

There's a good side and a bad side to everything. You keep interpreting me as pessimistic or full of self loathing. Neither is true. — frank

I'm not making any ad hominem remarks. But coming back to the topic of the thread, one has to understand that Anti-Americanism typically leads to a distorted view that supports the disinformation of a totalitarian state.

We don't have to pick sides, I think it's totally logical for example be against Israel's actions in Gaza and Russia's actions in Ukraine. Yet the Anti-American typically goes with the thinking of my enemy's enemy is my friend. In fact one commentator in this thread (perhaps unintentionally) told the reason why the strange bias: he didn't want the US to be looked at as a knight in shining armor. Whatever other faults we might have, those faults don't make supporting a country that is attacked unjustified. It's not the victims fault that the aggressor in this case disrespects the agreements it has made earlier and has imperialist motives to annex other states.

[...] yet there are many Putin apologists like one frequent commentator on the thread [...] — ssu

In fact one commentator in this thread [...] — ssu

No idea if this latest jab was aimed at me, but is this some kindergarten-level attempt at misrepresenting other people's opinions while trying to save yourself from a rebuke?

Grow up.

one has to understand that Anti-Americanism typically leads to a distorted view that supports the disinformation of a totalitarian state.

We don't have to pick sides, I think it's totally logical for example be against Israel's actions in Gaza and Russia's actions in Ukraine. Yet the Anti-American typically goes with the thinking of my enemy's enemy is my friend. — ssu

This entire thread can be renamed to Pro-American / Anti-American illusions.

Because the majority of sub-topics and arguments in here are generally only about that and nothing else. The biggest problem in this thread is that people project their emotional and political ideologies in the form of fallacious arguments about Ukraine, rather than out of facts or rational reasoning. So instead of being about the war, about Russian aggression and the ripple effects into world politics, for the most part it's mostly just anti-American evangelists coming into conflict with people trying to make arguments that the anti-Americans fallaciously argue is pro-American.

It's a thread riddled with reductionist, overgeneralization, genetic, and false cause fallacies.

Most of the back and forth between people in this thread has been extremely low quality and it's just running on empty these days.

In fact one commentator in this thread (perhaps unintentionally) told the reason why the strange bias: he didn't want the US to be looked at as a knight in shining armor — ssu

At least one of the people who said that was Isaac in an exchange with me. An otherwise normal person becomes unhinged when the topic is the USA. Weird.

At least one of the people who said that was Isaac in an exchange with me. An otherwise normal person becomes unhinged when the topic is the USA. Weird. — frank

Yes, I think it was him, thanks for reminding it. Nice that others too follow what fellow members write here! And I think it was really a honest reply. People do get unhinged when the topic is the US, especially it's foreign policy. Israel and Palestinian conflict is another example, which also is understandable when you think of it.

In US foreign policy, just as with all Great Powers, you find such differences that it's hard to assume that you are talking about the same nation. Compare US foreign policy and influence on let's say the UK or Sweden, and then to Panama or Guatemala. This is evident when we think about just how NATO did enlarge itself and what soul searching mission it went to before coming back to it's roots. Here the crucial actors were the Eastern European states themselves and finally, neutral nations like Sweden and Finland and their people clearly responding to Russian actions. How unique NATO (and the EU) are can be seen when you compare it to the short history of it's fellow treaty organizations, CENTO and SEATO. The main reason why these sister organizations failed was because the member states didn't share common objectives or common threats. The threat environment of Pakistan and the Philippines is totally different, as different as the geographical location of the two states.

Israel and Palestinian conflict is another example, which also is understandable when you think of it. — ssu

Yes. I think this will haunt Israel forever. It was a terrible mistake.

Yes. I think this will haunt Israel forever. It was a terrible mistake. — frank

What is happening now, yes.

It's telling that when the ICJ issued the arrest warrants for both Netanyahu and Gallant, the Hamas leader also issued that arrest warrant has now already been killed by Israel.

It is a story extremely successful military/terrorist operation launched by Hamas, which created a horrific event that first shocked the Israeli people and then made them cry for revenge, and of a government that was willing to milk this feeling for all it's worth as an opportunity to solve the Palestinian problem once and for all, something that never has been dared to be done earlier. The criticism of Israel has emerged from the understanding that it indeed was a Western democracy, hence not to be judged similarly as the undemocratic autocracies that surround it.

And to put these threads together: What is happening in Ukraine, in Israel and the successful march of populist authoritarianism can taken together be made into a picture of us losing the values that West did achieve in the 20th Century. A picture where liberal democracy is really under attack as it was in the 1930's. There might be too much gloom and doom in this picture, but only the future will tell us if it's correct or not.

Yet the silence in the Israel-Palestine conflict thread, Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, is to me, a bit discomforting. In the last month only me, @BitconnectCarlos and @Benkei have written to that thread. Yet a lot has happened in the Middle East.

And yes, I understand why this thread is put into the "lounge". Yes, this is a philosophy forum. Yes, @Christoffer is right about what the "Ukraine Crises" has become. But if this is a Philosophy forum and we are the people who love wisdom and have a passionate pursuit of inner understanding about the relationship between one's true self and one's world, what does it mean when we don't want to comment the obvious tragedies that are happening around us?

You haven't once mentioned the hostages. It's like they're invisible to you.

It's also, in a way, been overshadowed by events in Syria. But when it's Arabs killing Arabs there will never be any mass protests or ICC arrest warrants.