For what it's worth, the dash in a Tesla looks like they decided to glue in an iPad as an afterthought...


Compare Mercedes...

Tesla est déclassé!

Empowered by President Trump, Mr. Musk is waging a largely unchecked war against the federal bureaucracy — one that has already had far-reaching consequences.

I am by nature apolitical. So, I observe current events in government as-if a back & forth football game, in which I have no allegiance to either side.

Yet, it recently occurred to me that Trump is trying to return the federal US administration to its Spartan form under William McKinley. Until the Great Depression, and four terms of Franklin Roosevelt, the federal government was mostly limited to representing the federated states to the outside world, including military operations. So it had little to do with the average citizen, and no budget for social programs. That was left to churches and the individual states. Billionaire oligarchs & magnates seem to view themselves as basically self-sufficient independent entities (including tax evasion), so they can be expected to support a McKinley-type administration politically, if not financially.

Since FDR used back-channel federal powers to provide financial aid to individual citizens, and to prop-up failing banks, we have become addicted to a social-support system at the top. But spending federal money on common people instead of military was never intended by the Constitutional conventions, attended mostly by the 2% aristocracy. It was an emergency adaptation that became a feature of liberal government.

Those emergency powers were popular with the masses of common people, so unconstitutional programs like Social Security are almost impossible to terminate long after the emergency has been survived. And they were financially feasible only as long as the US was the top colonial super-power in the world. But now that the US is a debtor nation, the social services are being paid for with borrowed money.

Therefore, although I benefit from social security, I am appalled at Trumpsk heavy-handed axing. Yet, I must admit that something must be done to keep the nation solvent. And perhaps only an elected dictator, and an un-elected henchman, could be expected to mandate such an overhaul of federal finances. FDR's dictatorial policies were allowed only because even the oligarchs could see the hand-writing on the wall, foretelling the total failure of empire unless some "hero" could be found to do what was necessary. Do you see any other route to federal solvency? :smile:



William McKinley was the 25th president of the United States, serving from 1897 until his assassination in 1901. A member of the Republican Party, he led a realignment that made Republicans largely dominant in the industrial states and nationwide for decades. ___Wikipedia

Therefore, although I benefit from social security, I am appalled at Trumpsk heavy-handed axing. Yet, I must admit that something must be done to keep the nation solvent. — Gnomon

But it also needs to be made clear that Trump has no intention of balancing the budget. Yes, Trump-Musk will take the chainsaw to many government programs and agencies, but his tax cuts are so deep that they will more than offset any savings. The inexorable trend under the plutocracy will be dismantling welfare programs AND reducing taxes. It's plain who will benefit from that.

Meanwhile:

A federal judge on Tuesday found that Elon Musk and the White House's Department of Government Efficiency likely violated the Constitution when they unilaterally acted to shut down the U.S. Agency for International Development.

U.S. District Judge Theodore Chuang ruled in favor of a group of more than two dozen unnamed current and former USAID employees and contractors who had challenged the efforts to shutter USAID, which were mounted by DOGE and Musk, a senior White House adviser who President Trump has said is the leader of the task force.

Chuang granted in part their request for a preliminary injunction and said in a 68-page decision that DOGE and Musk likely violated the Constitution's Appointments Clause and separation of powers.

He ordered Musk and task force employees to reinstate access to email, payment and other electronic systems to all current USAID employees and personal services contractors. The judge also prevented DOGE and Musk from taking any action relating to the shutdown of USAID, including placing employees on administrative leave, firing USAID workers, closing its buildings, bureaus or offices, and deleting the contents of its websites or collections. — Judge finds Elon Musk and DOGE's shutdown of USAID likely unconstitutional

A related judgement says that many DOGE firings were illegal:

A federal judge ruled Thursday that the mass firing of federal employees was an “unlawful” directive by the Office of Personnel Management.

