Apathy about Zionism. — BitconnectCarlos

Alright. :up:

President Donald Trump said Tuesday that the US “will take over” the Gaza Strip, after saying earlier that he doesn’t think there is a permanent future for Palestinians in Gaza.

“The US will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it too,” Trump said during a joint press conference alongside his Israeli counterpart Benjamin Netanyahu. “We’ll own it and be responsible for dismantling all of the dangerous unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site, level the site and get rid of the destroyed buildings.”

Asked whether he was willing to send US troops to fill a security vacuum in Gaza, Trump did not rule it out.

“As far as Gaza is concerned, we’ll do what is necessary. If it’s necessary, we’ll do that. We’re going to take over that piece that we’re going to develop it,” he said. — CNN

The Stable Genius argues that the Palestinians are very happy to leave since nobody wants to live in a pile of rubble. Obviously, the Israelis can't possibly want to live in a pile of rubble either. That leaves only one solution: U.S. annexation, building beach resorts, golf courses and another beautiful Trump Tower. Having single handedly solved the Palestinian Problem, President Trump seeks to reassure Bibi that solving the region's residual Jewish Problem can wait for later.

Let’s take over Gaza, turn it into a paradise of development— and ask all the Palestinians to leave. What can go wrong?

Better start calling it the MAGA strip. :cheer:

Sinwar would be rolling in his grave. :rofl:

Let’s take over Gaza, turn it into a paradise of development— and ask all the Palestinians to leave. What can go wrong? — Mikie

To be fair, the Orange Menace also clarified that big beautiful towns will be built to accommodate the Palestinians, thereby removing any incentive for them to return to Gaza—a place that has been such bad luck for them. Those big beautiful towns will be build "through a massive amounts(sic) of money supplied by other people, very rich nations. And they're willing to supply it."

Trump's Mideast Envoy Forced Netanyahu to Accept a Gaza Plan He Repeatedly Rejected

Too early to celebrate, but the implications of this will be major if it sticks. — Tzeentch

And... as it turns out, it was too early to celebrate.

FAFO Hamas. :fire: :party:

It began with them going from house to house murdering, raping, and torturing their neighbors. It ended with them losing their land. Divine justice.

Wickedness sows the seeds of its own destruction. Trump saw the 10/7 footage.

Wickedness sows the seeds of its own destruction. Trump saw the 10/7 footage. — BitconnectCarlos

Trump also saw the rubble pile 60,000 Palestinian civilians have been burred under. Did he cheer this act of Divine retribution as much as he had cheered the assault on the U.S. Capitol? I bet he was just utterly indifferent.

Let's see what happens first.

The idea that Trump would send American troops to carry out 'the final solution' in Gaza sounds far-fetched to me. It would be a global diplomatic disaster. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to first push Netanyahu to a cease-fire.

If actions are undertaken to make this a reality, then we'll know. Until then I think this could just as well be Trump pandering to the Israeli extremists and the lobby.

In a way, it is good that Trump is putting it on the table. There are a lot of parties, in Europe for example, who are still trying to deny the gravity of what is happening in Gaza. With Trump openly talking about ethnic cleansing, there will be no more denials and all of these parties must openly proclaim on which side of history they wish to put themselves.

To put it in another way: Trump just made it plain for all to see that this is not about Hamas, but about the forced deportation of 2,000,000 Palestinians and the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

To put it in another way: Trump just made it plain for all to see that this is not about Hamas, but about the forced deportation of 2,000,000 Palestinians and the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. — Tzeentch

And let's not forget that also in this case certain Westerners can blame the Palestinian victims for ALL/MOST/MAIN of it as much as certain Westerners blame the Ukrainian victims for the Russian aggression, genocide and cleansing of Ukrainians.

And the genocide lovers applaud. :lol:

The idea that Trump would send American troops to carry out 'the final solution' in Gaza sounds far-fetched to me. It would be a global diplomatic disaster. It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to first push Netanyahu to a cease-fire. — Tzeentch

He was on the brink of starting a global trade war a day earlier before chickening out so I don't think anything is far-fetched.

Pushing for a ceasefire makes sense if you want to use the land as real estate property which is something that Trump's son in law has suggested in the past. Of course we could also not rule out that he doesn't know what he's doing either.

To put it in another way: Trump just made it plain for all to see that this is not about Hamas, but about the forced deportation of 2,000,000 Palestinians and the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. — Tzeentch

Not that I think it will do much since his election has shown that nothing really matters anymore, but at least people can stop pretending.

Anyways to borrow your phrasing it will be big if it sticks.

