Like real numbers series (i.e. continuum), like unbounded surfaces, like fractals ...... an infinite series of beings ... — Bob Ross
"Exist" is not a predicate of any subject but instead is merely a property (indicative) of existence like wet is a property (indicative) of water (such that whatever is in contact with water is also wet). Aristotle's notion of "contingency" (accident) fallaciously reifies predication, or conflates his abstract map(making) with concrete terrains.... lack the power to exist (i.e., are contingent)
Okay, and yet another anachronistic metaphysical generalization abstracted from pseudo-physics – of no bearing on contemporary (philosophical) usage of "causality" ...By cause, I mean it in the standard Aristotelian sense of that which actualized the potentiality.
Again, conflating (a) map(making) with a terrain further confuses the issue. :roll:... spatiotemporalityimplies[affords] divisibility.
Principally because the AristotleanCertainly, the Thomist "Five Proofs" are not sound.
— 180 Proof
Why not? What false premises do they contain, if they are not sound? — Arcane Sandwich
...from an old thread concerning Thomistic sophistry:
[ ... ]
And [another] excerpt from an old post objecting to the soundness, etc of "the cosmological argument": — 180 Proof
Principally because the Aristotlean
premises used by Aquinas (& other Scholastic apologists) are metaphysical generalizations abstracted from (his) pseudo-physics (e.g. universal telology, absolute non-vacuum, absolute non-motion, etc) which are not factually true of matters of fact (or nature). Consider the following further objections to "the soundness" of Aquinas' Quinque viæ (by clicking on my username below) ...
...from an old thread concerning Thomistic sophistry:
[ ... ]
And [another] excerpt from an old post objecting to the soundness, etc of "the cosmological argument":
— 180 Proof — 180 Proof
18. The physical parts of a composed being cannot exist in something which is purely simple and actual; for, then, it would not be without parts.
19. Therefore, the forms of the composed beings must exist in the purely simple and actual being. — Bob Ross
A part is something which contributes to the composition of the whole. I keep it purposefully that vague, because I don’t think a more robust definition is necessary for intents of the OP.
To answer your question directly: in principle, there could be a part which is composed or uncomposed—those are the two logical options; and there is nothing, thusly, about a part per se which entails one or the other. — Bob Ross
No, that is a contradiction. Nothing which is spatiotemporal can be absolutely simple (i.e., an ‘aristotelian atom’); for everything in space and time is divisible. — Bob Ross
This means that, similarly to how Aristotle notes that an infinite per se series of things changing do not themselves have the power to initiate that change (e.g., an infinite series of inter-linked gears have no power themselves to rotate each other, so an infinite series of rotating gears is ceteris paribus absurd), forms comprised of other forms comprised of other forms comprised of other forms <…> ad infinitum do not have the power to keep existence (let alone to exist at all). — Bob Ross
If I understand your question correctly as asking why an infinite per se series of a composed being’s parts cannot just be explained as necessary — Bob Ross
If he is his thoughts he cannot move his mind but if he doesn't move his mind than he cannot move. To have thoughts mean movement.
Like real numbers series (i.e. continuum), like unbounded surfaces, like fractals ...
"Exist" is not a predicate of any subject but instead is merely a property (indicative) of existence like wet is a property (indicative) of water (such that whatever is in contact with water is also wet).
conflates his abstract map(making) with concrete terrains.
Okay, and yet another anachronistic metaphysical generalization abstracted from pseudo-physics – of no bearing on contemporary (philosophical) usage of "causality" ...
So I personally do not like the idea of an infinite regress, and view it as a 'god of the gaps' argument
But for this argument in particular how is this any less 'impossible' then something that has no prior cause having the energy to start and power everything else that comes after it?
2. Infinite regressive causality has no prior cause. Yet it somehow has all the energy to power infinity to A which powers B which powers C.
Infinite regressive causality has no prior cause.
If something can appear without prior cause that powers everything,
why is it not possible for an infinite series of 'gears' for example that has infinite power spread all over itself to power it all at once?
Its good to chat with you again!
A god of the gaps argument is an argument for God’s existence by appeal to ignorance. — Bob Ross
This ‘energetic and powerful’ entity which has no prior cause that keeps things existent would be the absolutely simple being. As the OP demonstrates, the existence of composed objects necessitates an absolutely simple being at the bottom. — Bob Ross
I do not hold that a thing can appear and then actualize everything: I hold that there is an eternal and immutable being which is absolutely simple and purely actual. — Bob Ross
In other words, whatever being you are positing here as having the energy to power everything would have to be absolutely simple; and then you end up looping back around to the idea God exists (: — Bob Ross
2. Infinite regressive causality has no prior cause. Yet it somehow has all the energy to power infinity to A which powers B which powers C.
