Sure but I was referring to government officials not people in general.

Government officials are people too, so I think it applies even to them (perhaps a smaller percentage).

UAP does not entail aliens; the concern is that a foreign government might be using technology beyond ours. — Relativist

But that’s not what was said from people like Elizondo. He talked directly of NHI. And there were several questions about this. I’m not saying it’s true or he’s not lying, but this wasn’t just a hearing on foreign adversary technology.

The notion that aliens are here is an irrational conspiracy theory. Members of Congress are as susceptible to this as anyone (former Senator Harry Reid was a believer) — Relativist

Right but the more established the institution, the more prominent the officials willing to entertain the inquiries on UAP, the more susceptible the public will be in believing something fantastical is going on. So here we are with increased alleged drone and UAP sightings.

just don't understand why aliens from distant planets want my used appliances and furniture. They could at least offer to trade something -- maybe their old orgazmatron couch, or some nice floor covering? — BC

Aliens are huge thrift store shoppers. They like a good deal and love knick knacks. The clutter in their space ships looks like a grandma's house.

I don't believe there are aliens flying around, and I don't spend time thinking about it. I prefer to get my fix of aliens visiting earth (or earthlings being the aliens on some other planet) from well crafted science fiction. Reading takes time, and not everybody has the leisure. Plus, a lot of sci-fi stories are disappointing duds.

You've heard of Fermi's Paradox? "If intelligent life is plentiful in the universe, then where is everybody? We should have been visited."

In my universe, beings who have spent light years getting here would not spend decades playing hide and seek games. They would fly over, land on the ground or hover over it, and it would be crystal clear to everyone that THEY were here. Then they would come out of their ships and demand tribute in the form of kitchen and laundry appliances which Americans worked very hard to get (according to @Hanover). Chinese and French appliances are of no interest to them.

In order to make us understand how serious they were, they would probably blow Manhattan to smithereens with one shot.

After America had been fleeced of every Maytag, Ikea chair, and Miele dishwasher worth having, with all the loot loaded up, they'd leave and go back to XZV4739b and sell their plunder to eager homeowners there. Will they be back? Depends on fashion trends out there in the various galactic arms.

But that’s not what was said from people like Elizondo. He talked directly of NHI. ...

...Right but the more established the institution, the more prominent the officials willing to entertain the inquiries on UAP, the more susceptible the public will be in believing something fantastical is going on — schopenhauer1

I expect there are some members of Congress who take kooks like Elizando seriously, but focusing on national security provides common ground, and lets them play both sides.

Will these hearings get more people on the bandwagon? The hearings and reports will surely feed the true-believers. I guess that it will bring attention to the topic, so it could induce receptive people to take it more seriously..

You've heard of Fermi's Paradox? "If intelligent life is plentiful in the universe, then where is everybody? We should have been visited." — BC

Never thought that one a particularly useful paradox. If aliens have sufficiently advanced technology to get here from Christ knows how many light years away, and defy laws of physics as we know them, then I would also conclude they might have capacity to visit without us being aware of their presence. The big surprise really would be huge silver saucers in the sky - more likely to be the Russians. :razz:

For aliens that have such technology, I assume we would be like the people of North Sentinel Island, violent and should be left alone. Any kind of contact ought to be made with extreme caution and with time. We are the most violent and dangerous species to ever inhabit this World. Our closest relatives are the Chimps, that ought to tell us just how murderous bigots we are. :wink:

Nicely put. I remember Neil deGrasse Tyson talking about what it might be like for an advanced alien to talk to us. It might be a lot like when we talk to a chimp.

