I often think of goth music as expressing similar things to punk music, but only in another mode. — Moliere

Goth rock grew out of punk rock, just as power metal grew out of heavy metal. Goth rock is a subgenre within punk rock.

How would you categorize Kraftwerk? — Moliere

It's Krautrock, IMHO, though that label doesn't really say much. Maybe "Experimental Music" is a more nuanced term. But it's just Krautrock at the end of the day, to my mind.

Cool.

This thread is more metal based so I can see a distinction there now that I think about it. I was seeing the Kraftwerk to Goth line of flight, rather than thinking about the context of the thread, cuz Type O etc.


One of the reasons I tagged @unenlightened in this thread is the cover is from his era, but also they claimed to steal rifts from The Beatles, only played them backwards and with different tempos. So there's a line of flight from the 60's counter-culture to metal counter-culture, tho by a niche sub-genre.

Metal is an odd genre. It allegedly started with Black Sabbath, but even that's debatable (given the existence of Coven's album prior to Black Sabbath).

I would say that both Coven and Sabbath sound more like Hippie Rock than what we usually think that metal sounds like. In that sense, I would say that Motörhead sounds more metal than both of those bands.

Just to be clear -- Motörhead sounds more metal than Coven and/or Sabbath?

Yes, it does. It's more metal than both Coven and Sabbath, which sound more like Hippie Rock. To my mind, at least.

:up:

Well now the task for me is to connect Hippie rock to METAL :D

I already gave Type O Negative tho, so prolly not in this thread. Something to think about.

Well now the task for me is to connect Hippie rock to METAL :D — Moliere

Black Sabbath is the connection there. They rejected the concepts of the Hippie movement/generation, while at the same time retaining some of its musical characteristics. They did try to push the envelope in that sense as well, of course, but at the end of the day Black Sabbath sounds more like Jefferson Airplane than Slayer or Mayhem, for example.

@Arcane Sandwich Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you







:D

Thanks! I love Siouxsie, as well as Fields. They're foundational, genre-defining bands IMHO.

All About Eve usually gets classified as goth rock. Without the stereotypes, of course.

Regarding metal, here's a band that I like.

I hear the goth rock in that song. Also a nice genre-crossing song in that it feels folk, at the same time.

She has that breathy sound that goth bands employ, but she's not doing it for affect -- she's a good singer who happens evoke that sound to me.

She was also friends with Sisters of Mercy, IIRC.

Around 1992 I migrated to jazz and classical in search of the kind of heavy I really wanted (and found Coltrane and Stravinsky), so I missed everything that happened in metal subsequently. Prior to jumping ship, I had begun with Iron Maiden, progressed to Sepultura, and eventually found myself at the more intense end of the spectrum: Death, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Carcass. Very few of those albums have stood the test of time for me personally (in my case it really was mainly just angry young man's music), but I do still like World Downfall by Terrorizer (at the punk end of thrash metal ("grindcore")) and Reign in Blood by Slayer. I went to see Sepultura, Godflesh, Carcass, Slayer and others, in fairly small venues, and I'm still living with the tinnitus.

One of the more groovy (almost funky) tracks from Terrorizer:



In the 2000s I discovered Mr Bungle, Secret Chiefs 3, and others in that ecosystem, and was thus awoken to the interesting influences that metal was having in the new century (EDIT: I think of Mr Bungle as a 2000s band, just because that's when I discovered them), but I never again got interested in contemporary mainline heavy metal.

I do love this one by Secret Chiefs 3, for the sheer horror (although I believe it's actually being performed by one of their satellite bands):

Around 1992 I migrated to jazz and classical in search of the kind of heavy I really wanted (and found Coltrane and Stravinsky) — Jamal

Jazz is definitely more technical than metal. Way more technical. Perhaps Meshuggah can hang in there with jazz musicians, but other than that, there's not much. There's some metal that has jazz influences (like Cynic, or Atheist, for example) but there is nothing in metal that comes close to the technical complexity of John Coltrane's Giant Steps. There just isn't.

I like Art Tatum, Cecil Taylor and Django Reinhardt.