U.S. District Judge William Alsup ordered several agencies to “immediately” reinstate all fired probationary employees. Those agencies included the Department of Veterans Affairs, as well as the Departments of Defense, Energy, Interior, Treasury, and Agriculture. That would also restore numbers at the Internal Revenue Service, which falls under the helm of the Treasury Department and has been hit hard by job cuts in recent weeks.

In a hearing leading up to the decision, Alsup torched the Trump administration’s decision not to submit OPM director Chad Ezell for questioning as a “sham,” and accused the White House’s effort to cast the firings as performance failures as “a gimmick.”

“It is sad, a sad day, when our government would fire some good employee and say it was based on performance when they know good and well that’s a lie,” Alsup said, according to Politico’s Kyle Cheney.

The Trump administration has fired at least 30,000 employees with the help of Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency. DOGE has made a point to target probationary employees still within the first year of their roles. Some of those employees have been called to return, but most are still not working, reported Axios. — Trump Suffers Huge Loss as Judge Overturns “Unlawful” Mass Firings

Trump's attitude is, any judge who challenges his executive decrees are troublemakers and radical left lunatics. The judicial challenges to the deportation of Venezualen gang members under a little-used piece of wartime legislation looks like being the litmus test case where it Trump might choose to ignore judicial rulings.

Don't ask me why someone who can afford a Tesla is driving for LYFT, but nonetheless — BC

Second-hand Teslas are quite affordable and often come with off-sets, making a business purchase quite viable. The rest of that sounds a whinge.

But it also needs to be made clear that Trump has no intention of balancing the budget. Yes, Trump-Musk will take the chainsaw to many government programs and agencies, but his tax cuts are so deep that they will more than offset any savings. The inexorable trend under the plutocracy will be dismantling welfare programs AND reducing taxes. It's plain who will benefit from that. — Wayfarer

You may be right. But national & international economics are over my little pointy head-in-sand. Yet, I don't despair, because for every bull-in-the-china-shop, there may be someone with a red cape to guide the bull away from the fragile stuff. We can hope that there are a few of the 2%, or the fourth estate, who have enough common sense to see where tariffs & tax cuts & deportations are going, and the clout to take Trumpsk by the horns. In my fantasy of history, there have always been "heroes" on both sides of the political aisle, who practice Aristotelian moderation instead of political house-cleaning and populist swamp-draining.

The current worldwide rightward trend --- perhaps even in OZ --- may lead to a disaster like Hitler, but somehow the world will find a way to keep-on keeping-on, zig-zagging from left to right and back. Remember the grandeur-that-was-Rome? The path of history, when seen in retrospect, cycles between extremes, yet on average it seems to be on a moderate track, with few points of total anarchy. Even so, like a tornado that fortunately misses my house, Trumpnado may leave a wake of destruction behind. But, don't look to me to quell the storm. :cool:

The current worldwide rightward trend --- perhaps even in OZ --- may lead to a disaster like Hitler, but somehow the world will find a way to keep-on keeping-on, zig-zagging from left to right and back. Remember the grandeur-that-was-Rome? The path of history, when seen in retrospect, cycles between extremes, yet on average it seems to be on a moderate track, with few points of total anarchy.

The difference is we are now overpopulated and are outstripping resources. We have gone over the hump of the bacterial growth curve. The next time we have civilisation collapse, it will be global and we will leave behind us a polluted planet.

The current worldwide rightward trend --- perhaps even in OZ --- may lead to a disaster like Hitler, but somehow the world will find a way to keep-on keeping-on, zig-zagging from left to right and back. Remember the grandeur-that-was-Rome? The path of history, when seen in retrospect, cycles between extremes, yet on average it seems to be on a moderate track, with few points of total anarchy. Even so, like a tornado that fortunately misses my house, Trumpnado may leave a wake of destruction behind. But, don't look to me to quell the storm. :cool: — Gnomon

People may say that, but they don't understand it. The part that there will be destruction around, even if it's not your house that was shredded into pieces.