@Relativist @ssu @Tom Storm @BC
@Hanover I thought this video useful. Mind you, this came out before the second Congressional hearing but after the first one (with David Grusch), so it looks like these are all people involved in the same UFO circles and are circular referencing each other, perhaps. If that is the case, this adds more to the point about "epistemology" and how one determines the truth of the matter. Can a kooky group of people be right by accident, or can they be dismissed out of hand for all the fringe stuff they are involved in? Like a broken clock, can a fringe group actually get something right, even if a majority of their interests can be thrown out as pseudo-science? Either way, the only thing that piques my interest from these groups is the seriousness which the US government takes some of the claims. At least, it is serious enough to allow for hearings and to be televised, etc. Of course, we can say that we are just living in a big entertainment world right now, so it's to be expected, and that probably wouldn't be wrong. It's all the spectacle and truth is basically "the spectacle", pace Guy Debord.

Keep in mind with this video, that there is seems to be an implicit bias here- it seems like a hit piece. Also, I believe AATIP was actually recognized contra this video as another name for a division of an actual program from the Pentagon called AASAP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Aerospace_Threat_Identification_Program

So it looks like even Greenstreet was given misinformation from the Pentagon for which he drew his conclusions. However, I think the notion that these UFO folks are from the same circle is relevant to the credibility.

Can a kooky group of people be right by accident, or can they be dismissed out of hand for all the fringe stuff they are involved in? Like a broken clock, can a fringe group actually get something right, even if a majority of their interests can be thrown out as pseudo-science? — schopenhauer1

The notion that the government has been hiding the known presence of extraterrestrial beings/technology can absolutely be dismissed out of hand. The probability is infinitesimal that technically advanced, motivated aliens exist within a navigable distance from earth.

Can the true-believers get "something" right? Not sure what that might be, other than the fact that there is secrecy in the military. The general problem is that they fit everything into their belief that aliens are (or have been) here, and the government is hiding this from us.

Can the true-believers get "something" right? Not sure what that might be, other than the fact that there is secrecy, in the military. The general problem is that they fit everything into their belief that aliens are (or have been) here, and the government is hiding this from us. — Relativist

I agree. If you look at that video in my last post you can see that it's the pet project of some people that seems to have been given more air time. But again, my interest is not really the claims so much as the increase in institutions taking it seriously. Otherwise, I wouldn't care so much or be interested. If I see a clip from C-SPAN I expect some boring stuff about a new monument or budget, or currently, grandstanding politicians about whatever issue. I don't expect UFOs. So when I see that, I take notice. Here is another revealing video below from the first hearing.

Here is another revealing video below.

They had me at dinobeavers.

@Relativist @ssu @Tom Storm @BC
@Hanover
For reference, here are the two hearings where people testified to Congress under oath about these programs. Skip around to what might interest you.

David Grusch and First Hearing


Luis Elizondo and Second Hearing

They had me at dinobeavers. — wonderer1

:lol:

my interest is not really the claims so much as the increase in institutions taking it seriously. — schopenhauer1

If RFKJr is confirmed as Secretary of HHS, we may see considerably more institutions taking silly claims seriously.

I forgot to include this:

So, I either read -- or heard on YouTube -- a proposal that the drones over New York and New Jersey were probably US military drones looking for nuclear radiation emissions. Why?

The story said there have been a couple of radiation spikes detected previously in the NY / NJ area which were not explained. This source said that there are fears that North Korea might over time smuggle the various parts for a complete atomic bomb into the country, then assemble it and use it at their convenience.

Of course, WE don't know where THEY put the bomb parts (or bomb) so scanning is covering a large area, looking for abnormal radiation emissions. (I don't know how much radiation a nuclear core would emit, just sitting there on someone's coffee table.).

This scenario is the sort of thing the government would be secretive about, lest people fear the worse and suddenly act on their fears in mass panic. If I thought there was a surreptitious nuclear bomb in my neighborhood, I'd be worried.

This seems like a far more plausible scenario than aliens from a long ways away. Earthlings have always been able to out-alienate everybody else in the galaxy.