I had begun with Iron Maiden, progressed to Sepultura, and eventually found myself at the more intense end of the spectrum: Death, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Carcass. Very few of those albums have stood the test of time for me personally (in my case it really was mainly just angry young man's music) — Jamal

I think that Heartwork by Carcass is the album that stood the test of time the best of those bands, which is an admittedly unpopular opinion. Morbid Angel sounds kinda corny, to be honest. Death is cool, especially because they deliberately avoided all of the stereotypical, low-hanging fruit (i.e, satanism, the devil, etc.). Sepultura is a hard case for me, but I'd say that Roots sort of stands the test of time (again, unpopular opinion, I know). Iron Maiden and Obituary get a "meh" from me. I respect them, but neither is my cup of metallic tea.

I do still like World Downfall by Terrorizer (at the punk end of thrash metal ("grindcore")) and Reign in Blood by Slayer. I went to see Sepultura, Godflesh, Carcass, Slayer and others, in fairly small venues, and I'm still living with the tinnitus. — Jamal

Terrorizer is a band that I could never really get into. In the grindcore deparment, I like Brutal Truth.



And here are the lyrics to that.

Brutal Truth - Anti-homophobe

Ignorant in thought
Distorts your twisted values
Break your ancient chains
And part with the ways of the past
You don't have the right
To force your own opinion
You don't understand
So you have to lash

Anti-homophobe

We believe in freedom
Whatever turns you on
Life is short and full of woe
So you have yourself a blast
I may not be gay
But I don't care if you are
Live your life in peace
And fuck them if they laugh — Brutal Truth

(edited because apparently I can't write without making some mistakes)

It was watching that video that finally allowed me to appreciate Cecil Taylor.

Jazz is definitely more technical than metal — Arcane Sandwich

Maybe so, but that's not the essential thing, and it's not why I moved away from metal and towards jazz.

Maybe so, but that's not the essential thing, and it's not why I moved away from metal and towards jazz. — Jamal

What do you get out of jazz specifically, that you don't get out of metal? For me it's the technicality, but perhaps it's different in your case. What does jazz have that metal doesn't, that makes it more interesting or more pleasing to your ear?

It's multi-dimensional, humane, all-encompassing. It's the difference between great literature and formulaic genre fiction. It's warmer, yet harder, more intense yet more relaxed. It's a whole world, not just a petulant little part of it, like heavy metal is.

I'm just having a hard time understanding how jazz can be harder and more intense than metal. I definitely agree that heavy metal is a petulant little part of the world, though.

What do you mean when you say that it's more intense? Metal is musical barbarism, few things are harsher than it from a musical standpoint. I'd say that Experimental Noise (in the manner of Merzbow or Masonna, for example) is one of the few genres that gives metal a run for its money in that sense.

Fair enough. It's hard to elucidate exactly what I meant by "intense" and "hard", etc., but it sounds more penetratingly intense to my sensibility, particularly things like this:



I agree that metal and noise might be often more brutal, though.

Fair enough. It's hard to elucidate exactly what I meant by "intense" and "hard", etc., but it sounds more penetratingly intense to my sensibility, particularly things like this: — Jamal

Coltrane is far too abstract for my uneducated ear, that's why I gravitate more towards metal. Because there's abstraction in metal, but not to the degree of anything that's been done in the jazz world.

In sounding so abstract, I personally fail to understand how your ear can find jazz more intense and hard, because you're probably immersed in the world of jazz to a degree that I am not. I am merely a visitor in the jazz world, it would be very difficult for me to play along and keep up during a jazz improvisation. I mean, I can hang in there, but I would be hanging in there for dear life. I find it much easier to jam in the context of blues, rock n' roll, and heavy metal. I can probably join a session and more or less play along and improvise. Don't expect great quality, though. But, at least it's something that I can more or less tackle. Jazz just seems so impossible to my admittedly unskilled abilities as a musician.

You seem to be speaking from the point of view of a musician. When I first heard Coltrane, my ear was also uneducated, but it didn’t matter: it hit me on a gut level. I loved the way it sounded and how it felt. It didn’t sound abstract and it wasn’t something I had to learn how to like.

