Could you re-word? — Gnomon
Coincidentally, after writing the post above, I went back to reading a novel on Kindle : The Magic Mountain. There's no supernatural magic in the story, but the author writes in a rambling & erudite style that I call "poetic prose". It's set at a TB sanitarium in the Swiss alps in the 1920s, just prior to WWI. {around the time Whitehead was writing his Process. } This was before DNA (genetic information) was discovered. So, the emergence of life from non-life was a mystery. . . . and it still is.explain how Life & Mind could emerge from material processes, without divine intervention — Gnomon
Isn't it then a larger question of how the Divine Life & Mind could be so without a regress to HIGHER and GREATER, etc? We only see the polar opposite of the smaller and smaller as a basis. — PoeticUniverse
You think the Programmer is "sitting around" doing nothing? You may be thinking of Jehovah, who created paradise in six days, and then on Sunday went out to play golf. Whitehead's God never takes a day off; creating is what S/he does 24/7/365.Could you re-word? — Gnomon
How is it that a Great Programmer is sitting around? Wouldn't he need a zillion times more explaining than humans getting explained through him? — PoeticUniverse
Lao Tse's Tao — Gnomon
The program is a set of ideas, from the mind of the programmer, that govern the process of Evolution from a Singularity, to a quark-gluon Plasma, then to atoms & molecules & elements of matter, then on to vast systems of stars, and eventually to living & thinking lumps of matter on a single Blue Planet. — Gnomon
Let us realize that what is Eternal
Stands as the bedrock of all that appears,
The permanent presence beneath every change,
Unchanging through all of time’s gathering years.
What truly exists cannot fade or dissolve,
Cannot be created or suffer decay;
The Eternal simply and perfectly Is,
While temporary forms drift like clouds away. — PoeticUniverse
Lovers of Wisdom are called Philosophers. They know that which cannot be seen : Ideal concepts. But they also have the wit to avoid placing their Faith in the heart's desire, if the Ideal is in conflict with the Real. Ancient mothers reluctantly gave their babies to fiery Moloch in exchange for temporal rewards. But when those blessings, promised by servile priests, do not come to pass, wise women will learn that idols of gold are merely tools for political domination. Only the unseen unchurched Nature god has the innate power of flourishing. The rock from which the water of Life flows. The rock abides, but we philosophers must go with the flow. :grin:For this is wisdom’s deepest, sweetest song:
That in the heart of all that seems to flee,
There dwells that which has never left its place—
The one still point of all eternity. — PoeticUniverse
In a previous post, I said "The God of the Process is both Immanent (what you see) and Transcendent (what you infer), as is my Programmer." To clarify, I'll explain further : the Transcendent aspect of the Programmer is Plato's eternal principle of Form (an infinite pool of possibility : Potential), and the Immanent aspect is what I call EnFormAction (causal Energy) and Mind (mental information). :nerd:How is it that a Great Programmer is sitting around? Wouldn't he need a zillion times more explaining than humans getting explained through him? — PoeticUniverse
OK. What caused the Big Bang to exist as the point of origin for our space-time cosmos? That Something from Nothing hypothesis "provides no additional explanatory value", and Multiverse hypotheses treat the BB as a minor speed-bump, magically extending the timeline into the infinite past. Is that conjecture merely a "refuge of ignorance"? Where's the evidence?The ‘God hypothesis’ provides no additional explanatory value. It is but a refuge of ignorance. One who feels the need to postulate a divine cause is left with the question of what caused God to exist! — PoeticUniverse
False (again). :roll:All philosophies & religions have postulated some First Cause or Prime Mover ... — Gnomon
Planck scale pre-spacetime (vacuum) consists of random – a-causal – fluctuations (events), ergo no "first cause"; spacetimes (nonrandom event-patterns (e.g. universes)) rarely do emerge as reasonably expected (re: law of very large numbers ... of random events), etc. A god-fairytale (e.g. "prime mover", "enformer / programmer", etc) is not needed and does not explain anything – even in principle; it just begs the question as a woo-of-the-gaps appeal to ignorance. Physical cosmogeny only circumstantially suggests stages of spacetime development not "the ultimate origin of" anything. As many others besides myself have pointed out for years, your scientistic reduction of metaphysics, Gnomon, amounts to a risibly dogmatic pseudo-theology (on par with astrology & alchemy). Do yourself (us) a favor and read God: The Failed Hypothesis by physicist and philosopher Victor Stenger.But the God Hypothesis is aCausalexplanation — Gnomon
What caused the Big Bang to exist as the point of origin for our space-time cosmos? That Something from Nothing hypothesis — Gnomon
So, what makes nothingness go Boom? — Gnomon
The God of the Process is both Immanent (what you see) and Transcendent (what you infer), as is my Programmer. — Gnomon
:cool: :up:Read Stenger andDawkings[Hawking] and 180 Proof and Poetic Universe! — PoeticUniverse
:smirk:'Nothing' cannot even be meant.
