"the state of being male or female." according to Websters Dictionary, this is "Gender".

"either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions." According to Websters Dictionary, this is "Sex" — Anonymys

I want to go back to the opening post for a moment.
"The state of being male or female". One might presume they are talking about sexual or reproductive organs not gender identity?
"divided on the basis of their reproductive functions" again seems a reference to sexual or reproductive organs not gender identity?

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/11/psychology-transgender.aspx
APA: What is the psychological meaning of the term "transgender"? How is it different from — and related to — the term "sexual orientation"?

Bockting: "Transgender" refers to having a gender identity that differs from one’s sex assigned at birth. "Gender identity" refers to the basic conviction of being a man, woman or other gender (e.g., bigender, genderqueer, gender questioning, gender nonconforming). "Sexual orientation" refers to one’s sexual attraction, sexual behavior and emotional attachments to men, women or both

Bockting: Some transgender people do transition and others do not. Transition is not for everyone. Transition refers to a change in gender role.

The DSM-5 [the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, published by the American Psychiatric Association] no longer lists “gender identity disorder” as a diagnosis but instead refers to “gender dysphoria.” Why and how did this come about, and what is the difference between the two terms?

Bockting: "Gender dysphoria" is a term that reflects more accurately than gender identity disorder when an individual is distressed about a conflict between their sex assigned at birth and their gender identity/role.
END

"sex assigned at birth" with no mention of sexual or reproductive organs? This is inclusive of chromosomal abnormalities and ambiguous or duplicate genitalia and other reproductive organs.

"The state of being male or female". One might presume they are talking about sexual or reproductive organs not gender identity? — prothero

I think this is where a lot of the confusion arises. What exactly does a transgender man mean when he says that he's a man despite not having a penis? I know that @Harry Hindu has claimed that such people have a mental disorder, thinking that they're something they're not. But I think such a claim falsely assumes that the transgender man believes that he has a penis. For the most part, that's false. He recognises that he doesn't have a penis, hence identifying as a transgender man rather than a cisgender man. It must then mean that the transgender man doesn't believe that being a man means having a penis, which makes the accusation of having a mental disorder mistaken. At best you could claim that the transgender man is either misappropriating or misunderstanding the term "man", which really does just mean "a person with a penis", in which case the dispute is a trivial one over proper language use.

So much so, that it is still somewhat controversial to claim that gay men are real men. — unenlightened

And I think this shows that it is too simplistic to claim that being a man just means having a penis, given that accusing people with penises of not being (real) men is something we've all probably heard (along with accusing such people of being women). Clearly we have this notion of manhood and womanhood that isn't reducible to one's sex organs.

I think this is where a lot of the confusion arises. What exactly does a transgender man mean when he says that he's a man despite not having a penis?

He means exactly that: he's a man...regardless of having a penis or ever having one. Many men have been castrated or even had their penises removed through injury, illness, or punishment. That didn't change them into women.

I know that @Harry Hindu has claimed that such people have a mental disorder, thinking that they're something they're not.

This is ugly transphobia, goes against modern medical views of transsexuality, and doesn't deserve re-mentioning.

It must then mean that the transgender man doesn't believe that being a man means having a penis, which makes the accusation of having a mental disorder mistaken.

Not necessarily, since some transgender men actually go through the trans-op process and do feel that is necessary for their manhood. Other transgender men do not.

At best you could claim that the transgender man is either misappropriating or misunderstanding the term "man", which really does just mean "a person with a penis", in which case the dispute is a trivial one over proper language use.

As I've shown this isn't the case at all, and treating transsexuality as a mistake in perception is also transphobic as it treats their sexual selves, sexual identities, and sexualities as just a mistake. They are not misunderstanding or misappropriating anything.

Well language and communication matters.
The major reason I am participating in the thread is to try to improve my use of language in this area.
The difference between Gender and Gender Identity seems to parallel Sex and Sexual Identity in terms of common usage. The loose use of the term gender or gender identity being "determined by the body" is also confusing.

He means exactly that: he's a man. — John Harris

That doesn't explain what he means when he says that he's a man. That just repeats that he says that. The relevant question is "what does it mean to be a man?".

Many men have been castrated or even had their penises removed through injury, illness, or punishment. That didn't change them into women.

I was just being simplistic.

Not necessarily, since some transgender men actually go through the trans-op process and do feel that is necessary for their manhood. Other transgender men do not. — John Harris

My example was of the latter man.