So I took up the saxophone and found out how hard it was to play like Coltrane. But from the point of view of the listener, it’s not about abstraction or technicality. Or rather, it need not be (I admit that abstraction and technicality can be attractive in themselves).

Another reason that a focus on technique and theory is not appropriate is that many of the greatest jazz musicians have not been virtuoso players, i.e., they played idiomatically and they were were not necessarily able to play in other styles. Ornette Coleman and Miles could only play the way they played, stylistically and technically—they were a world away from the music school virtuosos like Branford Marsalis and Michael Brecker. And yet they were jazz giants.

Yup, I play the piano. I'm just an amateur, but I used to be in a rock band when I was younger. It was a sort of bluesy, progressive rock n' roll band, with a bit of experimental stuff thrown in for good measure. I know a little bit of guitar, but it's not my forte.

As an amateur pianist, I can barely play jazz. Few people in the rock n' roll / heavy metal world can, I believe. I mean, imagine the saxophone in Coltrane's "Transition" as if it was a guitar. Who can actually play those notes like that? I don't think that there's any guitarist that can. You'd have to find a jazz guitarist, like Django Reinhardt, and I'm not entirely sure that Django himself could have played like Trane. Plus, I think that we also have to acknowledge that Trane was an incredibly sophisticated musical theoretician as well. For folks that don't know what we're talking about, here's how Wikipedia describes his work in "Giant Steps":

"Giant Steps" is a jazz composition by American saxophonist John Coltrane. It was first recorded in 1959 and released on the 1960 album Giant Steps. The composition features a cyclic chord pattern that has come to be known as Coltrane changes. The composition has become a jazz standard, covered by many artists. Due to its speed and rapid transition through the three keys of B major, G major and E♭ major, Vox described the piece as "the most feared song in jazz" and "one of the most challenging chord progressions to improvise over" in the jazz repertoire. — Wikipedia

And a bit later it says:

From beginning to end, "Giant Steps" follows alternating modulations of major third and minor sixth intervals (with diminished fourth and augmented fifth intervals between B and E♭). Its structure primarily contains ii-V-I harmonic progressions (often with chord substitutions) circulating in thirds. — Wikipedia

I'd say that this song is impossible to play for 90% of musicians. The remaining 10% that can actually play it are jazz musicians, and not all of them, only the particularly skilled and knowledgeable ones. This composition is the pinnacle of what I call "abstraction" in jazz. It's a highly intellectual piece. And this is what I, personally, get out of jazz that I can't get out of other genres of music. Suffice to say that I don't have the capacity to play anything by Art Tatum or Cecil Taylor either.

And this is what I, personally, get out of jazz that I can't get out of other genres of music. — Arcane Sandwich

Each to their own :cool:

:up:

@Arcane Sandwich -- you have thoughts on Miles Davis' Bitches Brew album?

That was the first one that popped to mind when reading @Jamal in describing jazz as harsh.

could be. I'm not really into the sort of jazz that Miles Davis does, or the sort of jazz that Thelonious Monk does, for example. I respect them, I sort of "get" what they're doing, but it's just not my cup of tea. I like the more "abstract" and experimental stuff.

I would say that both Coven and Sabbath sound more like Hippie Rock than what we usually think that metal sounds like. In that sense, I would say that Motörhead sounds more metal than both of those bands. — Arcane Sandwich

I'm not that knowledgable about genre, but "hippie rock"? This is just a random comment triggered by this paragraph, but I just had to remember that "Motorhead" (the song) was first a Hawkwind song. I've heard that Lemmie's sound with Hawkwind came from playing the bass as if it was a guitar. Not sure where, and not sure if it's true. You hear a lot of things. It's just that... if Hawkwind isn't "hippie rock", I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Out of curiosity, I've looked over a few top-lists online to see if I even know enough metal albums. Turns out, I know mostly the classics/progenitors (Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Blue Oyster Cult). I sort of feel like I can't make much of a contribution. If I like a metal album, it's probably not very metal - heh. (My favourite Black Sabbath album, for example, is Sabotage. That came up on maybe one list; it's mostly Paranoid, Black Sabbath or Master of Reality, and don't know the latter two).

