Homo sapiens hunter gatherers weren't just like us -- because much of what we are depends on when, where, how, and by whom we are bred and raised. — BC
Let's speculate about how victimized women were in the past, so we can project more original sin on men in the present. The lord of strife cares not whence the resentment flows, as long as it does. — Tzeentch
Men have been abusing women from the dawn of recorded history. I'm sure the abuse happend way before that. If you get a bunch of men and women together human nature is such that a non-trivial amount of men are going to violate the women. Tim wood thinks perhaps 100% of women can tell a story of sexual assault. I think he's right. All the women I know have horror stories about men. — RogueAI
The egalitarianism typical of human hunters and gatherers is never total but is striking when viewed in an evolutionary context. One of humanity's two closest primate relatives, chimpanzees, are anything but egalitarian, forming themselves into hierarchies that are often dominated by an alpha male. So great is the contrast with human hunter-gatherers that it is widely argued by paleoanthropologists that resistance to being dominated was a key factor driving the evolutionary emergence of human consciousness, language, kinship and social organization.[33][34][35][36]
Most anthropologists believe that hunter-gatherers do not have permanent leaders; instead, the person taking the initiative at any one time depends on the task being performed.[37][38][39] — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer#Social_and_economic_structure
To me it all pivots on the occurrence, else issue, of the inequity of power and the respect for other, or else the lack of these (in no particular order or correspondence). — javra
Suppose there's a parallel universe where everything else is the same, but men are weaker than women. Would we see the same rates of rape and abuse? — RogueAI
But anywho, what is the philosophical import of this sociological discussion? — Hanover
Tim wood thinks perhaps 100% of women can tell a story of sexual assault. I think he's right. All the women I know have horror stories about men. — RogueAI
As in, the evolution of human societies takes a path, and along the route women fare better and worse depending upon the moment. From my vantage point today, it does seem at this moment substantial efforts at female protection and enforcing equality are being made. — Hanover
All the women I know have horror stories about men. — RogueAI
why do we think it matters if women fared better in prehistoric times than today? — Hanover
I think the idea that a pre-historic society was egalitarian is pretty much a DOA. Nothing to it. The less oversight society has, more abuse happens. — AmadeusD
Is this to say that devoid of some authoritarian oversight humans - and, in particular, men - are naturally abusive? — javra
How then to account for the general egalitarianism of the hunter-gatherer tribes which are present in the current day? — javra
Issues such as this then signifying that men will naturally rape as many women as they/we can — javra
How then to account for the general egalitarianism of the hunter-gatherer tribes which are present in the current day? — javra
Easy: The rest of the world are no longer in those situations. My knowledge of several of those groups is that they are decidedly not egalitarian, even in principle. — AmadeusD
But that subjection of women to their men, rife in pretty much every group on that list. — AmadeusD
The above commentary though might be considered a simplistic strawman that no one really submits, but I offer it just to ask the question of why do we think it matters if women fared better in prehistoric times than today? — Hanover
To begin with, can you provide references evidencing that modern hunter-gather societies - or at least some such - are of an authoritarian leadership which so 'oversees' all others in the tribe so as to preserve social cohesion? — javra
ve previously given references to my affirmations — javra
To begin with, can you provide references evidencing that modern hunter-gather societies - or at least some such - are of an authoritarian leadership which so 'oversees' all others in the tribe so as to preserve social cohesion? — javra
No, because I didn't claim this. — AmadeusD
I think the idea that a pre-historic society was egalitarian is pretty much a DOA. Nothing to it. The less oversight society has, more abuse happens. — AmadeusD
My knowledge of several of those groups is that they are decidedly not egalitarian, even in principle. — AmadeusD
I sense some bristling in this response, so forgive me for being pretty lack luster in mine. I don't care for bristles — AmadeusD
"In the Aka community, despite a sexual division of labor where women primarily serve as caregivers, male and female roles are highly flexible and interchangeable. Women hunt while men care for children, and vice versa, without stigma or loss of status. Women are not only as likely as men to hunt but can even be more proficient hunters."
If you're not seeing a problem, I can't say I care to explain it. — AmadeusD
"The Bambuti tend to follow a patrilineal descent system, and their residences after marriage are patrilocal..... The only type of group seen amongst the Bambuti is the nuclear family."
"Sister exchange is the common form of marriage. Based on reciprocal exchange, men from other bands exchange sisters or other females to whom they have ties.[9]"
Clearly not egalitarian, despite the claim (not referenced) in the following paragraph, that they are. — AmadeusD
The Kets have a rich and varied culture, filled with an abundance of Siberian mythology, including shamanistic practices and oral traditions. Siberia, the area of Russia in which the Kets reside, has long been identified as the originating place of the Shaman or Shamanism. — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ket_people#Culture
I also spent about eight years looking in to and speaking with members of Amazonian tribes (for different reasons) and it was patently obvious all of those groups (Jivaro, Shipibo, Ashaninka etc..) are patriarchal through endless books, conversations and papers - I can't pull out some specific reference without carrying out some actual research, which this thread doesn't call for. — AmadeusD
Further, this concept of hte 'noble savage" or some weird idea that indigenous societies were more just than ours needs to stop. They were mostly brutal and unforgiving. — AmadeusD
Again, what you in fact claimed: — javra
Rationally then, your affirmations entail that in the absence of a non-egalitarian, hence authoritarian leadership which "oversees", societies will have ample "abuse" ingroup — javra
Can you then, instead, reference tribes wherein abuse is rampant ingroup due to not having authoritarian leadersphip? — javra
Might as well be calling me a porcupine. Name-calling, while it might have its political advantages amongst some, is not something that validates affirmations, though. — javra
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