This may not be completely rational, just as fearing all men would be, but given the psychological damage suffered it is perfectly understandable — I like sushi

Understandable never entails right, yeah.

When it comes to imprisonment my initial reaction would be that violent and sexual crimes means you have effectively crossed a line. If a trans woman goes to prison for any other crime I do not really see any problem with them being placed in a prison with women. However, this should be on a case by case basis not a one rule fits all (as with most criminal convictions). — I like sushi

Yeah that seems defensible to me. The status quo treats prisoners of particular risk differently regardless of their gender.

Overall, it seems this is just a phase people tend to go through (usually in young adulthood). — I like sushi

Complexities like that are why I've been trying to talk about people that have obtained a GRC.

The tennis thing is low hanging fruit. Leave it alone.

Anyone with any kind of sense understands that there are clear physiological advantages for trans women over women. The heart of that kind of debate - and what was being alluded to by fdrake - is that there is clearly a difficulty in knowing where to draw the line.

Personally I think it is more or less a case in sports where there is some contention that the person in question needs to ask themselves what is more important, their sporting career or their gender identity. This is not fair, but life offers up some more severe disadvantages to us than others. Perhaps in the relatively near future genetic engineering will put all this to bed and people can just get on being who they are without restrictions. Until then we just have to discuss and hope we can come to some better understanding.

Understandable never entails right, yeah. — fdrake

Well, I think it would be right not me make someone in a fragile state feel unnecessarily vulnerable as it would exacerbate their suffering and lengthen their period of recovery.

So, sometimes it is necessary to take into account people's feelings in regards to their personal experiences. We are talking about more extreme cases here I imagine? I am no expert on the kind of domestic violence and rape cases women suffer, but I would not be surprised to find numerous cases where 'understandable' does equate with 'right' (legal).

Maybe I am wrong though? Often enough the treatment can be more exposure to the cause of the pains?

Yes. The idea of defensive domestic abuse. — fdrake

In my community, it can't be both. Defensive violence is not abuse.

It's really not a good metric. If the majority of relationships that have IPV have two way IPV, "defensive violence" as a concept comes down to "who started it".

I think the incidence isn't particularly relevant for exclusion, honestly. The argument roughly goes that the trans woman appears as a man to attendees and is thus unsafe. — fdrake

And thus presents a risk. I still get the impression you are dismissing women and instead choosing to value to feelings of a mentally aberrant male (which must be hte case to be askance from the physical reality in which you live). The facts give us plenty of reason to exclude and thats exactly why we already do it, Claiming to be a women can't change you being male, so there's actually nothing to be talked about, if you agree males should be separated from females in intimate spaces, generally. If you don't - wow man, that's absolutely horrendous

For outcome: — fdrake

You skipped to this didn't you? Have a look at relative harms, in that analysis. Hehe. It is utterly preposterous to pretend males and females are on similar footing as regards IPV. That paper shows it. The conclusion is nominal.

Probably the most pressing matter - strangely not discussed - is that of employment and persons being passed over simply because they are trans. — I like sushi

No it's not. They are protected from this in Law in almost every country that it matters.

is that there is clearly a difficulty in knowing where to draw the line. — I like sushi

No there isn't. Male/female. That's the line.It is the only fair, and universal one. Women in women sports know what they're signing up for competing against women. Don't violate that, and you're good.

Until then we just have to discuss and hope we can come to some better understanding. — I like sushi

Why not hope that people who have a mental state incongruent with reality are supported in reassessing that mental state to align with reality and thus ameliorate the suffering?
If that's not hte aim, you must think people are born in the wrong body. I would like to know how, but I think that's a cruel joke of a position.

No it's not. They are protected from this in Law in almost every country that it matters. — AmadeusD

I think you missed my point. How well are these laws enforced? It is a little more important than being able to use a toilet I feel.

No there isn't. Male/female. That's the line. It is the only fair, and universal one. Women in women sports know what they're signing up for competing against women. Don't violate that, and you're good. — AmadeusD

So you would take the line that it is a choice of career over personal identity? I would agree for sports such as tennis. For other sports I do not know enough about the differences between the sexes. I would imagine so-called cognitive sports like chess or poker are far more open to accepting anyone. In some areas there is no harm at all.

I imagine your only argument here would be to say that poker or chess are not 'sports'? Or are you in favour of men only poker and women only poker? Then there is snooker, which is classed as a sport. It may well be the case that men have some advantages over women in this sport too, yet it is far from obvious how - unlike tennis or football.