It's an interesting thread to read. When I have the time, I'll listen through some tracks. (Thanks for Afroman; he's brilliant.)

if Hawkwind isn't "hippie rock", I'm not sure what you're talking about. — Dawnstorm

It's just a convenient label that I made up, though I'm sure other people made it up before me. It's hard to be original. By "Hippe Rock" I just mean bands that sound like Jefferson Airplane, The Mamas and the Papas, Pentangle, etc. Perhaps Folk Rock or Psychedelic Rock might be more appropriate terms.

Out of curiosity, I've looked over a few top-lists online to see if I even know enough metal albums. Turns out, I know mostly the classics/progenitors (Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Blue Oyster Cult). I sort of feel like I can't make much of a contribution. — Dawnstorm

That's already a huge contribution. No one had mentioned Uriah Heep until yet, great band. Blue Öyster Cult was mentioned but we didn't dwell too much on it, I don't know why. Awesome band.

(My favourite Black Sabbath album, for example, is Sabotage. That came up on maybe one list; it's mostly Paranoid, Black Sabbath or Master of Reality, and don't know the latter two). — Dawnstorm

All of them are decent albums. I'm not much of a Sabbath fan to be honest. Given the choice, I prefer other stuff in the world of metal.

(Thanks for Afroman; he's brilliant.) — Dawnstorm

Afroman is amazing, both as a comedian and as a musician.

It's just a convenient label that I made up, though I'm sure other people made it up before me. It's hard to be original. By "Hippe Rock" I just mean bands that sound like Jefferson Airplane, The Mamas and the Papas, Pentangle, etc. Perhaps Folk Rock or Psychedelic Rock might be a more appropriate terms. — Arcane Sandwich

Ah, gotcha. It's all fluid anyway. And I can't say I know Black Sabbath well enough to have much of a view on their sound. A lot would have come out of 60ies psychodelia. That Deep Purple Album that has April on it and that Hieronymus Bosch cover is deeply routed in it. Led Zeppelin is basically blues and folk with more guitars, at least early on. And so on. This makes genre very hard to gauge.

For example, some tracks on Bowies The Man Who Sold the World feel not that much "softer" than the genre stuff at the time (Try: Width of a Circle, Saviour Machine, She Shook me Cold). A lot of it feels like evolved blues.

It's interesting to see how things evolve, sometimes even on one record. Try Alice Cooper's Easy Action, where you get songs like "Shoe Salesman" along with "Still no Air" (which is closer to what he would become).

I also never felt that much of a difference between Born to Be Wild and Smoke on the Water, for example. I probably can hear them when listening for them, but they don't matter in my reception.

My favourite era in music would probably be around 1967 - 1973. A lot was going on, and little was settled.

No one had mentioned Uriah Heep until yet, great band. Blue Öyster Cult was mentioned but we didn't dwell too much on it, I don't know why. Awesome band. — Arcane Sandwich

Hm, the thing is Uriah Heep, to me, doesn't feel like an album-band. I don't have stand-out albums for them. I generally love a few songs on every album, and usually there are no bad songs (Gypsy, Bird of Prey, July Morning, Return to Fantasy...). Maybe it's just hard to choose an album, because of that? Or maybe it's just me who feels that way. Heep came up mostly with "The Magician's Birthday", which surprised me, to be honest. (It's an album I've heard but don't own; I've looked at the track list and can only remember Sweet Lorrain.)

With Blue Oyster Cult, I tend to gravitate towards albums: I like A Fire of Unknown Origin and Imaginos, for example. (There are plenty I don't know.)

Thank you very much for such an intelligent and insightful contribution to this Thread. I've been thinking about the things that you've said, and I've arrived at the following conclusion: as a metalhead, I'm simply not smart enough to offer an engaging reply to your thoughtful and informative post. There's only one sensible thing that I can say here, as a reply. You mentioned that heavy metal as a musical genre isn't exactly your forte (those weren't your actual words, but I believe it was more or less the idea, though I could be wrong). In that sense, I'll share with you what is, to my mind, the most blasphemous song in metal in its entirety. It's so blasphemous that most metalheads completely hate it. I don't. I think it's brilliant. Perhaps you'll find it useful for your anthropological journey into this fascinating musical genre.