It's Trump's, so I wouldn't put a goal of forcibly deporting people past him, but why exactly is it bad, unthinkable genocide to allow Gazans to leave Gaza? Why is migration the solution to so many other wars (if people prefer to leave), and indeed "countries have a duty to take refugees," but it is instead "genocide" if Gazans are given the option for resettlement? It certainly isn't in virtue of what is best for Gazans.

Because I imagine many do want to leave. It seems obvious that many would have left Gaza if Egypt hadn't used its military to make sure they couldn't flee. It seems obvious that they wouldn't necessarily be eager to return.

Gaza is in ruins. Hamas was deeply unpopular before the war. Hamas took power in a violent coup and has ruled through depression, torture, and disappearances ever since. They started the war, with it's fairly obvious consequences for Gaza's residents, planning entirely in secret. Then, after provoking what was sure to be a massive response, they largely fled to hide rather than attempting to defend the Strip and its people: "not my problem." They even compounded the problem by, at least in some cases, using civilians and critical infrastructure/aid as a screen.

Since they were able to shepherd their strength by largely refusing to fight in the war they started, it seems they will maintain an iron grip on power. Shouldn't people be allowed to leave if they want.

I get why Hamas hates the plan. It's the same calculus that led them to try to stop people from fleeing combat areas. But forcing people to stay, blocking aid for resettlement and keeping them out by force, in the name of long term political aims, is incredibly cynical.

I think this becomes obvious in any other situation. Consider:

"Europe should not let in any Syrian refugees or give those who attempt to flee Syria any aid. Indeed, we should pen them in by force because if they leave Assad will get what he wants ."

"No one should take the Arab world's Jews as refugees because doing so would help the Arabs ethically cleanse Jews from across the region, where they have lived for thousands of years." Now here, the native population in question was entirely cleansed, whereas it seems very unlikely that all Gazans would leave. These communities are all gone. Was it in those people's best interest to have had foreign powers block their flight or deny them refugee status, to park soldiers at the border to keep them in?

Or consider: "We mustn't let ethnic minorities flee Afghanistan because it will be giving the Taliban what they want." Or "Germans must stay in Eastern Europe and face the pogroms because if they all flee there won't be Germans in Eastern Europe." Well, 10-14 million Germans were ethnically clenesed, but it's far from obvious that being forced to stay was the better solution.

Particularly abhorrent is the idea that members of the Palestinian diaspora who have successfully fled would want others "locked in" because they have to "defend the land."

The first question is: who is going to drive out Hamas? Israel tried and failed. Are the Americans going to do it for them? If you put aside for a moment how completely absurd that would be, it's not even clear whether the Americans would succeed.


First you'd have to prove that the Gazans actually want to leave. The closest thing they have to a representative body is Hamas, and Hamas clearly isn't leaving voluntarily. If there were to ever be a representative body that is open to the idea, negotiations would have to follow, mutually agreed-upon terms, etc.

Until that happens, this is ethnic cleansing, and for Egypt or Jordan to open their borders to "take in refugees" would amount to nothing less than complicity in Israel's crimes against humanity.

↪Count Timothy von Icarus First you'd have to prove that the Gazans actually want to leave. The closest thing they have to a representative body is Hamas, and Hamas clearly isn't leaving voluntarily. If there were to ever be a representative body that is open to the idea, negotiations would have to follow, mutually agreed-upon terms, etc.

Until that happens, this is ethnic cleansing, and for Egypt or Jordan to open their borders to "take in refugees" would amount to nothing less than complicity in Israel's crimes against humanity

Hamas isn't close to a representative body. They didn't even win a majority of the vote in the one election they participated in held two decades ago. They seized power by force and have kept it by force.

By this logic, Assad should have had the say over whether Syrians could leave Syria. Was it "genocide" when Turkey and the EU allowed Syrians to enter? Likewise, Hitler would have the final say over whether Jews were allowed to leave Germany? And it was genocide when the US or UK accepted Jews?

This is frankly, ridiculous reasoning. Allowing refugees refuge in your country is not genocide.

Also, consider how bizarre Hamas' position is. Gaza is an open air prison. They claim to be fighting for the prisoners. A key demand in their negotiations is that no one be allowed to leave the prison.

Hamas isn't close to a representative body. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Well, you'll somehow have to prove the Gazans actually want to leave. And "I imagine that they do" is obviously not sufficient.

In order to even offer the possibility of refugee status you have to prove people want it?