In some categories of sport there are mixed sex tournaments as well as individual sex tournaments. If there is no advantage in a sport is it okay for a trans woman to enter a women's tournament? Lets say in chess. If you think it is wrong I just want to know. You can have that opinion.

I think the world is unfair, and that if a trans woman wishes to compete in any hard physical sport at a professional level they should only against other trans women or be a man and compete.

Why not hope that people who have a mental state incongruent with reality are supported in reassessing that mental state to align with reality and thus ameliorate the suffering? — AmadeusD

I have hope for many people on this forum - including myself and you. We are all pretty much resistant to uncomfortable realities as we wish to survive relatively intact rather than fractured.

I recall a documentary where someone had his leg amputated because the leg felt like it wasn't his. It clearly caused him a lot of distress and he knew the reality of the situation. Nevertheless, he had the leg removed and was happy about this.

If you support antinatalist ideas based on 'harm' I find your stance here rather confusing in this light. If the only way to ameliorate suffering is to allow people to live in a certain space in the world - within certain limitations - then what is the problem? The question seems to be more about the extent of the limitations (of which we all necessarily have to live by to lesser or greater degrees).

For other sports I do not know enough about the differences between the sexes. I would imagine so-called cognitive sports like chess or poker are far more open to accepting anyone. In some areas there is no harm at all. — I like sushi

There are cultural issues for women that bar them from competing on a level playing field. Access to facilities, not being accepted etc.
To encourage women to participate it makes sense to have a female only category even if there are no physical advantages in a certain sport or pursuit.
It would be difficult to find a sport or pursuit where the physical and cultural advantages of men are not significant.

If there is no advantage in a sport is it okay for a trans woman to enter a women's tournament? — I like sushi

A trans woman will have the same advantages that a man has had when growing up. Why should a male be allowed to compete because they identify as a woman?

The term "intersex" exists for a reason. Human biology is complex, and English vocabulary does not fully account for this complexity, and so the suggestion that the terms "biological male" and "biological female" each describe some unambiguous and mutually exclusive biological property that every human has shows a misunderstanding of both biology and language.

Take true hermaphroditism:

True hermaphroditism, a rare and usually sporadic disorder, is defined as the coexistence of seminiferous tubules and ovarian follicles. Most patients have an ovotestis with either an ovary or a testis on the opposite side; a gonad in the scrotum is usually a testis but may be an ovotestis.

The genitalia are usually ambiguous, but they may appear completely masculine or feminine. The anatomy of the internal reproductive tract depends on the nature of the gonads, particularly whether they secrete AMH. A uterus or uterine horn is present in 90% of cases. Testosterone response to HCG is variable, and AMH levels are usually low. Most patients experience breast development, ovulation, and even menstruation at puberty; pregnancy and successful childbirth are possible if selective removal of testicular tissue is feasible. Unless sex of rearing has already been chosen, male gender assignment should be restricted to patients with no uterus and descended testicular tissue because the latter is usually dysgenetic and prone to malignant degeneration. Most true hermaphrodites have a 46,XX karyotype. Despite the presence of testicular tissue, true hermaphrodites usually lack SRY; this suggests that the condition is the result of constitutive activation of a gene normally triggered by SRY.

And thus presents a risk. — AmadeusD

Perceived risk isn't real risk.

You skipped to this didn't you? Have a look at relative harms, in that analysis. Hehe. It is utterly preposterous to pretend males and females are on similar footing as regards IPV. That paper shows it. The conclusion is nominal. — AmadeusD

No, I didn't skip it.

You were arguing in terms of relative frequency of committing IPV given gender, and that including someone who counts as a man in a domestic abuse support group is bad on that basis, since "Domestic abuse is overwhelmingly perpetrated by males.", and I showed you a meta analysis which refutes the claim.

A trans woman will have the same advantages that a man has had when growing up. Why should a male be allowed to compete because they identify as a woman? — Malcolm Parry

If the playing field is level. That was my point. If there are women's, men's and unisex categories, then I think it is worth arguing that women's only events are open to trans women too. Otherwise the reasoning you use about "cultural issues" seems to apply for women but not for trans women.

When it comes to physical sports I am generally against trans women competing as trans women in women's sports. For cases where there is no discernable difference (non-physical to low end physical sports), and there are currently men competing against women in tournaments, I see no reason to bar trans women from women's events. Realistically we would be talking about one or two very passionate people interested in competing with other women as if they are a woman. What harm could this possibly cause?

It's really not a good metric. If the majority of relationships that have IPV have two way IPV, "defensive violence" as a concept comes down to "who started it". — fdrake

True. The evidence in the article I cited shows that men usually start it.