This is absurd, and not actually possible. Again, go back to the gear example: you are saying that an infinite series of gears moving each subsequent gear is possible because “somehow the infinite series is such that each can do that”; — Bob Ross
Infinite regressive causality has no prior cause.
An infinite series itself cannot be treated like an object: it would not have any ability to do anything, because it is just itself a series. — Bob Ross
I do not hold that a thing can appear and then actualize everything: I hold that there is an eternal and immutable being which is absolutely simple and purely actual. — Bob Ross
Because what I think you are missing is that the gears don’t have the ability to move themselves; so this “infinite power” would have to come from something outside of that series which affects the series — Bob Ross
Right. But what exactly does it mean? Am I complex-composed, or simple-non-compositional? How exactly does it work in the proof, and what exactly does it prove? And lacking requisite clarity at even this first premise, there is no point in proceeding to the second or beyond.It means that a being which is complex, which has composition, has parts which comprise it. — Bob Ross
1. Composed beings are made up of parts. — Bob Ross
2. A composed being exists contingently upon its parts in their specific arrangement. — Bob Ross
Therefore, a series of composed beings must have, ultimately, uncomposed parts as its first cause. — Bob Ross
An uncomposed being (such as an uncomposed part) is purely simple, since it lacks any parts. — Bob Ross
27. To be good is to lack any privation of what the thing is. — Bob Ross
God is not his thoughts and God doesn't move himself — Bob Ross
thoughts does not imply movement: movement is physical, thoughts are mental — Bob Ross
I don't know, a lot of this quantum physics stuff I think gets misinterpreted into voodoo; or, worse, tries to force us to disband from the truths about macros things that I am certainly not willing to give up. We still have no reconciliation of QP with newtonian nor einsteinien physics; and this indicates that we are getting some stuff wrong here. — Bob Ross
Ok, so perhaps philosophically you can prove the existence of God. But what sort of a proof is that, and what sort of existence? I do not think anyone doubts the existence of ideas of g/Gods - is that the substance of the proof? That an idea of God exists? This way unicorns and gryphons exist, and all manner of conceivable things, and by reference all inconceivable as well. Which would imply that it is not the "substance" of such a God that matters but his accidents.This is a foundational idea in philosophy. — Leontiskos
Am I complex-composed, or simple-non-compositional? — tim wood
I agree that makes sense but it's inconsistent with Thomism. How can God be perfectly simple yet have thoughts that are not him?
But how is it properly reconciled with the 'macro' world? — Bob Ross
Its more than that. Its a reference to creating an argument of mysticism to fill in when there's a problem that's difficult to solve. I find the belief in the infinite mystical, and used to dodge the question of universal origin.
If it were an absolutely simple being, no parts, then how does it power a thing that has parts?
Wouldn't a part of the immutable being need to interact with that part?
Energy itself is a part, so it would have to impart some to another thing.
The problem is a definition of a partless immutable entity powering everything else contradicts how causation and power work.
That would be an infinite regress by time though. This is the same as an infinitely existing bar spinning itself. What powers this infinite existing being?
It also can't be partless if it is to have agency, intelligence, and infinite existence.
No, absolutely simple and something like a God do not fit. God is complex and can be identified in parts by expression at the least. Something perfectly simple would have no parts, no expression, and agency, no will.
Such a thing is not bound by logic in its existence.
. But if this is the case, there is no logic preventing an infinite regress from existing either, as it too would have no rules or reason for its origination of existence.
The problem I'm trying to note is that you need to apply the same criticism against an infinite series of no outside origin to a finite series of no outside origin. I posted a rewrite of my "Probability of a God" example a few days back where I cover this concept. You don't have to post there, but a quick read may clarify what I'm talking about. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/961721
Since we've already injected an eternal energy force without prior explanation, its not any less absurd to note the gears run infinitely regressive and share the infinite energy source which makes them run without prior origin.
My point is that if we're positing that one thing can exist that seems impossible can exist without prior cause, we draw the line at another thing that seems impossible but can exist without prior cause?
Why does it need to be immutable?
15. The purely actual being is changeless (immutable), because it lacks any passive potency which could be actualized.
If the initial push was strong enough, the pusher doesn't need to be there anymore.
Does an infinite God which is entirely simple have the ability to move itself?
1. Change is the actualization of a potential.
2. A gear cannot change itself.
3. Rotation is a form of change.
4. A gear cannot rotate itself.
5. An infinite series of gears that are interlinked would never, in itself, produce any rotation amongst the gears.
6. Therefore, if an infinite series of gears that are interlinked are such that they are each rotating, then something outside of that series is the cause of that rotation — Bob Ross
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