If you compare belief in determinism to religion, then belief in free must be like outright cult worship... — VagabondSpectre
Causal is not equivalent to deterministic. Bohm's quantum equations are causal and non-deterministic. They have to be, always, because quantum theory it's probabilistic. There is no definite outcome until the system is observed, and this is inherent in quantum theory. Whatever interpretation you choose to use, quantum stays that in the world we live in and experience, quantum events are probabilistic. This destroys determinism. — Rich
Forgive me, but is pontificating about faith and experience the best way to conduct this debate? If I have faith in determinism, then you have faith in in-determinism. So what? I've brought up some fairly specific points which I'd like you to address directly. — VagabondSpectre
I have everyday experience to support my views — Rich
Of course we make choices. ...choices that are mostly, almost entirely, or entirely determined by our prior inclinations and predispositions, and events and conditions in our surroundings. — Michael Ossipoff
In 1920's 'they' found out that the idea of determinism is not right due to the discovery of quantum physics. So how do quantum physics give the Universe 'free will'? Or is quantum physics just an other thing we have yet to fully understand and is determinism still right? — FMRovers
Determinism has zero evidence. There is absolutely nothing to support the notion that everything is determined or anything it's determined and the choices we make are either governed by some supernatural God or Laws of Nature which in turn are mystically creating the illusion of choice. — Rich
You figure God/Laws of Nature did the writing and posting? — Rich
Yeah, determinism has zero evidence, apart from the fact that we find that everything in the physical universe is determined by the laws of nature. That's what science is all about. — Mr Bee
1) There is no such thing as the Laws of Nature. It is a made up please with no definition. It is precisely equivalent to God and has its roots in religion. — Rich
2) Science says that events are non-deterministic. If they were we could throw out Schrodinger's equation and replace it with Newton's. But, alas, science decided 100 years ago that Newton's Laws do not correspond to experimental evidence including Bell's Inequality which demonstrate non-locality. — Rich
That everything(almost everything) in this universe happens according to our laws of physics does not mean that everything is determined. — Barry
Quantum mechanics predicts the chance of a particulair event. For example if one is about to measure the position of an electron, quantum mechanics can predict the chance you will find the electron in lets say position x. It is impossible to predict exactly what will happen. Not because the theory is incomplete or a because of a lack of information. It seems that this is how nature works, which would suggest that the universe is nondeterministic. — Barry
Like I told Rich and the OP, there are different interpretations of QM, and not all of them are deterministic. A deterministic worldview is just as compatible with the science as any. — Mr Bee
You realize that Bohm himself said that his equations are causal but not deterministic. — Rich
They can't be because the quantum potential has to be probabilistic and it's right there as a probabilistic function in his equation. So that person who created that chart is just copying someone else's error. It happens when people are lazy. — Rich
What's the difference? Is causal compatible with uncaused indeterminism? — Mr Bee
I'm sorry, but it's actually common knowledge that the Bohm interpretation is deterministic. — Mr Bee
The only person I've heard that seems to be suggesting otherwise is you. — Mr Bee
Exactly who or what do you believe is choosing the words? — Rich
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.