• neomac
    1.6k
    ↪neomac
    Stop making it personal dimwit.
    Benkei

    No more personal than the comments of other dimwits, right?

    ↪BitconnectCarlos
    Grow a conscious instead of rationalising crimes all the time.
    Benkei
  • Benkei
    8.1k
    Right after he made it personal twice. So yes, another dimwit. You're in dumb company as usual.
  • neomac
    1.6k
    ↪neomac
    Right after he made it personal twice. So yes, another dimwit. You're in dumb company as usual.
    Benkei

    Dude, make it personal is your favorite move EVERY TIME you disagree with people on topics that trigger your dimwit moral sensitivity.
  • Tzeentch
    4.2k
    It's almost as though the Americans are doing that thing they always do.

    Whoever saw that coming?

    Should I rename myself to Nostradamus?

    So many questions.
  • ssu
    9.4k
    Hegseth just threw Ukraine under the bus. Who needs enemies when there's the USA?Benkei

    On another note... When someone pushes for peace, not by stopping the attacker, but by stopping the defender, then something's amiss.jorndoe

    Well, there has been always the possibility that Trump will fuck it up as he did with the surrender deal to the Taleban where he did through Afghanistan (and other allies like NATO) under the bus. (Yet in truth he needed Biden to finish up it to be a total catastrophe, so Trump isn't there the only one to blame.) The worst case is that general Kellog, who would be a competent negotiator, is pushed aside and Trump wants to "be in charge" of the negotiations. And then we will get something as the idiotic braindead Mar-a-Gaza . Putin knows how to stroke Trumps ego well enough (with saying the lie that with Trump he wouldn't have invaded Ukraine).

    Yet that's a possibility still, not what has already happened. But surely a thing that the pro-Russian Putin supporters will drool on.

    Already Trump is giving away the bargaining chips and the fact is that Russia would negotiate in earnest for a peace/ceasefire deal only when there would be the possibility of military defeat. Otherwise it's a negotiation of getting something they couldn't otherwise win. In any other situation, the war continues and Putin doesn't give a shit about negotiations.

    The fact is that Russia is very limited in it's capability to make large scale attacks into Ukraine. Ukraine can hang on. That is of course, if Ukraine gets military support.

    More reason for Europe to really wake up.

    Yet that it's a new situation is obvious. New situation, new ideas:



  • jorndoe
    4k
    :D

    Canada, Japan, South Korea, Ukraine, to join extended EU, and form defense alliance which includes Greenland (and California) — now the largest democratic cooperative around — hypothetical news headline
  • ssu
    9.4k
    What really doesn't sound good is idiot Trump meeting Putin in Saudi-Arabia. Guess next he'll meet with Putin in the US. Because, why not.

    U.S. President Donald Trump said Wednesday he expects to see his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin in Saudi Arabia for their first meeting since the Republican took office.

    Trump made the remarks following an almost 90-minute phone conversation with Putin in which the two leaders discussed ending Moscow’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

    “We ultimately expect to meet. In fact, we expect that he'll come here, and I'll go there, and we're gonna meet also probably in Saudi Arabia the first time, we'll meet in Saudi Arabia, see if we can get something something done,”

    Actually a great move from the Saudi leadership. What do they care about European problems, but likely with this move they appease enough Trump, because hell no they will do anything on the braindead Trump suggestion of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians added with seaside property development. So better to give a stage for Trump to think about something else.

    At worst, Trump's going to fuck this up too like he did with the Taleban. I fear it's going to be like in Helsinki last time. Then it really was like the Soviet leader (Putin) meeting the leader of East Germany or some satellite nation of the Soviet Union. It was so crazy and the craziness just deepens.

    — hypothetical news headlinejorndoe
    Trump really should think about selling California. All those Democrats leaving the Union would be absolutely great for him! All those liberals with their DEI stuff, ugh! All good Republicans have already moved to Texas, so why not? California just has brush fires and nasty democrats. A Great Deal for Trump!

    But seriously. There really is the possibility we can witness the self-inflicted collapse of the last Superpower. Basically European countries doing first what France did and then simply NATO and the Atlantic tie is between Canada and the EU. And then NATO is something like CENTO or SEATO. Sounds absolutely crazy, but we live in crazy times.
  • Christoffer
    2.4k
    now the largest democratic cooperative around — hypothetical news headline

    It’s a nice idea. Rather than a geographic union, form a union based on how corrupt or non-corrupt a democracy you have. Democracies with low corruption go into a union of free trade, military securities etc.