What Trump is doing goes way over people's heads and thus they don't understand what is happening as it's happening so fast. The US is cutting it's allies loose, surrendering to it's adversaries and basically going against everything it stood for the past 80 years. And domestically it's dismantling it's institutions and becoming more of tumultuous and wavering Latin American state.

Yet listening to the democrat octogenarian James Carville defending Chuck Schumer (74 years) and talking about a smart withdrawal, I think especially these old Washington circle jerks do not understand what is happening. They think this is American politics as usual. It's not.

More reasons why Musk is so fond of Putin also and why the turnaround of dumping the former allies and going to bed with Russia would be lucrative for Elon.

Russia will ‘undoubtedly’ discuss future Mars flights with Musk, Putin envoy says
Proposed talks would again put Musk, a senior adviser to Trump, in outsized and largely unaccountable role in international politics

Russian officials expect to hold talks with Elon Musk soon about space travel to Mars, Vladimir Putin’s international cooperation envoy said on Tuesday. The envoy’s comments, which Musk has not confirmed, also stated that Russia wanted to expand its cooperation with the US on space projects.

“I think that there will undoubtedly be a discussion with Musk [about Mars flights] in the near future,” Kirill Dmitriev said at a business forum in Moscow, going on to praise Musk’s efforts to push the boundaries of human achievement.

The proposed talks would once again put Musk, the world’s richest man and a senior adviser to Trump, in an outsized and largely unaccountable role in international politics. Musk has joined in on White House calls with international leaders since Donald Trump’s re-election, and prior to his new role in the administration reportedly was in regular contact with Putin.

An American saying how it is. Just love the constant honking in support of the cars going by.

I've said that Musk will be the most hated guy in the US for a long time. And likely he might stay for six months and then has to retire to look after his collapsed businesses (that likely will be saved by the Trump government).

Yet the project is clear: Elon brakes everything, does the "savings", then afterwards Republicans can just say it has already been done, that it wasn't them.

Actually comes to mind how politicians in Europe blame always the EU and Brussels for every painful decision they make. With the exception that the EU doesn't demolish the institutions of government like a madman.

Here's one, a cartoon encouraging "domestic terrorism"?

It'll be quite interesting to see how these threads go when, in say six years time, shit's the same. No disaster, no world war, no collapse of society... Wonder how we will deal with that.

Well, if it is as you say, the changes of present polity will have no effect upon some greater economy that will emerge in the future,

Why are you so confident that the past will continue into the future?

It always does. Hume doesn't scare me.

We go through these changes. We're in a stable enough civilisation. I don't see any reason to think it wont. Reagan was probably thought of this way. As would have Lincoln been in his time. As will future Presidents. I cannot see that this is in any way that matters, a special case. Call me ignorant if you want (not you, personally) - I don't think so after quite careful, and long-term (what, nine years now?) consideration. That term includes the evidence for what I'm saying. If Biden's term wasn't the same type of threat, then this isn't one.

It'll be quite interesting to see how these threads go when, in say six years time, shit's the same. No disaster, no world war, no collapse of society... Wonder how we will deal with that. — AmadeusD

Hmm....

The Corona pandemic killed about 1,2 million people in the United States alone. In the World roughly seven million.

Now we had a thread about that here... still do. Let's just look at the Opening Paragraph (OP) and the first reply from page 1:

Coronavirus, COVID-19, is spreading exponentially. So far we have seen news reports from countries where there is an organised and rapid response to outbreaks. But what we are beginning to see now is it's rate of infection in countries without such preparedness. Italy and more worrying Iran. Italy is adopting a very strict strategy now, after being slow to tackle the infection. Whereas Iran is in denial, they are refusing to quarantine suspected cases. They have refused to lock down an important religious site which appears to be the epicentre of their outbreak. Also it has been spreading amongst the political class. There is talk of it's spreading rapidly throughout the Middle East.