EDIT:

I DIDN'T READ THIS ON REDDIT, BUT SOMEBODY ELSE...

https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1heg8ot/could_the_drones_be_looking_for_a_suspected_nuke/

Back in the 1970s, one Saturday on University of Minnesota Radio, I heard speeches at a conference on extraterrestrial life. Ashley Montague, an anthropologist, asked the question "What would we do if we encountered a superior civilization?" Well, he said, we would wipe them out as soon as possible -- as we had done already on our own planet, as people have encountered superior civilizations -- or at least successful, happy civilizations that were 'different' than us.

The story said there have been a couple of radiation spikes detected previously in the NY / NJ area which were not explained. This source said that there are fears that North Korea might over time smuggle the various parts for a complete atomic bomb into the country, then assemble it and use it at their convenience. — BC

I heard this story too but I thought it was debunked.

According to some in the UFO community, the idea of "disclosure" is big. That is the idea that the government might slowly disclose that we know of UFOs and NHI all along. Some claim that the government is slowly dripping it because they think it's such a shift in our view of the world, they cannot do it all at once without causing panic. Of course, every time they think it will be disclosed, it never does. These drone incidents would probably be seen in this light.

For fun's sake, let's say it's all true. The government has aliens and alien technology and have for years. If they were to disclose this, what would be the best way to do this understanding social psychology?

Edit: What's interesting about this disclosure idea is that it can become a hope akin to religion, because you can always look for increasing signs that the government is going to reveal it any day now..

Interestingly enough you have a lot of strands going on at the same time. They can be completely isolated or connected.

Strand 1: UFO hearings.
Strand 2: Increased activity of drones and UAP around military bases.
Strand 3: Current drones reported near New Jersey

1 can inform the rest by simply getting people to be distracted while testing drones.
2 can be connected to 3.

The more fringe theories would say 1, 2, and 3 are all connected.

One of the things I find annoying about the drone business in New Jersey is the dismissal of observations reported by ordinary people. I live relatively close to a large airport in a metropolitan area. There's also a military air base operation. I've never had difficulty identifying what was overhead from sound alone -- prop planes, jets, and helicopters of various sizes make different kinds of noises, and they move in distinctive ways. In the day time one can see them, too, of course.

True enough, a large passenger plane taking off at night can seem like it is hovering at certain points in its flight, but this is a very short-lived phenomena. Within a minute or two the impression of hovering ceases aas the plane picks up speed and climbs. By the time a plane is overhead it is unmistakably a plane--not a bird, not Superman, not a drone.

My guess is that people in New Jersey have some idea about what they are seeing that is reasonably accurate. Helicopters make distinctive noise, and if they are hovering, it's a pain in the neck to listen to them. My understanding is that drones don't make helicopter-type sounds; instead it's a whine. How far away one can hear a large drone whining, don't know.

I have no idea whether the Koreans or Iranians or Australians might be hiding a nuclear bomb or two, smuggled into the country. It's not a far-fetched idea. What better way to stage a decapitation event as part of a war?

Perhaps Santa Claus is testing out drones as a humane alternative to forcing reindeer to fly thousands and thousands of miles in one night. Or maybe Santa is looking for gains in delivery efficiency. This business of landing on roofs, slithering down a narrow dirty (and possibly hot) chimney (if there even is one) with a bag has to be a nightmare of wasted time and motion. If they capture a drone, it is likely to be "manned" by elves. Or, maybe Santa needs more data about who's been bad or good, and the old Christmas surveillance methods just aren't sufficient any more.

I have no idea whether the Koreans or Iranians or Australians might be hiding a nuclear bomb or two, smuggled into the country. It's not a far-fetched idea. What better way to stage a decapitation event as part of a war? — BC

Why only looking at night? Clearly that isn't much of a cover :lol:.