    Essentially a union around modern and better values than corrupt criminal states and an ability to block them out until they prove themselves worthy enough to be part of it.
  • Mikie
    7.1k
    Maybe Trump, in his own moronic way, stumbles to putting an end to the war that the US both instigated and prolonged. I doubt it, but who knows?
  • ssu
    9.4k
    Doubt would be good here. Look at how brilliantly it well the peace deal he made in Afghanistan went. Then also the Republic of Afghanistan was totally sidelined and truly given a stab in the back. And btw some Afghans that worked for the US and did get the chance to flee Taleban rule might now be sent back to Afghanistan.

    Afghans who fled their home country after the Taliban’s return to power in 2021 are pleading for the United States to reconsider a decision cancelling all existing refugee resettlement efforts.

    On Wednesday, reactions continued to pour in against an executive order Trump had signed two days prior, on his first day in office.That order called for the suspension of the US Refugee Admissions Program (USRAP), which processes refugees for resettlement in the country, starting on January 27. All applications and arrivals through the programme have likewise been suspended.

    But the sudden halt to USRAP has left Afghan refugees — many already approved to enter the US — in limbo, facing instability and the threat of violence.
    At least the last time the US lost a war, it didn't send back South Vietnamese refugees to the Communists. But that was then and now it's different with Trump.
  • Punshhh
    3k
    Maybe Trump, in his own moronic way, stumbles to putting an end to the war that the US both instigated and prolonged. I doubt it, but who knows?
    Although I am dead against the war and was shocked when Putin invaded. I realise that it was a fatal strategic error for Putin. His army is now depleted in arms and feet on the ground. His economy in tatters and all the lucrative energy deals with Europe ended. He is far less a potential threat to Europe and the West than he was before the war.

    There is a longer background of US involvement here, I know.
  • neomac
    1.6k
    Conflicts can be a major factor in shaping the balance of power between countries. Wishing for peace and engaging in blame games are the favorite pastimes of powerless, self-entitled nobodies who find comfort in thumb-sucking one another, apparently and unfortunately even in a philosophy forum. It’s quite disgusting to watch, as it showcases one’s intellectual and morale decay. Indeed, these nobodies contribute to the very problems the West is facing. They serve as evidence of Western decline to anti-Western leaders, making them easy to exploit and sow division. And these dimwits are celebrating like castaways lost in a sea full of ravenous big sharks which are coming for them.
    Trump needs Russia on his side to counter-balance China (precisely because Russia has turned into some China's puppet, to put it bluntly, which thing even Putin must not enjoy very much). We are moving within a logic of division by sphere of influence among great powers on steroids. And for the lovers of universal human rights hypocrisy of the West, Trump will likely fully abandon the rhetoric of human rights and rely more on nationalism and religious fanatics inside and outside the US. They do not give a shit about universal human rights and they are ready to embrace arms to defend their land and their interests.
    Trump may pursue peace at the price of sacrificing Western values and international justice (in Ukraine as in Palestine), at the expense of World order where Europeans have so far politically, culturally and economically prospered.
  • Benkei
    8.1k
    Nice projection. I have not taken you seriously since your idiotic replies about my purported "holiness", which was you that started to make it personal.
  • neomac
    1.6k
    I have no pity for you. Stop begging for attention.
  • Benkei
    8.1k
    Lmao. Pity? You've demonstrated to be generally incapable of the emotion so obviously I wasn't expecting it.
  • Benkei
    8.1k
    Well, there has been always the possibility material risk that Trump will fuck it up as he did with the surrender deal to the Taleban where he did through Afghanistan (and other allies like NATO) under the bus.ssu

    Fixed it for you. This was rather obvious. And we already have the first post defending it. Excellent. I give the UN another 10 years at most after which it will have become irrelevant in its entirety due to the continuous undermining of it.

    EDIT: to expand on my take.

    Trump has thrown Ukraine under the bus, that much is clear. Yet many people still don’t seem to fully grasp the consequences. This deosn't seem to be, as is often the case, a conflict between America and Europe; but appears to be a fundamental rupture.

    Trump wants to keep Europeans outside of the discussions. Exact motivations are difficult to ascertain considering his erratic behaviour. Being seen as a ‘peacemaker’ and cheap rare earth materials have been mentioned. But in reality, he is saddling Europe, as well as the international community, with enormous problems.

    The first immediate problem is: how do you prevent Ukraine from collapsing if American support disappears? Ukraine needs a lot of weapons—and very quickly. The loss of Ukraine would have catastrophic consequences not just for Europe but for the entire world.

    Meanwhile, Trump’s followers seem to idolize him, but he is proving to be an exceptionally weak leader and a shitty negotiator. He's given away Ukraine territory and NATO membership before negotiations have even started. Seriously? He should have simply begun negotiations—not handed everything over right away. It increasingly looks like Putin has kompromat on Trump - as was already raised by you in the first term.

    The international order as we know it has, in a sense, been blown up. The reliability and credibility of America’s word are now worthless, and as a result, the credibility of Article 5 has also been severely damaged. People are starting to consider their own form of MAD (mutually assured destruction). Many treaties, especially the Non-Proliferation Treaty, are now under heavy pressure.