What concerns me is that the chaos which will ensue in the Middle East, the virus will find a breeding ground and develop into a more deadly strain. Similarly to the way that Spanish Flu developed during the chaos of the First World War.

Should we be worried, or should we just wait until a vaccination is developed so that we can irradicate it through a vaccination programme?
Or is this the beginning of a deadly pandemic? — Punshhh

Overblown hysteria. The media have nothing better to report, and what better to draw attention than pretending there's a crisis.

The coronavirus has killed about 2,700 people so far. The flu kills roughly 60,000-70,000 people each year. — Tzeentch

Yeah, so do you think @AmadeusD that the pandemic was something you would put into that category of "no disaster... Wonder how we will deal with that."

Because naturally at hindsight everything will look OK. My grandparents lived through a civil war and World War 2 and survived, so naturally my life has been just dancing on roses compared to that.

I fail to see any reason to answer to such a weird charge in the fullness with which you've laid it out.

My answer to the direct question is "no". But this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the position of mine you've quoted to reply to. Quite weird.

What I meant is that afterwards a lot seems to be the same if our own lives are similar, when we live and work at the same place, see same friends. It seems that nothing has happened. Yet a lot has and will happen.

Oh, i see where you're going. Thanks for clarifying. Hmm okay, well again, my answer was 'no' so maybe I intuit something similar.

But yeah, life isn't much different to 2019 except prices and a bigger political division. But they were inevitable, temporary consequences to the types of policy changes that happened. We've reset. I think some miss this, and that's why there's such division still. We don't need to argue about masks, so we find other shit like cybertrucks.

The pandemic was a disaster because it came from a lab, likely funded by the US and China, and therefore entirely avoidable.

As far as the death toll goes, it wasn't anything special - on the level of a serious flu. Countries went into full blown hysteria imposing measures, which, according to reports by Dutch health agencies themselves, likely cost more lives than they saved.

Yeah, so do you think @AmadeusD that the pandemic was something you would put into that category of "no disaster... Wonder how we will deal with that."

The economic fallout is much more damaging than the death toll. Although it’s difficult to see because there is other economic turmoil going on at the same time.
Here in the U.K. 500,000 people have disappeared from the workforce as a result of the pandemic. I’ve heard there is a similar, though less acute trend across Europe. For a couple of years people couldn’t believe it, what are these people doing? they thought. On examination it turned out there were many people nearing retirement age, some more than 10yrs from retirement who realised they enjoyed the simple peaceful life of lockdown. They realised that they had been working like wage slaves, like they were stuck in a rut, workaholics. Alongside them, there are 100’s of thousands of people with long Covid, who struggle to work, or are now on incapacity benefits. People are unable to work because of long delays in hospital treatment due to hospitals struggling with the pandemic. There are landlords of office blocks going bankrupt because so many people work from home now that the offices are empty.

The knock on effects on global trade are still affecting supply and inflation of resources. The increases of the cost of living for the poor around the world are pushing many people who were just about managing over the edge into poverty. The elites and oligarchs are looking to hide more of their wealth and extract as much as they can out of economies before there is another hit to the global economy from somewhere. This is one of the reasons why oligarchs are buying up and funding news and social media outlets to spread populist lies and turn states authoritarian. A kleptocracy enables them to rip off sections of societies and to divide and rule. The ensuing chaos makes it easier to hide their wealth offshore. Countries are looking to devour other countries to keep monsters in authoritarian rule etc etc.

The pandemic was a disaster because it came from a lab, likely funded by the US and China, and therefore entirely avoidable. — Tzeentch

That was a case example of how that was tried to be controlled, by those that had ties to it.

As far as the death toll goes, it wasn't anything special - on the level of a serious flu. — Tzeentch

No, it was one of the large pandemics and historically a notable pandemic. You yourself said that flus kill 60 000-70 000 a year, which is actually on the high side. Something hundred times deadlier is a notable event.

And of course, the AIDS has been a larger killer, but it has lasted for far longer.