As I've shown this isn't the case at all, and treating transsexuality as a mistake in perception is also transphobic as it treats their sexual selves, sexual identities, and sexualities as just a mistake. — John Harris

I'm not saying that transsexuality is a mistake in perception. I'm saying that the best argument someone like Harry Hindu can make against transgenderism is, for example, that the correct definition of "man" is "has a penis" (again, just being simplistic) and so anyone who doesn't have a penis and who claims to be a man is either misappropriating the term "man" or misunderstands its true meaning.

But as with my reply to unenlightened above, I don't subscribe to the notion that the terms "man" and "woman" are simply references to sexual organs.

That doesn't explain what he means when he says that he's a man. That just repeats that he says that. The relevant question is "what does it mean to be a man?".

No, it doesn't, you asked this specific question and I answered it:

↪Michael
I think this is where a lot of the confusion arises. What exactly does a transgender man mean when he says that he's a man despite not having a penis?

Your question wasn't "what does it mean to be a man" so youre just shifting the goalposts. One doesn't have to have a clear idea of what it means to be a man to confidently make the claim "I am a man." Sometimes they just know they are one and that's all they need.

I'm saying that the best argument someone like Harry Hindu can make against transgenderism is that the correct definition of "man" is "having a penis" and so anyone who doesn't have a penis and who claims to be a man is either misusing the term "man" or misunderstands its true meaning.

No, he can't since that is an incorrect claim and is a terrible argument. The fact you're trying to help a transphobe best phrase his transphobia isn't encouraging in a moderator.

No, it doesn't, you asked this specific question and I answered it: — John Harris

Your question wasn't "what does it mean to be a man" so youre just shifting the goalposts. — John Harris

Asking what someone means when they claim to be a man is asking what it means (to them) to be a man. Coupled with your posts from before, I think you have a literacy problem.

No, he can't since that is an incorrect claim.

I didn't claim it to be correct.

The fact you're trying to help a transphobe best phrase his transphobia isn't encouraging in a moderator.

No I'm not. I'm pointing out that his accusation of a mental disorder is mistaken and that the only case you can make against a transgender person (rightly or wrongly) is that they're misusing gender terms. As I've said, I think that this argument would be wrong because gender terms aren't reducible to sex organs, but I can see why someone might think that they are. Certainly as a child I thought that the terms "male" and "female" just referred to physical features, especially sex organs.

No, it doesn't, you asked this specific question and I answered it:
— John Harris

Your question wasn't "what does it mean to be a man" so youre just shifting the goalposts.
— John Harris

Asking what someone means when they claim to be a man is asking what it means (to them) to be a man. Coupled with your posts from before, I think you have a literacy problem.

No, it isn't. It's asking them what it means to them personally to be a man, not what it means to be a man generally; many don't know or care about that. So, I know--from this post and your past ones--you have a literacy, and a maturity, problem.

The fact you're trying to help a transphobe best phrase his transphobia isn't encouraging in a moderator.

No I'm not. I'm pointing out that his accusation of a mental disorder is mistaken and that the only case you can make against a transgender person (rightly or wrongly) is that they're misusing gender terms.

Of course you are, and you just did it again by saying one could make a case transgered people are misusing gender terms, when that isn't a valid case at all. The fact you think it is reveals some latent--or maybe not latent--transphobia in you as well.

Of course you are, and you just did it again by saying one could make a case transgered people are misusing gender terms, when that isn't a valid case at all. — John Harris

It's valid if the conclusion follows from the premises, which it does. Of course it isn't sound because one of the premises is false. Which is exactly what I've said.

The fact you think it is reveals some latent--or maybe not latent--transphobia in you as well.

A false non sequitur ad hominem.

Of course you are, and you just did it again by saying one could make a case transgered people are misusing gender terms, when that isn't a valid case at all.
— John Harris

It's valid if the conclusion follows from the premises, which it does. Of course it isn't sound because one of the premises is false. Which is exactly what I've said.

No, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, since they aren't misusing gender terms and you haven't shown they have. But thanks for proving what I said about your (not-so-latent) transphobia.

A false non sequitur ad hominem.

Sorry, you can't start crying about ad hominems when you started the slinging of them, yourself. And it was neither false nor a non-sequitur, as your post above proves. And since I don't engage transphobes, I won't be reading any more of your posts, period

Ciao.

No, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, since they aren't misusing gender terms and you haven't shown they have. But thanks for proving what I said about your (not-so-latent) transphobia. — John Harris

P1. "man" means "has a penis".
P2. So-and-so claims to be a man but knows that they don't have a penis.
C. So-and-so is misusing the term "man".

It's valid and the second premise is true. But it isn't sound because the first premise is false.