    Moreover, other dictators are realizing that by possessing nuclear weapons, they can attack neighboring countries as long as they threaten to use them enough. There will always be a Western leader willing to reward them for it. This effectively erodes the existing world order that had been in place since 1945. It will still exist on paper, but in reality, the law of the strongest and the shifting of borders will happen more frequently.

    And if people think, "Well, it’s just Ukraine," then I think we need to remember that in December 2021, Russia issued an ultimatum demanding the withdrawal of NATO troops from Eastern Europe. That demand will return, which is why people must insist on having a seat at the table. This is the greatest betrayal of the United States since the Tehran and Yalta conferences and the fate of Poland.
  • neomac
    1.6k
    ↪neomac
    Lmao. Pity? You've demonstrated to be generally incapable of the emotion so obviously I wasn't expecting it.
    Benkei

    Thanks for the compliment. A part from the fact that speaking one's mind can hurt feelings more than comfort them, right? Again we are in a philosophy forum, right? And to me philosophy has NOTHING to do with whining over people's tragedies, blame gaming and acting as a moral tribunal (don't tell me you do not you love repeatedly accuse others of being genocide/cleansing/apartheid apologists?) and call this emotional reaction "critical thinking" while giving for granted ones' framing assumptions about statehood, human rights, national self-determination, moral standards, political business and propaganda, original appropriation, international order as they apply to concrete cases like the Ukrainian or Palestinian conflict. ONLY if you agree with me on all I've just wrote and argue on topics even hot political topics more philosophically than politically or emotionally I can intellectually respect your posts.
  • Benkei
    8.1k
    As usual a dumb post. Go away, mate.

    Edit: to clarify, rhetorical questions are dumb.
  • neomac
    1.6k
    if you want me to go away, you have to ban me, Holy Benkei. I do not enjoy being part of a philosophy forum that doesn't allow me to practice philosophy as much as you enjoy littering it by showing off your moralist ego, whining over people's tragedies, blame gaming and acting as a moral tribunal (don't tell me you do not you love repeatedly accuse others of being genocide/cleansing/apartheid apologists?) .
  • neomac
    1.6k
    Edit: to clarify, rhetorical questions are dumb.Benkei

    Not more than your rhetorical objection
  • Tzeentch
    4.2k
    The loss of Ukraine would have catastrophic consequences not just for Europe but for the entire world.Benkei

    I think it's quite the opposite.

    The Americans making a mea culpa over the Ukraine debacle is a precondition to return to stability in Eastern Europe, which the Russians have been signaling is what they are interested in ever since the war began.

    All of this nonsense about the Russians coming for Berlin and 'dictators sharpening their (nuclear) sabres' comes from desperate European politicians who, just like the neocons, are on the verge of being ousted together with their rotten cliques. They would love nothing more than a sense of crisis to help them cling to power.
  • Benkei
    8.1k
    Aggression has just been rewarded. I don't see in what world that's a good thing. That the USA/NATO fucked up in the lead up to the Ukraine war (twice) doesn't mean they are doing the right thing now.

    I don't ban people for being dumb or having morally abject opinions. If you don't enjoy it, you're welcome to leave.
  • Tzeentch
    4.2k
    Aggression has just been rewarded.Benkei

    I don't think aggression is the proper term for it. The Russians initiated the use of military force, but there had been a conflict brewing for a long time before that, during which they attempted numerous times to settle it diplomatically.

    If you want to call that aggression that's fine, but in that case I would argue sometimes it is good for countries to draw a line in the sand in the face of a blatant disregard for their security interests.

    In the end, all that really happened is that Russia made the West respect its red lines. Like I said, I don't think the proper term for that is 'rewarding aggression'.
  • Benkei
    8.1k
    There's no definition of aggression where forcefully taking another country's land isn't aggression. There's no justification for it, only explanation. That we can explain their actions from a real politik perspective doesn't make it morally right.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    That we can explain their actions from a real politik perspective doesn't make it morally right.Benkei

    Well said.
  • neomac
    1.6k
    ↪neomac
    I don't ban people for being dumb or having morally abject opinions. If you don't enjoy it, you're welcome to leave.
    Benkei


    The bad news for you is that I actually enjoy doing philosophy, unlike you. And being like 'the gadfly that pricks the old horse' fits perfectly with my philosophical disposition. So, I’ll keep pricking.

