PS

Also, how likely is it that, not only men, but people generally are willing to stand up against the powerful?

Unlikely. — fdrake

I forgot to ask: Why do you think it unlikely? There are many reasons.
No matter...

Seems to me, it is only perspective that can lead to these sorts of rants (not derogatory - anything adequately complete will be a rant in this context). If this were based on 'facts' then your personal feelings wouldn't be relevant. — AmadeusD

I see. An overview of history is insufficient basis for an opinion. OK

While marches may seem futile, they and campaigns are not about losing. They are about fighting for justice and a way to come together - to show we are not alone. — Amity

I have all those teeshirts. The last campaign I supported was a Green; some previous ones were NDP. This riding is solid fake Tory - the Alliance stabbed them in the back and stole their name some decades ago. All my candidates are plucky little losers. I simply meant that the winning streak my generation enjoyed is over; this is the down-slope before the next up, which may be next year or next century or never - I don't know. There is hope, but its heart beats faintly now.

There is hope, but its heart beats faintly now. — Vera Mont

Keep feeding the little winged creatures on your window sill. Stay strong, dear friend. :pray: :flower:

I see. An overview of history is insufficient basis for an opinion. OK — Vera Mont

No, and you would do well not to quip when you've clearly not understood what has been said. We've been here before too, Vera.

No facts or statistics necessary. — Amity

She claimed to have them. There were none. Please re-read the exchange, because you're defending something explicitly stated, as not stated.

To backtrack, Vera was responding to my question: — Amity

I am aware. This is not relevant for the subsequent exchange.

It is derogatory to suggest this is a 'rant'. Not to mention condescending in tone. — Amity

I'm sorry, but you literally quoted me disowning this in explicit terms. It has nothing to do with me if you're either unable to read, or not able to understand. I did my diligence here and wont be held to your internal offense meter.

I also note your response is pointless, and entirely out of pocket. I was talking to Vera. Not you.

So what, if this has been discussed before. It is new to this thread and new readers.
It bears repeating. — Amity

You do not understand, whatsoever, what that line means. Vera does. Because she and I have been here before.

Which is why I'm here. — Amity

Then none of this makes sense. Speak with her.

This is a point in history but not like any other. — Amity

No point in history is like any other. Ironically, histrionics is what has people making these claims. We are not special. Our time is not special.

Nobody is pretending anything. This is a crisis. If you don't recognise that, then so be it. — Amity

No, it isn't. Most people in those threads you mention are absolutely out of their minds on panic and sniffing their own arses. If you cannot see that, so be it. But given I spend time outside of lil political bubbles, and subscribe to no common ideologies, It is clear as day.

Well, like most, we see what we want to see. — Amity

Correct. That is what I have pointed out.

But that is more than I am prepared to do, right now. — Amity

That's fair, but probably best not to broach that then to avoid being charged with being either a diletante or coward. I am not intending to insult - this seems a correct view.

Misogyny is only part of Trump's regressive destruction of rights and justice systems.
Happening right now.
Full throttle.
Without a breath.
It is not a time to step back. But yes, to take a deep breath and step up. In whatever way we can. — Amity

You think a crisis is in full swing. You're bound to say these things. If you could enumerate what rights you're talking about, we can discuss. (Roe v Wade wont go well for anyone arguing that this is a removal of women's rights - it is patently not, unless you consider access to specific medical procedures a human right. If you do, fine. I don't).

No, and you would do well not to quip when you've clearly not understood what has been said. We've been here before too, Vera. — AmadeusD

I might do well not to quip... But I do better, quipping.
I always understand what you mean; I just don't agree with it.

She claimed to have them [statistics]. — AmadeusD

I didn't claim anything; I asked a question: do you have a factual basis for saying that my perspective is wrong? I have piles of facts and statistics, dates and events. I often choose to share them. Didn't seem worth my while this time. You have an opinion. I have a different opinion. I answered Amity's question honestly. Your response was not relevant.

I was talking to Vera. Not you — AmadeusD

I was talking to Amity. Not you. (Didn't even know you were lurking.)

Our time is not special. — AmadeusD

I expect that's pretty much what Romulus Augustulus said, the year before he was deposed.

Most people in those threads you mention are absolutely out of their minds on panic and sniffing their own arses. If you cannot see that, so be it. But given I spend time outside of lil political bubbles, and subscribe to no common ideologies, It is clear as day. — AmadeusD

I got mine, Jack. (for now) Whatever others suffer is no skin off my ass.

So why bother to jump in here?

Hey. I think that it is clear where Amadeus is coming from.

Nobody is pretending anything. This is a crisis. If you don't recognise that, then so be it.
— Amity

No, it isn't. Most people in those threads you mention are absolutely out of their minds on panic and sniffing their own arses. If you cannot see that, so be it. But given I spend time outside of lil political bubbles, and subscribe to no common ideologies, It is clear as day. — AmadeusD

For him, there is no crisis. End of.
Well, not quite.
The description of 'most people' exaggerates and denigrates those expressing their views about the current, unfolding situation. Threads which include people with valid concerns, backed up by their own experience, knowledge and research. I note that this has stimulated some excellent exchanges from a variety of perspectives.

The thread I mentioned earlier (The Musk Plutocracy - @Wayfarer ) - with a recent post answering the question of activism and messaging:

Then why don't the US citizens who don't want this... do something about it?
— Christoffer

An entirely appropriate question.