The fact that you think that the argument isn't valid because the conclusion isn't true shows that you need to (re)visit logic 101.

Sorry, you can't start crying about ad hominems when you started slinging them, yourself. — John Harris

Wasn't crying, was (correctly) accusing.

And it was neither false nor a non-sequitur, as your post above proves.

It's false because I'm not a transphobe. It's a non sequitur because me being a transphobe doesn't follow from me saying that the above argument is valid.

Mr Harris is going to run out of poster to read, pretty quickly too.

Yes. Has there been a single poster he's talked to who he hasn't soon after claimed to be ignoring from here on out?

Let's see if we can distinguish between : gender, gender identity and gender roles.
It would be nice to separate sexual physical characteristics: penis, vagina, etc form the physiology of the brain as well.

Let's see if we can distinguish between: gender, gender identity, and gender roles.
It would be nice to separate sexual physical characteristics: penis, vagina, etc from the physiology of the brain as well. — prothero

Maybe we can create a 59th gender option called: separatist... lol

Since ones gender identification (psychology) is probably related to brain states (or the physiology and maybe the anatomy of the brain) using the all encompassing term "body" will fail to clarify "body" as a determinate of gender vs. gender identification.

Gender is a question of desire, which can be literalized. A Transsexual is not limited by a desire.

We can change our sex really and therefore gender, physically by taking the right hormones, having the genitals and other physical features modified. What the transsexual desires can become literally the way they are, they are not limited to subjective desire..

Some choose to take hormones.. Some choose to have surgery. Some just choose to change their gender role and others just do nothing. In turns out those that transition are typically happier and healthier.

We can change our sex really and therefore gender, physically by taking the right hormones, having the genitals and other physical features modified. What the transsexual desires can become literally the way they are, they are not limited to subjective desire.. — Cavacava

You can replace cock and balls with a hooha? TIL, maybe.

I suppose I was wondering to what extent it is a self-conscious performance of heterosexual norms, and to what extent it is 'involuntary' in he way that straights come to feel that they absolutely 'are' the roles they have been assigned. — unenlightened

Since 99.999% of gay men are born of and raised by heterosexual men and women, we can assume that those were the first roles they were exposed to during the period of personality formation as children. Heterosexual roles may not be all over the map, but they do vary some from person to person, place to place.

What a person (male, female, gay, straight) discovers that they have become when they are old enough to think about it in depth is pretty much fixed. It isn't that changes can not be made, but it is hard to redesign one's personality.

Yes, I guess so. A very good friend of mine told me recently that s/he has been taking hormones to become a women and is now going on a 2 year program to do the full make over.

The interesting part is that s/he continues to be attracted to women, so s/he is transforming into a lesbian.

S/He says he has been depressed for years, but since taking the hormones s/he is no longer depressed.

Sexual reassignment surgery.

And then I'm trying to relate this in my own mind to Eldridge Cleaver's discussion of the intersection of race and gender in Soul on Ice, about the hyper-masculine black man and the ultra-feminine white woman. But that is probably too complicated and controversial for this thread. — unenlightened

It's probably too complicated, and it's been a very long time since I read Soul On Ice.

S/He says he has been depressed for years, but since taking the hormones s/he is no longer depressed. — Cavacava

The half-dozen transsexuals that i know who take hormones and gained some facial hair and a bit more leanness; or breasts and more roundedness; and got a new wardrobe and a new name seemed happier after they did this than before. And, as I said earlier, I have no objection to someone carrying out some or all of these these procedures if they are happier for doing it.

I just don't agree that they changed from men into women, or from women into men. Medical procedures aided and abetted their imagination, and made it possible for them to pretend more effectively. 42 year old Jack who is now 42 year old Jill share the same brain, the same pre-surgical history, the same genetic make up, the same body (even if Jack's penis is now part of Jill's vaginal pouch).

Manliness and womanliness are package deals (so to speak) that include being embodied in a certain kind of body, having certain chromosomal arrangements and genetic characteristics, having certain organs, having inclinations that fall within a general range, and so on.

That doctors assist patients in "changing their sex" doesn't make it a fact that they have changed sex. Doctors do a lot of things because patients want things done, have the money to pay for the procedures, and the procedures fit into the standardized professional rules.

People are quite willing to have scalpels carve their flesh--enlarging, reducing, enhancing, augmenting, tightening, loosening, lifting, lowering, removing, or adding to features. The person may be happier with an enhanced butt, bigger or less pendulous breasts, a more pendulous penis, less lard around the middle, and so on. Some of what people have done resembles reupholstering more than health care. People also take hormones on their own to get the kind of bodies they want from spending vast amounts of time in a gym and being very careful to stay thin.