That's a good summary of Immanentist-Materialist doctrine, from an Earth-based animal-mind perspective. Pragmatic Matter-only believers can't imagine the absence of material Things*1 ; that would be an abyss of utter negation : outer darkness. On the other hand, a Transcendentalist-Idealist worldview, from a theoretical cosmic-philosophical perspective, does not negate the common-sense material world of the animal senses : ex nihilo nihil fit. But it does go beyond the here & now, as only humans can do, to "see" what lies beyond the horizon. Dogmatic Matter-only (what-you-see-is-all-there-is) {all Terrain, no Map} believers are not allowed to imagine anything that is not-yet-real, such as abstractions & symbols & potentials. However, Transcendentalists --- or in my case, PanEnDeists --- are free to envision ex omni or ex deo creation or manifestation*2. Not what is, but what logically could be. :cool:There cannot be a 'Nothing' for one, and two, if someone still wants a 'Nothing' that changes into a Something, as a event in time, this cannot be, either, for 'Nothing' has no time, no anything, and again, 'it' doesn't have an it. Those ex nihlilo believers don't get it or 'it'. — PoeticUniverse
However, Transcendentalists --- or in my case, PanEnDeists --- are free to envision ex omni or ex deo creation or manifestation*2. Not what is, but what logically could be. — Gnomon
The infinite regress wheel-spinning is only a problem in space-time. In Eternity or Block-Time there is no before & after or higher & lower. Materialist thinking is inherently limited to such spatial & temporal relationships. But Transcendental thinking, i.e. philosophical thinking, goes beyond such limitations by abstracting logical relationships from concrete things. So, there is a way around the lower-level thinking. But you have to learn how to quiet the noisy animal mind*1 of the physical senses. :smile:Logically, human life and mind needing a Higher Life and Mind to form it all the more requires a HIGHER LIFE and MIND to form the Higher Life and Mind, and so forth, unto infinite regress. There's really no way around this. Rather, all becomes from the lower stuff. — PoeticUniverse
But Transcendental thinking, i.e. philosophical thinking, goes beyond such limitations by abstracting logical relationships from concrete things. — Gnomon
Block-Time — Gnomon
is, of course, a physical theory. :smirk:Eternity or Block-Time — Gnomon
... both real X and Not Real X (i.e. self-contradictory, or necessarily false). Good job! :clap:My worldview is both immanent and Transcendent ...
The women portrayed in your videos are not Real but Ideal. You won't find anything that perfect in your local bars or ashrams. They exist only as Ideas (Ideals) reproduced by manipulating 1s & 0s in an AI computer, and what you see is pixels on a screen. But what you think you see is merely an idea in your mind. You can "behold" them, but you can't hold them.Oh! Behold what He hath wrought: — PoeticUniverse
Cosmic Creation — Gnomon
The Night was pregnant with a burning need,
No thought, no form, no atom, no dark seed—
Until a sparkless spark did bloom and blaze,
And all the void became a field of speed.
The Cosmos, then, a thought still being spun—
A ruby verse beneath a setting sun—
And we, the readers, cup in hand, amazed,
Still asking how the All from not-there begun. — PoeticUniverse
The void was pregnant with untapped latency,
No things yet, just Ideal Forms for seeds,
Until an unsparked explosion created light,
And the abyss was actualized at cosmic-speed.
The unrealized Forms were thoughts like fluff,
Until intention said "let there be stuff"
Now we, the readers of the sky,
Are still asking "here am I . . . why?" — Gnomon
Whitehead's God is an ideal — Gnomon
That may summarize THE fundamental philosophical question. We can look down at our physical bodies, and feel some connection, but we can't look behind the mind's eye to see the questioner. So, we wonder who's looking?Is this the shortest poem?
I, . . . . Why? — PoeticUniverse
Yes, the AI program known as Evolution is automatically "managing" the process of progressive creation : from near nothing at the Bang, to everything seen on the Webb scope, plus everything back on Earth that the scope is not designed to look at. And that part of everything includes Djinn & Democracy, and all other immaterial products of human imagination that are not objects, but subjects : such as Art, Literature, and Science.So, the Great AI Program as the Ideal God is now micromanaging everything — PoeticUniverse
Evidence – how facts (signals) are distinguished from fantasies (noise) – of im-material (i.e. dis-embodied) "Mind" is profoundly lacking. And my Democritean "woo", Mr. Enformer, is far more evident (i.e. much less of an arbitrary / transcendent(al) gap-filler) than your pseudo-scientific "intelligent designer", or Aristotlean-Thomistic, "Woo". :smirk:180's own "woo-of-the-gaps" is the metaphysical belief that Matter (clay) can create Mind (idea) by rubbing atoms together. — Gnomon
The void was pregnant with untapped latency,
No things yet, just Ideal Forms for seeds, — Gnomon
After you land, a Hari-Krishna will give you a map at the airport. . . .
“Is your answer an untruth,” added Rascal, “for security purposes?”
“I ain’t not lying about nothing no way, no how, or nothing exists,” unanswered Nobody. — PoeticUniverse
Hari-Krishna — PoeticUniverse
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.