These are abnormalities, not the norm. The same can be said about being gay or trans. We can always find exceptions to the norm in pretty much everything, but this doesn't take away from the fact that there are norms and that we owe our specie's continued existence to the norm. These conditions don't mean that they should be categorized as a separate sex or gender. They are simply mutations that crop up as a result of faulty gene copying and one's upbringing. We don't categorize other people as normal based on them missing toes or fingers, being born conjoined, or any other abnormality that one can be born with, and we even attempt to fix people born with abnormalities. What makes one's sex/gender abnormality different? — Harry Hindu
We don't categorize other people as normal based on them missing toes or fingers, being born conjoined, or any other abnormality that one can be born with, and we even attempt to fix people born with abnormalities. What makes one's sex/gender abnormality different?
First off, sexual preferences (gay, straight, homosexual, lesbian) are neither a gender identification nor a physical sexual feature of the body. These individuals identify gender wise (usually) with their bodily physical sexual characteristic, there is just a sexual behavioral preference.
I do not wish to imply sexual preferences or gender identity are entirely a matter of conscious choice but instead they have to do with deep seated subconscious emotional drives and preferences.
I used the term "psychological state" as a factor in both gender identity and sexual behavioral preference and that was attacked but I have yet to see a viable alternative.
I still use "psychological" until someone offers a better terminology
No, I've said many times since I've made it clear that sexuality is both psychological and physiological. — John Harris
Gender isn't a psychological "state.
But this is on the understanding that changes of brain state at a certain level of subtlety below gross trauma are called 'psychological'.
This isn't true at all. Where exactly did you learn this? — John Harris
No, I've said many times since I've made it clear that sexuality is both psychological and physiological.
— John Harris
Gender isn't a psychological "state.
But what you haven't said at all, despite many polite requests, is what you mean by 'psychological'.
And it is proper to include physical changes or effect-causing elements in the brain as part of physiology, since that is different than discussing psychological thought. I'm surprised you didn't know that.
But this is on the understanding that changes of brain state at a certain level of subtlety below gross trauma are called 'psychological'.
This isn't true at all. Where exactly did you learn this?
— John Harris
I learned it while at university studying psychology. Where did you learn the opposite?
With caution and trepidation (heated reactions out there) may I mildly suggest that 58 gender options is bullshit. — Bitter Crank
wikiSocially constructed gender roles are considered to be hierarchical, and are characterized as a male-advantaged gender hierarchy by social constructionists.[24] The term patriarchy, according to researcher Andrew Cherlin, defines "a social order based on the domination of women by men, especially in agricultural societies".
In another study of gender stereotypes it was found that parents' stereotypes interact with the sex of their child to directly influence the parents' beliefs about the child's abilities. In turn, parents' beliefs about their child directly influence their child's self-perceptions, and both the parents' stereotypes and the child's self-perceptions influence the child's performance.[111]
Stereotype threat is being at risk of confirming, as self-characteristic, a negative stereotype about one's group.[112] In the case of gender it is the implicit belief in gender stereotype that women perform worse than men in mathematics, which is proposed to lead to lower performance by women.[113]
A recent review article of stereotype threat research related to the relationship between gender and mathematical abilities concluded 'that although stereotype threat may affect some women, the existing state of knowledge does not support the current level of enthusiasm for this [as a] mechanism underlying the gender gap in mathematics'.[114]
In another study, Deaux and her colleagues found that most people think women are more nurturant, but less self-assertive than men. and that this belief is indicated universally, but that this awareness is related to women's role. To put it another way, women do not have an inherently nurturant personality, rather that a nurturing personality is acquired by whoever happens to be doing the housework. — wiki
I never said it didn't.Since when does psychology not include the brain and mind?
The real issue here is whether such behaviors and gender roles are a matter of choice or not.
Gender is a question of desire, which can be literalized. A Transsexual is not limited by a desire.
I think both gender identity and sexual preferences are not free conscious choices but rather have much deeper subconscious correlates (physiologic) and motivations/emotions (psychologic) if one wishes to pretend they are separate categories.
Bitter Crank Can you say something from your experience about the roles of 'butch and 'fem', which I understand are sort of mirror gender roles in the homosexual community? Or am I hopelessly out of date? — unenlightened
Many (most?) people accept the idea that sexual orientation is 'assigned' rather than 'chosen'. I suspect that the affect and style, maybe the public presentation of one's sexuality may also be more assigned rather than chosen. A lot of behaviors are like fetishes -- they seem to be present (in some form) from a very early age, and they seem to be more or less unyielding to change.
I am a little confused about how you are using the word "gender" here, which parts of the body determine gender in your view? Are you separating "gender identity" from "secondary sexual characteristics"?Again, you forget the rest of the body, which are factors in one's gender — John Harris
I guess the question would be assigned by what? Not that anyone knows.Many (most?) people accept the idea that sexual orientation is 'assigned' rather than 'chosen'. — Bitter Crank
Again, you forget the rest of the body, which are factors in one's gender
— John Harris
I am a little confused about how you are using the word "gender" here, which parts of the body determine gender in your view? Are you separating "gender identity" from "secondary sexual characteristics"?
I am also a little confused about why you feel the need to separate "physiologic" from "psychologic" as one seems to always accompany the other?
I guess the question would be assigned by what? Not that anyone knows. — prothero
The term "gender identification" on the other hand is often used to indicate whether one identifies "psychologically" as a male of female
↪John Harris I don't think mental states (feelings, thoughts, emotions) (psychologic) are really separate from brain states (anatomy, physiology). It just depends on which aspect you are emphasizing and which description you employ.. When I talk about psychologic states I assume there is a brain involved, don't you?. ]
"Butch" and "fem" may or may not transfer very well to private sexual behavior. Sometimes the public presentation carries over to the private presentation, and sometimes it is reversed. (And there are all sorts of gradations).
Some guys who are divas at the bar turn out to be pile drivers in bed, and some guys who are toughs on the street turn out to be pussies in bed. (But not always: sometimes the diva and the tough don't switch to opposites.) — Bitter Crank
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