I don't disagree, I too think that something of the original sexual physical orientation remains, it makes the new gender reality possible.

Grayson Perry is a very talented potter, a transvestite and a very insightful person. He won the 2003 Turnner Prize. He accepted it in drag, as his alter ego Claire. His wife (a psychiatrist) and his daughter were in attendance. S/he also met the Queen, there was no big deal, it was not discussed

Grayson says that now he is expected to show up in drag, which he indicates kinda takes the edge off being in drag. Obtaining his notoriety has robbed him of his mystery. People are part of the fantasy. how people want to be perceived. The mystery 'thing' interested me.

Anyway, I told my friend I would support him as long as s/he does not become a drama queen.

Manliness and womanliness are package deals (so to speak) that include being embodied in a certain kind of body, having certain chromosomal arrangements and genetic characteristics, having certain organs, having inclinations that fall within a general range, and so on. — Bitter Crank

That is a very clear way of expressing things. There is a package called normal whereby if you have a penis then you have short hair, wear trousers, have a beard, like to fuck women are competitive, aggressive, unemotional, analytical read maps, go hunting, get drunk, watch football, avoid romantic comedies except when trying to pull, and so on and on, with variations according to culture and class.

Failure to conform is deviance, and deviance is punished.

Of course now we are all liberal, we don't mind all sorts of deviance, and if you want to watch romantic comedies - knock yourself out, and we'll all support you - as long as you don't become a drama queen or call my identity into question by trying to kiss me or something, or expect the state to support your deviant identity.

Grayson says that now he is expected to show up in drag, which he indicates kinda takes the edge off being in drag. Obtaining his notoriety has robbed him of his mystery. — Cavacava

What he has been robbed of is the transgressive thrill; talented artists are admitted to the upper classes (almost) and therefore allowed to be 'eccentric'.

Way back in prehistory, when I was a lad, one of the complaints about us hippies growing our hair was that "you can't tell if they are men or women". And this was important to real men, because you might accidentally try and get off with another man and that would make you a deviant, and at that time, a criminal. It's still a notorious danger of the ladyboys; real men have to be careful in Thailand.

All of which is a long-winded way of pointing out that identities inter-relate, and your deviance is a threat to my normality. Of course we have reached the point where normality has absorbed liberality, and intolerance is the new deviance, which is a thrill for some philosophers ... being a homophobe is regarded with exactly the same intolerant horror and instant punishment that used to directed at homosexuals. And that is why the world is a much happier and more moral place than it used to be. ;)

I know that Harry Hindu has claimed that such people have a mental disorder, thinking that they're something they're not. But I think such a claim falsely assumes that the transgender man believes that he has a penis. For the most part, that's false. He recognises that he doesn't have a penis, hence identifying as a transgender man rather than a cisgender man. It must then mean that the transgender man doesn't believe that being a man means having a penis, which makes the accusation of having a mental disorder mistaken. At best you could claim that the transgender man is either misappropriating or misunderstanding the term "man", which really does just mean "a person with a penis", in which case the dispute is a trivial one over proper language use. — Michael

What I have said is that they have a somatic delusion - which is a delusional belief that there is something wrong with your body - as in you are in the wrong one - similar to believing that you have an alien arm that isn't part of you, or doesn't seem to obey your mental commands. A trans simply has the delusional belief that they have the wrong body as a whole as being a man is more than just having a penis, it is also a lack of breasts, less ribs, hair growing on the face, etc.

I think what you're referring to specifically is body dysmorphic disorder. However, this doesn't seem like the correct diagnosis.

For one, those with body dysmorphic disorder tend to either imagine or exaggerate a perceived flaw. This isn't the same as, say, being a brunette but hating the colour and preferring to be blond. Of those transgender men who are uncomfortable with their body, it isn't that they're imagining that they have a penis or don't have a vagina, but that they recognise that they have a vagina but don't want one, and so it is more comparable to hating the colour of your hair (albeit there's likely to be more anxiety than in the case of hair colour).

Secondly, not all transgender people are uncomfortable with their body. Plenty of transgender women have no desire to transition via surgery and hormones. They're more concerned with things like perceived gender roles, clothing, labelling, and other social aspects. Do you have an argument-from-evolution against those born with a penis preferring to wear high heels and dresses and being referred to using the pronouns "she" and "her", but who are happy with their sexual organs, or are these not the transgender people you're talking about?

The DSM-5 (the latest edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) used by the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychologist Association uses the term "gender dysphoria". The former term was "gender identity disorder".