The economic fallout is much more damaging than the death toll. Although it’s difficult to see because there is other economic turmoil going on at the same time. — Punshhh

Here the cause effects in history makes history not so clear. The inflation spurt was basically caused by the actions to avoid the "natural" recession when people are forced to stay at home. But these events then blend in to others. Another issue is also the 2008/2009 Financial Crisis and the Great Recession, which basically too has still fundamental effects still to this day.

This makes us very difficult to see what is happening. Some things are just events of the day, some are events taking many years to develop. Only with historical perspective the historians can have an agreement on what were the notable events as something "notable" is something that explains future development.

Something hundred times deadlier is a notable event. — ssu

It was a notable event, but Covid's deadliness was on par with a serious flu, and our reaction to it was one of complete hysteria which cost more lives than it saved.

The Dutch health authority estimated that the Dutch measures taken against Covid had saved, if I remember correctly some 150,000 QALY's while costing upwards of 350,000 QALY's.

QALY's are cost efffectiveness indicators and death toll are quite different things. And the Netherlands had one of the lowest death rates to COVID-19, only a third of the deaths per million that the US and many other countries suffered.

Some countries had it better. (But this is for the Coronavirus thread that still goes on.)

Our civil service is being dismantled on a level that the means of transferring skills and knowledge from one generation to the next is under attack (who knows if ultimately successful).

The Reagan years did put those services under stress but did not attempt to disappear them, as such, outside of Congress, who was assigned the job of designing Government by the Constitution.

I don't think that is true. Yes, some civil services are being dismantled, with a view to restoring them in better (read: more efficient) forms (whether that's doable, actually what's being done, or whether it shakes out that way notwithstanding.. I'm not pro-those policies). So, it's premature and a sign of perhaps prejudgment to assume the negative outcomes as stated.

That said, no, this will not prevent skills and knowledge being handed on to further generations. That doesn't even strike me as a possible outcome. Could you explain?

There are two vectors.
The push to have experienced people leave as soon as possible.
The reduction of "probationary" employees who are typically the ones who do the work after their teachers leave.

That said, no, this will not prevent skills and knowledge being handed on to further generations. That doesn't even strike me as a possible outcome. Could you explain? — AmadeusD

Sure - many of those who have been selected for immediate dismissal across all these Departments were probationary employees with a year or less on the job. Meaning that they were the people being trained to take the reins when older employees retired. And their ranks have been decimated. The IRS is a particularly egregious example, considering how much Republicans kvetch about debt and deficit. You'd think they would give priority to an effective tax department, but no.

You seem to be challenging others to prove to you that Musk and Trump are doing enormous damage to the fabric of federal public services. If you read the media coverage, it is abundantly obvious what is happening. I'm not going to waste time trying to explain it further.

The push to have experienced people leave as soon as possible. — Paine

Are you sure this is what's happening? I don't really see it. I can see it as a (foreseeable, and dismal) side effect. That said, I'm unsure this would achieve the situation you're claiming either. Movement happens all the time, in and out of countries and classes etc... So, I'm just not quite seeing what's so special here i guess.

he reduction of "probationary" employees who are typically the ones who do the work after their teachers leave. — Paine

I might need a clarification of what you're pointing to. What's the 'reduction' in issue here?

Meaning that they were the people being trained to take the reins when older employees retired. — Wayfarer

Right. A huge amount of assumption goes into getting from this (which, arguably, isn't a massive problem - that's a far different conversation to this one though) to the conclusion that there's going to be some horrorful gap in knowledge upcoming. That said, I'm not coming down on any side. I'm asking for views and for people to defend theirs. If that's an issue, I don't take you seriously. I'm sure that's reasonable to you, also.

If you read the media coverage — Wayfarer

I'm not going to waste time trying to explain it. — Wayfarer

Oh, nevermind. Loud and clear.

Are you sure this is what's happening? — AmadeusD

Yes, from the reports from my friends and family, many of whom are public servants, inside and outside of the government per se.