Massive mobilization (spontaneous / organized) takes time, focus, and energy. Trump began his current maladministration only on 1/20/25--so about 45 days ago. His fast and furious demolition activities affect opponents the same way zebra stripes confuse lions: It's hard to lock on a target. It takes 10 times as much energy to resist the government as the government spends fucking us over [...]
The opposition must "get into every space" -- be it bars, union halls, churches, schools, neighborhood organizations, civic clubs, board rooms, congressional offices, the sidewalks surrounding the White House, the pentagon -- EVERYWHERE. Be polite as necessary, but not more so. Be as forceful as required, and not less so. Hammer the message home, again and again, about the very real damage Donald Trump et al are doing to the body politic and institutions of government... — BC

As before, I would add: Listen to what people are saying about their concerns and problems. Then, act to show you care and will support them, in real terms.
Grass roots intervention.

***

There is a lot to be learned from people who invest their time and energy analysing 'what is going on'. Who care to question, respond and explain.

I am far from being a political heavyweight. Indeed, I have acknowledged my ignorance and limitations previously.

I kept clear of the news for some time, ever since the US election.
However, what is happening now can't be ignored or denied.
My recent threads have been exploratory, as far as I am able, with help and contributions from others.

I expect that most, like me, have other personal matters and interests which take up their time and energy. Nevertheless, it is valuable to talk and listen to shared concerns. We don't always have the place or space.

Thanks and best wishes to all. Take care :sparkle: :flower:

I kept clear of the news for some time, ever since the US electio — Amity

I look at the news every day, but I think it was Emerson -- might have been Thoreau -- who said that reading a newspaper once a month was sufficient. Times have changed so maybe catching up on the news once a week is enough.

I find that a lot of the news that the New York Times sees fit to print is not all that useful. Outrage here, stocks up there, self-obsessed Hollywood remains self-obsessed, war goes badly, the poor getting poorer in lock step with the rich getting richer, etc. Too many zebras to keep track of.

I find the occasional, casual dip into You Tube more informative.
Bonus: if it's too upsetting, you can always switch to Bibi the monkey.

I note that this has stimulated some excellent exchanges from a variety of perspectives. — Amity

You think so... Feel free. It's as bad as Twitter, most of the time. Sure, some great points get made. Generally, not by the posters you are thinking of.

This all said, it is patently clear you take a certain view here, which is decidedly political, and are not quite open to discussions of disagreement. That's also fine, but I prefer not to operate that way. Most people in those threads behave the way i described. Evidenced by their own panicked responses to trivial comments, throughout. Again, that's fine. Not how I would operate, as it doesn't seem to cohere with reality (on my view).

Listen to what people are saying about their concerns and problems. Then, act to show you care and will support them, in real terms. — Amity

I do the former. The latter is then not possible.

There is a lot to be learned from people who invest their time and energy analysing 'what is going on'. Who care to question, respond and explain. — Amity

Generally, not. The majority of these people are diving into a pool of their own creation, and are rarely providing anything by way of novel or interesting insights. Generally, this only happens when one changes 'camps' as it were (which si not always good, granted. Perhaps, in the main, not good. Context matters for that one).

However, what is happening now can't be ignored or denied. — Amity

Well, it can, in the terms presented hereabouts. There's something going on, that's for sure, and I've not suggested otherwise. But claims like this are Kafka traps. Either I agree with you, or i'm ignorant and 'of course you'd say that'. It's not a good faith approach. The fact is, it can be framed completely differently form the panicked, self-referential crap that is bandied about in this forum (and that is simply my view. Not 'the truth' as it seems to be interpreted as - I'm not even that smart, but I respond rather than react which I think is crucial). Analyzing what's going on does not need to always land on the same crash pad.

I can respect people's views, respect the effort their putting in as people, humans, thinkers - and still think the conclusions are batshit (though, that's probably only relevant to a few here - most are pretty switched on, just.. emotionally invested in a way that skews things).

I always understand what you mean — Vera Mont

This is patently untrue. Unless you are also a wilfull troll. That would explain the disparate responses well too.

I have piles of facts and statistics — Vera Mont

There's a big blank space where you claim this. There always is.

I didn't claim anything — Vera Mont

Can you cite where I've gone wrong on facts or statistics? — Vera Mont

Hehe.

Your response was not relevant. — Vera Mont

Yet, here you are. And there's nothing wrong with that, other than noting you've delved into something irrelevant over several hundred words. For what reason, I cannot tell, unless there's something in what I've said.

I expect that's pretty much what Romulus Augustulus said, the year before he was deposed. — Vera Mont

And he was entirely right. The mistake you're intimating here is the exact one I've charged you with. Ironic, but not surprising.

I got mine, Jack. (for now) Whatever others suffer is no skin off my ass. — Vera Mont

Right o. Take care.

There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle. To be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up. — Tony Benn

I forgot to ask: Why do you think it unlikely? There are many reasons. — Amity

People in general will make token gestures but likely won't organise, or otherwise do what is necessary, to change things.

Yes, and I see little reason to doubt that people in general will not vote for anything they think will have a negative effect on their prosperity, aspirations or accustomed lifestyle.

Yes, and I see little reason to doubt that people in general will not vote for anything they think will have a negative effect on their prosperity, aspirations or accustomed lifestyle. — Janus

That's the problem. People believe all kinds things they're told by a notorious liar, and then are dismayed when the outcome is different from the promise. Conversely, when the same notorious liar says exactly what he intends to do and then does it and it turns out exactly as the critics predicted, they look for someone other than the notorious liar to blame.
According to H. L. Mencken:

No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby. The mistake that is made always runs the other way. Because the plain people are able to speak and understand, and even, in many cases, to read and write, it is assumed that they have ideas in their heads, and an appetite for more. This assumption is a folly.

:up: Yep, seems on the money to me!