    By the way, I find myself agreeing more with your post than with Tzeench. However, when it comes to negotiations, we should not confuse what’s said in public channels with what’s said behind closed doors. And public claims often serve as diplomatic maneuvers targeting the masses in one way and targeting political interlocutors in another. Ukraine needs to be stabilized and secure if the US wants to do business with it—whether that’s exploiting natural resources or building real estate and infrastructure (the famous hypercapitalist exploitation you enjoy whining about along with your self-entitled fellows). The interest in doing business with Ukraine implies that the US may have reasons to stay and protect American assets in Ukraine (which could have otherwise been fully Ukrainian or, even, European). So, Trump can exploit the benefits of this conflict, burdening the European ‘hoompa loompas’ who, according to some Western imbeciles, were serving US interests so well that Trump feels now so much the need to punish them economically, politically, and militarily. Meanwhile, he might cozy up to Putin to turn him away from China by negotiating over Ukraine. But we’ll see who is really fooling whom—Putin or Trump.
    The idiots (pardon, maximum experts on "realism") will think 'the Americans making a mea culpa' (another moralistic judgment so much praised by in the “realist theory”), while Trump and Putin just blame everything on the Biden administration and the American deep state. Trump doesn’t admit mistakes easily, especially when he can shift the blame onto others. On the other hand, Ukraine will still serve to keep the rift between Russia and Europe alive, especially a divided Europe. This is what the idiotic Westerners celebrate as a 'return to stability in Eastern Europe' and 'all that really happened is that Russia made the West respect its red lines' (What about the Western red lines that Russia should respect, realists?).
    These fools (pardon, maximum experts in propaganda) don’t even understand the ‘realism’ they think they’re supporting when they claim 'the Russians have been signaling what they’re interested in ever since the war began,' as if real politics or political realism are about the whims of a Russian dictator when Russia is weak and the West is WAY TOO GENEROUS toward them. Or worse, like when they dismiss 'all this nonsense about Russians coming for Berlin' and 'dictators sharpening their (nuclear) sabres,' as if nuclear threats from Russian authorities weren’t a MAJOR ARGUMENT, spun by pro-Russians with the intent to scare Western public opinion and undermine Western deterrence.
    But where you continually and especially show intellectual cowardice and hypocrisy is in your refusal to dig into the relationship between moral aspirations and power, between moral justification and historical/political explanation. Instead, you just repeat it dogmatically and insult anyone who questions it, as if parroting it somehow replaces a good argument that would ground such distinctions—distinctions that you take as self-evident, like prophets take their religious visions. Questioning it would be blasphemy.
  • neomac
    1.6k
    Trump has thrown Ukraine under the bus, that much is clear. Yet many people still don’t seem to fully grasp the consequences.Benkei

    And you are among these people, because what Trump is doing is less erratic than what you think, here is why https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/963479
  • neomac
    1.6k
    I give the UN another 10 years at most after which it will have become irrelevant in its entirety due to the continuous undermining of it.Benkei

    The UN project (which is originally an American project) was more likely to succeed if all countries turned more democratic and respectful of universal human rights standards. But it didn't happen because non-Western authoritarian regimes so decided, right?
    The cheap/spoiled moralism of many Westerners accusing the American imperialism of hypocrisy and undermining International institutions can now enjoy American imperialism without hypocrisy and constraining international institutions. This is the great improvement Western moralists and idealists (and self-entitled realists) were DE FACTO "working for" so hard (with the blessing of Russia, China and Iran), precisely because Western moralists and idealists (and self-entitled realists) do not get the link between power and morality. It's much more easy to rely on hard power than to rely on soft power. Discrediting the American soft power and depicting the US as the Great Satan won't make Western self-entitled nobodies' moral wishes come true, it may actually bring about the opposite. This is a silly expectation of spoiled Westerners, especially spoiled Europeans, which they have to pay for. Bitterly.
  • Tzeentch
    4.2k
    I'm not trying to morally justify Russia's actions.

    Boiling it down to 'aggression was rewarded' seems to miss the fact that there was a lengthy geopolitical power struggle. It would be more apt to say that political/soft power aggression was met with military/hard power aggression and a war ensued.

    Is the use of soft power better than the use of hard power? Maybe so, but when the United States is the belligerent, soft power has the capability of altering the fate of nations (and is no longer so 'soft').

    Maybe 'aggression was rewarded', but the US was also shown there is indeed a limit to how far other nations let themselves be pushed around. Considering the US is the most aggressive, destructive nation on the planet, perhaps that is some good with the bad?
  • BitconnectCarlos
    2.6k
    I've been mostly pro-Ukraine and anti-Russia, but I'm now quite relieved that Trump seems to be de-escalating and relations appear to be slightly warming with Russia. Russia has released 1 or 2 American prisoners. I have no issue with Ukraine defending their borders, but it was getting quite expensive for us here in the US. I don't mind if Europe picks up the slack on the funding. The conflict seems fairly far removed from us here in the US.

    If Mexico or Canada were to join an anti-US alliance or if Russia were to station its troops in either of those two border countries it would be alarming so their concern is understandable. Europe should be able to hand this one.
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