The evidence in the article I cited shows that men usually start it. — frank

I don't believe that's what it says. It says:

Thus, many domestically violent women—especially those who are involved with the criminal justice system—are not the sole perpetrators of violence. The victimization they have experienced from their male partners is an important contextual factor in understanding their motivations for violence. Some women who have been adjudicated for a domestic violence offense are, in fact, battered women who fought back (Kernsmith, 2005; Miller, 2005). They may well be at the same level of risk of serious injury or death as battered women who are seeking shelter. Service providers working with domestically violent women may need to develop safety plans similar to those they would develop for battered women.

IE that IPV is usually reciprocal. Having experienced it does not mean "he starts it", nor does it mean whenever "she does it", that it's defense.

IE that IPV is usually reciprocal. Having experienced it does not mean "he starts it", nor does it mean whenever "she does it", that it's defense. — fdrake

True. But men are more likely to engage in coercive control and stalking. Men are more likely to engage in sexual violence. Women sustain more injuries and more severe injuries than men. These facts are not consistent with a narrative where it's unclear who "started it."

True. But men are more likely to engage in coercive control and stalking. Men are more likely to engage in sexual violence. — frank

While this is basically a fact of reality only a fool would dispute, one could, hypothetically, argue that "engaging" and "attempting" vs. being able to successfully fulfill said attempts fully and powerfully to the fullest degree of intent, are the true differences to distinguish.

f the playing field is level. — I like sushi

I don't think it can be.

then I think it is worth arguing that women's only events are open to trans women too — I like sushi

Why? Why can they not compete in the men's (or open) category?

The cultural issues for women are not the same as for trans. I don't consider the trans issues the same at all.

When it comes to physical sports I am generally against trans women competing as trans women in women's sports — I like sushi

Generally? I think biological males competing against women is unfair and can be dangerous. It also, will discourage women's participation in sport.

For cases where there is no discernable difference (non-physical to low end physical sports), and there are currently men competing against women in tournaments, I see no reason to bar trans women from women's events — I like sushi

Why can't they compete in the men's/open category. Why the need to participate in women only competition?

Realistically we would be talking about one or two very passionate people interested in competing with other women as if they are a woman. What harm could this possibly cause? — I like sushi

Practically, you end up with biological males competing against women. I do not think that is fair or equitable

In my state each trans criminal is evaluated by an interdisciplinary team which decides housing based on safety and "other concerns." A trans-woman child abuser is likely to be murdered in a men's medium security prison. That's less likely in a women's prison. I think the community at large would be fairly ambivalent about where that person is sent.

Do you truly think this is what was being said? — AmadeusD

It was said, on several occasions, such that I developed a stock response. I guess you are too young to have experienced the rigidity of gender norms that used to prevail.

Are you seriously suggesting that the reason for privacy in ablutions is to avoid rape during ablutions? — AmadeusD

No, I am seriously suggesting that there is a strong taboo against exposing genitals; particularly to the opposite sex, as if visual contact were dangerous. (That it is not dangerous can be attested by any naturist.)

It is rather odd that society mandates the covering up of the sex, but then turns that same covering into a conventional display of it as gender
— unenlightened

I don't think it's odd at all. 98% of people identify strongly with their sex, and so express that. — AmadeusD

We express what we are obliged to cover up. It's entirely normal of course and almost universal — for humans. But humans are weird. If we want everyone to know our sex, why hide the parts that distinguish it most clearly?

These facts are not consistent with a narrative where it's unclear who "started it." — frank

Why?

It is almost as if you are answering without reading. Nvrmind.

In my state each trans criminal is evaluated by an interdisciplinary team which decides housing based on safety and "other concerns." A trans-woman child abuser is likely to be murdered in a men's medium security prison. That's less likely in a women's prison. I think the community at large would be fairly ambivalent about where that person is sent. — frank

All child abusers are less likely to be killed in a women’s prison. Do you put them all there?

It is almost as if you are answering without reading. Nvrmind — I like sushi

What have I missed?

Why? — fdrake

Because in Godzilla vs. Tokyo, Godzilla doesn't have a scratch on him when the coercive control, rape, and severe physical abuse started.

All child abusers are less likely to be killed in a women’s prison. Do you put them all there? — Malcolm Parry

No.

If you can find any data about the risk factors of kaiju committing domestic abuse, let me know.

Ok :up:

No — frank

Why not? They are at risk

Why not? They are at risk — Malcolm Parry

You can contact your state legislature if you're concerned.

You can contact your state legislature if you're concerned. — frank

Im not concerned in the slightest.

Im not concerned in the slightest. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not either. I'm glad they have an interdisciplinary team to make the decisions instead of the local mob.