Perhaps Santa Claus is testing out drones as a humane alternative to forcing reindeer to fly thousands and thousands of miles in one night. Or maybe Santa is looking for gains in delivery efficiency. This business of landing on roofs, slithering down a narrow dirty (and possibly hot) chimney (if there even is one) with a bag has to be a nightmare of wasted time and motion. If they capture a drone, it is likely to be "manned" by elves. Or, maybe Santa needs more data about who's been bad or good, and the old Christmas surveillance methods just aren't sufficient any more. — BC

Well, that NORAD Santa Claus tracker seems to get more attention than this New Jersey case. As you noted:

One of the things I find annoying about the drone business in New Jersey is the dismissal of observations reported by ordinary people. — BC

Seems the government is either majorly gaslighting or the drones are nothing more than the new norm of many companies and citizens flying their new flying machines.

And what about this:

For fun's sake, let's say it's all true. The government has aliens and alien technology and have for years. If they were to disclose this, what would be the best way to do this understanding social psychology? — schopenhauer1

@BC

For fun's sake, let's say it's all true. The government has aliens and alien technology and have for years. If they were to disclose this, what would be the best way to do this understanding social psychology? — schopenhauer1

The issue for me is the term "the Government" what does that really mean? Does this suggest a single, monolithic, united and coherent group who has consistently acted in unison to maintain such a secret? Or are we saying a secret body which keeps secrets - attached to government, but not really part of governing? The mind boggles.

To me it is like the term 'they'. It's always 'they' who lie to us or do bad things to us. 'They' don't want us to know the truth. 'They' are making money out of it. 'They' are responsibly for disinformation, etc, etc.

That said, this would a massive story if true and I would imagine there would be a risk of unrestrained anger, panic and scapegoating. Not sure there would be a good or entirely safe way to reveal this.

Our galaxy alone has over 100 billion stars and now we know planets are very common. Even if there were no reported UFO sightings at all, there would be rampant speculation about whether we've ever been visited or are currently being watched. With over a trillion planets in the galaxy, how could there not be speculation? Nor is that speculation epistemoligically unsound.

Notice that there already was a thread discussing this topic from two years ago. Would be useful to combine them and not start again, because otherwise something can be missed and everything has to be repeated. See UFOs.

Just a suggestion for the admin.

Aliens As Soon As Theoretically Possible.

There is no evidence because the conspiracy covers everything up.
Therefore not believing the conspiracy is compliant with the conspiracy.
If the committee cannot get to any real evidence, it is either because the committee is being duped by the conspiracy, or because the committee is part of the cover up.
There can never be a resolution, because the absence of evidence is evidence of the conspiracy.

The intelligence industry is the natural home of the paranoid, just as philosophy is the home of the gullible. And yes there is an overlap. And just because I'm paranoid, that doesn't mean there's no conspiracy; on the contrary, the paranoid are always conspiring, so nothing to see here.

The question I have for the aliens, not knowing if they are benevolent or malevolent, is why they are cooperating with opposed and secretive governments to hide their presence from folks that would be willing to cooperate with anyone who wasn't the current government of whichever country? It makes them look weak; and surely they are not weak?

Same as other thread in Lounge. It looks like a very similar conversation from the previous round. I guess I didn't pay much attention to the first one, and this one caught my attention for some reason, but being that this is a continuation of that first "hearing", it is good to keep the conversation of this weird social phenomenon going.

The issue for me is the term "the Government" what does that really mean? Does this suggest a single, monolithic, united and coherent group who has consistently acted in unison to maintain such a secret? Or are we saying a secret body which keeps secrets - attached to government, but not really part of governing? The mind boggles.

To me it is like the term 'they'. It's always 'they' who lie to us or do bad things to us. 'They' don't want us to know the truth. 'They' are making money out of it. 'They' are responsibly for disinformation, etc, etc. — Tom Storm

Haha, it's always some shadowy smoke filled backroom somewhere with anonymous men in suits under hazy light. I guess in this case "they" is supposed to be some "secret" super top secret arm of a military or intelligence community. This one is allegedly known as "Immanent Constellation" or something like that. Usually it's alleged to be somewhere in the Pentagon.