I can point to millennia of human history. When a city is under siege, when it is under modern bombardment, most civilians flee. This happens everywhere. This is what happened in Northern Gaza despite Hamas' pleas and efforts to trap people in. Why did no one flee Gaza? Because they couldn't. Because they had the IDF on one side and the Egyptian military on the other.

If no one wants to leave Gaza, why does Egypt need walls and a heavy military presence all around the border? If no one wants to leave, in what sense is it a prison?

I mean, if you give people the option to leave and they don't take it, fine. Locking them in and then saying "prove they even want to leave (but also, no, they absolutely cannot)."

Ridiculous.

Palestinians did leave, in vast numbers, when they were allowed to (e.g. Jordan and Lebanon). Living your entire life as a pawn in someone else's military aspirations isn't everyone's goal.

In order to even offer the possibility of refugee status you have to prove people want it? — Count Timothy von Icarus

You're not talking about 'the possibility of refugee status'. What you're talking about is opening the border and letting Gazans leave 'voluntarily' at the end of a rifle barrel, then call them refugees to disguise the fact that what is actually happening is ethnic cleansing.

You're not talking about 'the possibility of refugee status'. What you're talking about is opening the border and letting Gazans leave 'voluntarily' at the end of a rifle barrel, then call them refugees to disguise the fact that what is actually happening is ethnic cleansing.

No I'm not. I am talking about them being able to leave if they want. They are currently not allowed to leave if they want. Hamas demands that they not be allowed to leave if they want.

Egypt will not even let people in temporarily to transit to other countries. Gaza is not the only major urban war to produce essentially no refugees because "no one wants to leave." That assertion is ridiculous on many levels, not least because force was used to keep people in.

Even if Israel had started the war, even if they had started it as a naked act of conquest, Egypt would not be justified in sealing off any escape route and telling women and children "sorry, we can't let you flee the active combat zone, that would be genocide you see."

Gaza is not the only major urban war to produce essentially no refugees because "no one wants to leave." That assertion is ridiculous on many levels, not least because force was used to keep people in. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I never made the assertion that "no one wants to leave". It's up to you to prove that they do, uncoerced (Yea, good luck with that.), if you want this to be anything other than ethnic cleansing.

Even if it was openly declared ethnic cleansing, your position would still be abhorrent. "Oh hey, watch out, that invading army wants to engage in mass slaughter and rape. Nope, I cannot let you cross the border to flee. That would be genocide."

It's patently ridiculous. Caging people in with ethnic cleansers to "prevent ethnic cleansing," genius.

I'm not the one who is trying to make ethnic cleansing work, Mr. Abhorrent.

The first question is: who is going to drive out Hamas? Israel tried and failed. Are the Americans going to do it for them? If you put aside for a moment how completely absurd that would be, it's not even clear whether the Americans would succeed. — Tzeentch

If people have been asking questions like this, we wouldn't be in this mess.

You're claiming people have a moral obligation to pen women and children in with people attempting to genocide them. I don't see how that stops ethnic cleansing from working. Essentially, you are relying solely on the restraint of the people engaged in ethnic cleansing to fix the situation for you, since you won't let people remove themselves from the situation.

BTW, here is a story on people giving their life savings to get smuggled out of Gaza.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/jan/08/palestinians-flee-gaza-rafah-egypt-border-bribes-to-brokers

You can also find plenty of video of people pleading to leave. Apparently though, it would have been immoral not to keep them corralled in an active war zone.

You're claiming people have a moral obligation to pen women and children in with people attempting to genocide them. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I didn't claim any such thing.

Stop trying to deflect from the fact that you're trying to make ethnic cleansing work.

Ah, so see, countries should accept Gazan refugees! And they should be able to rely upon all the other services that Syrian, Afghan, etc. refugees can. Glad we agree.

Claiming that "Isreal is engaged in genocide" does not help the case for "no one should be allowed to leave Gaza or aided in doing so.". It's a perverse logic that says "aiding people who flee a genocide is abetting genocide."

But of course, I know the Hamas apologist logic here. "No, they cannot be allowed to seek shelter, because their deaths will be a boon to Hamas' political ends, as will their misery, and the cover they provide is a military necessity."

Ah, so see, countries should accept Gazan refugees! — Count Timothy von Icarus

That's up to countries themselves to decide.

No country is under any obligation to make itself complicit in Israel's crimes against humanity.

You're trying to shift Israel's responsibility for its crimes to others.

Glad we agree. — Count Timothy von Icarus

We definitely don't agree.

So apparently countries accepting Tutsis refugees were complicit in Hutu's genocide of the Tutsis.

Remember, Gaza is a prison and a concentration camp. But they must not leave! :lol: