• Showmee
    23
    Hi world! I wrote this quasi-survey on metaethics for my mandatory undergraduate writing class. As a result, many concepts are overly simplified, and the essay lacks strong logical rigor, since it’s intended for readers without a solid background in philosophy. Unfortunately, the essay doesn’t delve deeply into intuitionism or non-cognitivism, as my professor didn’t want to read a 20+ page paper—and I also had to study for my finals. In any case, I’d appreciate any information or elaboration on these two stances. General feedback is also very welcome!



    The Road to Error Theory

    In this essay, we will embark on a journey in search of the nature of ethics. To be precise, our focus will not be on normative ethics, which addresses questions such as “What is good?”, “What ought one to do?”, or “Which actions are praiseworthy?” Rather, we will turn our attention to metaethics, which adopts a broader philosophical perspective and seeks to uncover the fundamental nature and meaning of morality itself. The aspects of ethics we are concerned with here include its metaphysical status, epistemological validity, as well as its psychological and semantic dimensions.
    More specifically, I aim to establish the position of Error Theory as the least refutable view in metaethics. I use the phrase “least refutable” to indicate: 1) the insufficiency of my own knowledge and 2) the ambiguous nature of ethics as a field itself.
    Error theory is identified as a form of moral-antirealism, which refutes that moral statements report objective truths. However, to formally define this position, it is necessary to clarify some key terminologies.

    Terminologies and Definitions:

    First, metaethics can be broadly divided into two camps: moral realism and moral anti-realism. Moral realists maintain that moral statements are objectively true or false—that is, at least some moral claims report objective moral facts. Moral anti-realists, on the other hand, reject this thesis.
    Second, we must distinguish moral absolutism from moral relativism. Moral absolutism is the view that a single, universal set of moral principles applies to all individuals and cultures, without exception. Moral relativism, by contrast, holds that different moral principles apply to different individuals or groups, depending on cultural, historical, or situational contexts. It is important to note that moral realism is not equivalent to moral absolutism, nor is moral anti-realism equivalent to moral relativism. For instance, one could be a moral realist and a relativist by holding that different objective moral truths apply to different cultural or social contexts. In such a case, a person would be both a relativist and a realist.
    Thirdly, we should consider the distinction between moral cognitivism and non-cognitivism. Moral cognitivism holds that moral beliefs are truth-apt propositions—that is, it is possible for them to obtain a truth or false value, just like all other beliefs. On the other hand, non-cognitivism hold that moral beliefs fundamentally reflect mental states such as emotions, desires or instincts, which are not truth-apt (e.g. it does not make sense to say being angry is true or false).
    The table below should help conceptualizing these distinctions:
    Moral Realism Moral claims report objective facts
    Moral Anti-realism Moral claims do not report objective facts
    Moral Absolutism The same set of moral statements must be applied to all groups of individuals.
    Moral Relativism Different moral statements are applied to different groups of individuals.
    Moral Cognitivism Moral statements are truth-apt (can be true or false).
    Moral Non-Cognitivism Moral statements are not truth-apt.

    Now we are in a good position to formally define error theory. Error theory is a form of cognitivist moral anti-realism. That is, it holds that moral beliefs are truth-apt and therefore does not oppose the view that it is at least possible for moral beliefs to be true. However, moral statements are not actually true in the world we live in. An analogous illustration of this position is the case of unicorns: we assert that it is possible for them to exist, since no logical contradiction follows from that, but we also believe that they do not actually exist. Similarly, error theorists merely assert that moral statements fail to report any objective fact—not that they cannot possibly do so.
    While it was mentioned earlier that moral relativism does not necessarily entail moral anti-realism, it is generally the case that the latter—including error theorists—use the former as part of their argument. So depending on whether an error theorist adopts relativistic arguments, error theory could be interpreted as either a form of moral relativism or moral absolutism.


    Methodology:


    Moral realism often appears to be the more intuitive position. The very existence of ethics as a field of meaningful philosophical inquiry—rather than being unanimously reduced to mere non-objective instinct—suggests that people find moral questions worthy of analysis and reflection. Moreover, the structures of our society are largely grounded implicitly in moral principles; legislations and political ideologies, for instance, often appeal to some form of moral authority. This reliance implies that people are naturally committed to moral realism, for laws would lose much of their normative power if morality were seen as entirely non-objective. As David Brink puts it: “We begin as (tacit) cognitivists and realists about ethics.… Moral Realism should be our metaethical starting point, and we should give it up only if it does involve unacceptable metaphysical and epistemological commitments” (1989: 23–24). Hence, in this essay, we shall likewise begin with the assumption of moral realism, and proceed to explore the explanatory limitations it faces. More specifically, by considering these limitations of moral realism, we shall see that the “road to error theory” is actually not as obscure as one would expect it to be. It would turn out that error theory is the direct conclusion of these limitations.
    This, then, indicates that the arguments for error theory mainly take the form of reductio ad absurdum—that is, they assume the truth of the opposing view in order to reveal the absurd consequences that would follow from that assumption. One might criticize error theory on the grounds that it consists primarily, if not entirely, of destructive arguments. However, the absence of constructive arguments does not undermine the validity of the position under consideration. Firstly, the burden of proof in this contention lies primarily—at least prima facies—on the shoulder of the realists, for they are the party that seek to establish the existence of certain facts—namely moral facts. Consider the following analogy: which party has the burden of proof: Party A, who supports the existence of unicorns, or Party B, who denies this claim?
    This brings us to the second reason as to why error theory remains valid despite being built on destructive arguments: the fact that moral realism and anti-realism are mutually exclusive. An assertion about an objective fact is either true or false—that is, a fact either exist or do not exist, and there exists no middle ground. In this light, anti-realism can be understood as the negation of realism. Thus, the point is more clearly demonstrated by the logical representation: either x or not x—in which case, the successful refutation of one necessarily entails the acceptance of the other.
    Here is a list of refutations to moral realism (=arguments for error theory) that will be presented: 1) Moore’s Open Question Argument, 2) Hume’s Is-Ought Problem, and 3) Markie’s Argument from Queerness.

    Moore’s Open Question Argument—The Failure of Trying to Define Moral Statements:


    The father of Utilitarianism, Jeremy Bentham, begins his foundational work An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation with the following statement: “Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do… By the principle of utility is meant that principle which approves or disapproves of every action whatsoever according to the tendency it appears to have to augment or diminish the happiness of the party whose interest is in question: or, what is the same thing in other words, to promote or to oppose that happiness. I say of every action whatsoever, and therefore not only of every action of a private individual, but of every measure of government.” (1789: 1) Observe how readily Bentham equates goodness with the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain, justifying this definition by appealing to nature.
    However, this definition of goodness is open to contention. For surely utility cannot be the measure of all things. Consider Judith Jarvis Thomson’s Organ Donor Trolley Problem: “David is a great transplant surgeon. Five of his patients need new parts. One needs a heart, the others need, respectively, liver, stomach, spleen, and spinal cord. But all are of the same, relatively rare, blood-type. By chance, David learns of a healthy specimen with that very blood-type. David can take the healthy specimen's parts, killing him, and install them in his patients, saving them. Or he can refrain from taking the healthy specimen's parts, letting his patients die.” (Killing, Letting Die, and the Trolley Problem: 206)
    Killing one innocent person to save five seems intuitively wrong, even if one generally adopts utilitarian stance. However, does that mean utilitarianism is wrong? This is beyond the scope of our journey. But the case of utilitarianism serves as an example of the struggles of moral realism: No matter how we define goodness, there always exist some open questions that cannot be explained by the very definition of goodness (In general, this is true for all moral terms; goodness here serves as a prime example, and will continue be the representative example in this section). We shall see that this observation presents a huge challenge not only for utilitarianism, but all positions that aim to define goodness in terms of things other than goodness itself.
    G. E. Moore fundamentally rejects moral naturalism, the view that moral statements can be explored or confirmed scientifically and empirically. In his view, naturalists commit what he famously calls the “naturalistic fallacy”—the mistake of trying to define the simple, unanalyzable property of goodness in terms of some natural property, such as pleasure, desire-satisfaction, or evolutionary fitness. Unknown to Moore himself, his argument in fact challenges not only moral naturalism, but all metaethical positions that aim to define moral terms in a non-analytical way (definition in terms of ideas other than the term being defined).
    To clarify this point, Moore draws a distinction between simple and complex ideas, arguing that goodness falls into the category of the former. A simple idea is one that cannot be further reduced into constituent parts; it is an atomic element of our conceptual framework. In contrast, a complex idea is composed of multiple simple ideas and can be analyzed or broken down into them.
    Therefore, by asserting that goodness is a simple, irreducible quality, Moore rejects any complex definition of morality, including Utilitarianism.
    Moore’s argument takes the following form:

    Let goodness be equivalent to some complex idea X (e.g. the pursuit of the desire as desired by all humans)

    Then goodness = X, just as saying a triangle is a plane figure with three straight sides and three angles

    This means that asking whether goodness is really X should yield no meaningful and substantial answer, just as asking whether a triangle is a plane figure with three straight sides and three angles

    However, it seems that asking whether goodness is really X do yield meaningful and substantial answer (consider the case of Utilitarianism and Organ Donor Trolley Problem)

    Therefore, goodness cannot be equivalent to some complex idea X

    In this way, Moore refutes any attempt to define goodness in terms of anything other than itself. He concludes: “Good is a simple notion, just as yellow is a simple notion… We know what ‘yellow’ means, and can recognize it wherever it is seen, but we cannot actually define it. Similarly, we know what ‘good’ means, but we cannot define it” (Principia Ethica, §10). Therefore, any moral realist position that aims to define moral concepts in a synthetic or a posterior way render themselves susceptible to Moore’s Open Question Argument.



    Hume’s Is-ought Problem:

    Hume’s is-ought problem presents an epistemological challenge to moral naturalism. According to David Hume, no statement expressing what one ought to do can be logically derived from statements describing what is the case, unless an ought-statement is already assumed. In other words, the fact that X is Y does not entail that X ought to be Y. There exists an inferential gap between descriptive and normative claims, which cannot be bridged without introducing a normative premise previously already. For example, even if we observe—through scientific methods—that humans tend to pursue happiness and avoid pain, it does not follow that humans ought to act this way. Thus, no set of purely nonmoral premises can, by itself, entail a moral conclusion. As a result, even if the moral realists manage to overcome Moore’s Open Question Argument, they still face the epistemological challenge posed by the is-ought gap. That is, even if we successfully define what moral terms mean, we still need to explain how we can justify the logical leap of moral knowledge.
    The only viable way for moral realists to address both Moore’s and Hume’s challenges is to assume that moral facts are known a priori—that is, propositions that can be known independently of experience, through reason alone (or, as Descartes puts it, through the “natural light of reason”). Moral intuitionists, a subset of realists who adopt this view, aim to construct a coherent moral system grounded in fundamental moral axioms that are taken to be self-evident, placing particular emphasis on formalism. However, identifying such moral axioms is an arduous—if not impossible—task, given the inherent diversity and ambiguity of moral discourse. The following argument in favor of error theory will focus on these two features of morality.


    Mackie’s Argument from Queerness:


    J. L. Mackie first introduced the term “error theory” in his 1977 book Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong. He writes: “If there were objective values, then they would be entities or qualities or relations of a very strange sort, utterly different from anything else in the universe. Correspondingly, if we were aware of them, it would have to be by some special faculty of moral perception or intuition, utterly different from our ordinary ways of knowing everything else” (p. 38, 1977). This is the famous Argument from Queerness, which poses two central challenges to moral realism: one metaphysical, concerning the nature of moral entities, and one epistemological, concerning how we could possibly know them.
    The metaphysical challenge highlights a particularly peculiar feature of moral facts: they appear to involve an intrinsically necessary connection between a situation and a corresponding action. Moral statements do not merely describe the world; they seem to command us to act in specific ways under particular conditions. Yet such a prescriptive relationship is absent from other types of beliefs. As Mackie puts it, moral facts possess “qualities or relations of a very strange sort, utterly different from anything else in the universe” (Mackie 1977: 38). Therefore, if one accepts that moral statements report objective truths, one is also committing to the existence of a kind of “objective ethical prescriptivity”. But this is, by its very nature, metaphysically queer. For naturally, it raises the question: what is the ontological origin of such “prescription”? Is it God, a Platonic Form, or some intrinsic metaphysical link between situations and actions themselves? And if such entities or relations do exist, in what form do they exist?
    Closely tied to this metaphysical queerness is the epistemological question: if such objective ethical prescriptivity exists, how do we come to know it? As discussed earlier, attempts to define moral statements empirically—by appealing to scientific or naturalistic terms—render themselves susceptible to both Moore’s Open Question Argument and Hume’s Is-Ought Problem. On the other hand, treating moral knowledge as a priori truths would assume “some special faculty of moral perception or intuition, utterly different from our ordinary ways of knowing everything else” (Mackie 1977: 38). This too appears epistemologically suspect.
    Additionally, while moral relativism, as aforementioned, is not tantamount to moral anti-realism, it does serve as a strong argument for the latter. In a cross-cultural study, Richard Shweder found that moral concerns differ significantly across cultures. For example, in one Indian town, moral thinking was shaped by ideas of karma, suffering, and personal responsibility, where suffering is often seen as the just consequence of past actions. In contrast, American moral frameworks tend to view suffering as random or meaningless, often divorced from any notion of moral causality (Shweder, 1997). Considering this, if one maintains the existence of objective ethical prescriptivity, then two troubling possibilities emerge:1) Different objective moral values are prescribed to different groups of people; or 2) a single set of universal moral truths exists, but only some groups are epistemically equipped to access them. Either option implies an intrinsic difference between human groups, whether in their ontological status or epistemological capacities. However, within the framework of modern scientific understanding of the human species, such possibilities appear queer.


    Conclusion:


    Approaching ethics from my own perspective, I find the field deeply problematic. Unlike other branches of philosophy, a systematic and formal treatment of ethics seems impossible. Recall how the brief debate pertaining to utilitarianism was presented. Utilitarians assert a statement, and the opposition brings up a case that would render the utilitarian position counterintuitive. However, the fact that a proposition is counterintuitive does not mean it is illogical. If, in a branch of knowledge, being intuitive is more significant than being logical, then such a branch is substantially flawed, especially if it seeks to describe objective facts. Quantum physics is unimaginably more counterintuitive than Newtonian physics; this does not affect the former’s dominance over the latter. Similarly, in the field of mathematics, Gabriel’s Horn, which states that a shape (formed by rotating y = 1/x, for all x≥1, around the x-axis) could have infinite area yet finite volume, is not rendered invalid due to its counterintuitive nature.
    Yet, note how in ethical discussions, the validity of an argument or position is largely grounded in emotions and intuitions. Often, a position is refuted simply because it just does not “feel” right. The presence of such “emotional attachment” thus further obfuscates any attempt to clarify the field. Furthermore, notice also that in discussing ethics, the types of arguments often take the form of examples, analogies, or metaphors. The frequent use of scare quotes in this section (e.g., “feels” right) serves as direct evidence. It is as if we cannot talk about moral truths directly, but only through taking a “detour.”
    This observation is not only unique to me—it is the main motivation behind any moral non-cognitivist theory. As mentioned in the beginning, non-cognitivism holds that moral beliefs fundamentally reflect mental states such as emotions, desires, or instincts, and therefore are not to be treated as propositions. In light of the struggles in ethics identified in the previous paragraph, it is not hard to see the advantage and the explanatory power of non-cognitivism. However, the reason error theory—a cognitivist stance—is favored over non-cognitivism in this essay is because, while non-cognitivism effectively addresses some key issues, it introduces new problems of its own. Establishing a robust non-cognitivist stance requires not only destructive arguments, but also constructive ones—something current accounts fail to deliver satisfactorily. Thus, while non-cognitivism may be tempting, one must resist intellectual overreach and recall Socrates’ remark: “ἑν οἰδα ὁτι οὐδεν οἰδα” (One thing I know, that I know nothing).

    Reference:
    Bagnoli, C. (2024). Constructivism in metaethics. In E. N. Zalta & U. Nodelman (Eds.), The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2024 Edition). https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/win2024/entries/constructivism-metaethics/

    Bentham, J. (1823). An introduction to the principles of morals and legislation (New ed. rev.). Universidad De Antioquia. http://bibliotecadigital.udea.edu.co/bitstream/10495/2175/1/Introduction%20to%20de%20principles%20of%20morals%20and%20legislation%20%28vol.%20I%29.pdf

    Brink, D. O. (1989). Moral realism and the foundations of ethics. https://doi.org/10.1017/cbo9780511624612

    DePaul, M., & Hicks, A. (2021). A priorism in moral epistemology. In E. N. Zalta (Ed.), The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Summer 2021 Edition). https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/sum2021/entries/moral-epistemology-a-priori/

    Feldman, F., & Mackie, J. L. (1979). Ethics: Inventing right and wrong. The Philosophical Review, 88(1), 134. https://doi.org/10.2307/2184791

    Hume, D. (1994). An enquiry concerning the principles of morals (pp. 23–156). University of Notre Dame Press eBooks. https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctvpj759p.5

    Joyce, R. (2022). Moral anti-realism. In E. N. Zalta & U. Nodelman (Eds.), The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2022 Edition). https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/win2022/entries/moral-anti-realism/

    McGilvary, E. B., & Moore, G. E. (1904). Principia ethica. The Philosophical Review, 13(3), 351. https://doi.org/10.2307/2176289

    Sayre-McCord, G. (2023a). Metaethics. In E. N. Zalta & U. Nodelman (Eds.), The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2023 Edition). https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/spr2023/entries/metaethics/

    Sayre-McCord, G. (2023b). Moral realism. In E. N. Zalta & U. Nodelman (Eds.), The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2023 Edition). https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/win2023/entries/moral-realism/

    Shweder, R. A., Much, N. C., Mahapatra, M., & Park, L. (1997). The “big three” of morality (autonomy, community, divinity) and the “big three” explanations of suffering. In A. M. Brandt & P. Rozin (Eds.), Morality and health (pp. 119–169). Taylor & Francis/Routledge.

    Stratton-Lake, P. (2020). Intuitionism in ethics. In E. N. Zalta (Ed.), The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Summer 2020 Edition). https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/sum2020/entries/intuitionism-ethics/

    Thomson, J. J. (1976). Killing, letting die, and the trolley problem. The Monist, 59(2), 204–217. http://www.jstor.org/stable/27902416

    van Roojen, M. (2024). Moral cognitivism vs. non-cognitivism. In E. N. Zalta & U. Nodelman (Eds.), The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Summer 2024 Edition). https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/sum2024/entries/moral-cognitivism/
  • AmadeusD
    3.6k
    Approaching ethics from my own perspective, I find the field deeply problematic. Unlike other branches of philosophy, a systematic and formal treatment of ethics seems impossibleShowmee

    This seems true, and the basis of most moral debates.

    Yet, note how in ethical discussions, the validity of an argument or position is largely grounded in emotions and intuitions.Showmee

    I think this is going to ruffle feathers. Plenty here who are very sharp, well-read thinkers will balk at this, despite it being obvious from s 3p perspective. It almost always boils down to "Here's a proposition. If you disagree, i cannot understand your moral position". This is well captured by most non-cognitive theories. Very uncomfrotable for those deeply tied to their emotional reactions.

    often take the form of examples, analogies, or metaphors.Showmee

    IN fairness, even in light of your observations (which i largely can get on with) this is the only available way to talk about morality - testing intuitions. Principles wont/don't do despite kicking and screaming cognitivists. The 'principle' boils down to the above in every case I've ever seen. Carlo Alvaro has a paper about the 'incoherence of moral relativism'. It may be the worst paper i've ever read and I cannot understand how it was published - and this, largely, because of the two elements I've outlined here being ignored.

    Establishing a robust non-cognitivist stance requires not only destructive arguments, but also constructive ones—something current accounts fail to deliver satisfactorily.Showmee

    I think you're overdoing it. If the above observations (yours or mine) are right, then this is a non-interesting point to make. non-cognitivism doesn't require destructive arguments, other than comparatively. The arguments themselves are constructive, and obviously account for things like moral disagreement better than cognitivism. I also think this leapfrogs the problem. If there are to be moral 'facts' there must be a way to ascertain them. There isn't. So even if cognitivism about morality were, somehow, from a 'nowhere' view, correct, we couldn't actually argue for it as best I can tell.
    I agree we shouldn't overreach, but we are more than welcome to reject clearly untenable positions. All i think taking a non-cognitive approach to morality does is dispel the need to explore failing theories.

    But I do think we should all only have tentative moral positions, because of the above (which is not meant to be prescriptive, I just can't think of a better phrasing).
  • Astrophel
    663


    Answer me this: what is the nature of the "meta" in metaethics?
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    Approaching ethics from my own perspective, I find the field deeply problematic. Unlike other branches of philosophy, a systematic and formal treatment of ethics seems impossible.Showmee

    Morality/ethics doesn't strike me as a particularly exciting area. For now I see all our ideas of right and wrong as contingent; historical, cultural, and emotional in origin. So I suppose I’m a relativist, and I think most of our moral positions are grounded in sentiment not a transcendent source.

    But we can cobble together a kind of quasi-objective morality if we agree on a shared subjective aim, say, the minimisation of suffering. Once that aim is chosen, we can evaluate actions against it. But the foundation remains chosen, not discovered.

    Beyond that, I’m not especially concerned. Morality is, to me, a conversation that a society has with itself. We can trace where that evolving conversation has led, on questions like women’s rights, LGBTQ+ equality, the status of slavery, or capital punishment. These are negotiated over time, producing cultural consensus, always knowing that complete agreement is unlikely, if not impossible. And we can also go backwards - as we have seen.

    The standard comeback always seems to be: "If you're a relativist, then you can't be against murdering babies." But in reality, most relativists aren’t murdering babies. That argument is a bit of a strawman. Yes, historically and across cultures, infanticide has at times been accepted. But as a social species, we determine right and wrong through the practices we choose to support or reject. Personally, I’m good with being against baby murder. Moral relativism isn't the same thing as moral indifference, it means recognising that our judgments are grounded in human values not objective absolutes. A relativist can condemn baby killing from within multiple moral frameworks, each based upon different ethical commitments. The search for the one absolute foundational "this is wrong" seems futile.
  • Showmee
    23

    “Meta” is a prefix derived from the ancient Greek word μετά, which literally means “after.” In philosophical and broader academic contexts, however, it typically signifies an approach to a subject that emphasizes on reflection, transcendence, or taking a broader and often more abstract perspective. I mean you can understand it by taking a look at how it is used in the following examples: metanalysis, metaphysics, metalogic etc.

    So in this case specifically, ethics is the field concerning the normative nature of ethical propositions, whereas metaethics sort of "takes a step back" and asks more fundamental and essential questions pertaining to the ontology and epistemology of ethics.
  • Showmee
    23
    I think this has been—and perhaps still is—my intuitive stance: that different cultures develop distinct moral systems, but at the core of every system lie certain objective moral principles that are universal to all humans (e.g., that one should not kill an innocent person merely for personal pleasure). These fundamental moral principles are what philosophers are primarily interested in. They ask questions such as: Where do these principles come from? What is their metaphysical status? And how do we come to know them? The answers to these questions form the basis for the main metaethical positions mentioned in my essay: naturalism, intuitionism, non-cognitivism, and error theory. (There’s also subjectivism, but I don’t yet fully understand it.)

    Now, if I’ve learned one thing from philosophy, it’s to restrain myself from making belief-changing judgments before thoroughly exploring all the available information. While I, too, intuitively feel that moral propositions are artificially constructed and mind-dependent, it's still an interesting question to ask whether it might be the case that these principles possess the same degree of self-evidence and absolute certainty as logical or mathematical statements.

    I mean, is it really possible to imagine a world where people kill whenever they feel like it—and genuinely regard this as morally acceptable? Or is the concept of justice truly contingent, when it just feels inherently wrong for one of two equally qualified candidates to be chosen solely because she is a good friend of the selector?
  • Showmee
    23
    All i think taking a non-cognitive approach to morality does is dispel the need to explore failing theories.AmadeusD

    The [non-cornitivist] arguments themselves are constructive, and obviously account for things like moral disagreement better than cognitivism.AmadeusD


    I think there are actually plenty of problems that challenge the soundness of non-cognitivism. One of the most well-known objections is the Frege–Geach problem. If moral statements like "stealing is wrong" are indeed senseless or not truth-apt propositions, then how is it that we can still use them in semantically appropriate contexts where they serve as components of valid logical inferences? For instance, it makes perfect semantic sense to say:

    Stealing is wrong,
    and Johnny is stealing,
    So Johnny is doing something wrong.

    We know that for a conclusion to be valid, its premises must also be truth. But if we assume that "stealing is wrong" is not even a truth-apt statement, why does the conclusion still seem logically valid in the above argument? On the other hand, if we treat moral propositions as mere expressions of emotion, it wouldn’t make for a valid argument to say something like:

    Boo to stealing!
    Johnny is stealing,
    So Johnny is doing something wrong.

    Here is a nice quote from the book Ethical Intutionism to further elaborate the problem:

    Thus, suppose the non-cognitivist says “There’s a right way to handle this situation” means “There’s a way to handle this situation that I would approve of.” Now ask: Does “x is right,” by itself, mean “I would approve of x”?

    If the non-cognitivist says “yes,” then he has abandoned non-cognitivism in favor of subjectivism. “I would approve of x” is a factual claim, which is either true or false, not a non-cognitive utterance.

    If the non-cognitivist says “no,” then he must say that “right” shifts its meaning between the following two sentences:

    There is a right way to handle this situation.
    The right way to handle this situation is to draw straws to decide who gets on the lifeboats.

    In the first sentence, “right way” means “way that I would approve of,” but in the second sentence it supposedly functions to express a non-cognitive emotional attitude toward drawing straws. If so, then the second statement does not entail the first. But that’s false: “right” obviously has the same meaning in both sentences, and the latter sentence obviously entails the first.
    — Micheal Huemer
  • AmadeusD
    3.6k
    hen how is itShowmee

    This is just word use. It's not an argument for cognitivism. It just shows us that its logically possible that an objective ethic could exist. Practically, though, there is no reason to think this, on my view. I have never seen an argument that even starts the car. They all stop at "sentences make sense, and we can have sentences that proclaim moral fact". That's simply not an argument for the state of affairs in the claim.

    why does the conclusion still seem logically valid in the above argument?Showmee

    This isn't worth answering, in this context. It makes sense because words are designed to fit together, where they have coherence. It's also coherent to say

    unicorns exist
    Dan is a Unicorn
    Therefore, Dan exists.

    But that's totally confused as should be obvious. This is also true in your example, given that "is wrong" means nothing as a bare assertion, on my view.

    it wouldn’t make for a valid argument to say something like:Showmee

    No. But it would make entire sense to say

    Boo! Johnny is stealing (notice there must be a speaker here - this isn't a bare argument of logic anymore)
    Johnny is stealing.
    Therefore i think Johnny is doing something wrong.

    This is actually, on my view, the 'correct' way to make moral claims, given our lack of any reason to think there's something objective about that final statement. We just don't have a logical framework to ascertain any moral facts. Given that "fact", it seems fruitless to pretend we still have them.

    “I would approve of x” is a factual claim, which is either true or false, not a non-cognitive utterance. — Micheal Huemer

    But notice that claim isn't moral anymore. The non-cognitivist has not made any claim they cannot empirically support, which has no moral weight ("I believe this Unicorn is not Johnny" would be the same). I enjoy Heumer, but this is probably his least interesting area.

    latter sentence obviously entails the first — Micheal Huemer

    No, it doesn't, unless he's reading the same meaning into both uses of 'right'. In which case, non-cognitivism goes through. This just as inane as any other argument of the kind, unfortunately.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    Now, if I’ve learned one thing from philosophy, it’s to restrain myself from making belief-changing judgments before thoroughly exploring all the available information. While I, too, intuitively feel that moral propositions are artificially constructed and mind-dependent, it's still an interesting question to ask whether it might be the case that these principles possess the same degree of self-evidence and absolute certainty as logical or mathematical statements.Showmee

    Sure.

    I mean, is it really possible to imagine a world where people kill whenever they feel like it—and genuinely regard this as morally acceptable? Or is the concept of justice truly contingent, when it just feels inherently wrong for one of two equally qualified candidates to be chosen solely because she is a good friend of the selector?Showmee

    Well, those feelings, as you put it, don’t come out of nowhere. We are a social species who are raised to believe in the common good and right and wrong. So, we are primed for morality from the very start of life. It’s hardly surprising that we have built ethical scaffolding all around us. But you’ll note, over a century ago a woman with a job, for instance, was considered deviant and wrong. This was a feeling also. Today (unless you’re in some unsophisticated or uber religious part of the world), the idea of women with jobs is not seen as a moral problem. Humans make decisions based on frameworks and values and these are intrenched in our culture and language.
  • Showmee
    23
    But you’ll note, over a century ago a woman with a job, for instance, was considered deviant and wrong. This was a feeling also. Today (unless you’re in some unsophisticated or uber religious part of the world), the idea of women with jobs is not seen as a moral problem.Tom Storm


    The premise of gender equality is that all humans must be treated equally. From there, it is easy to construct the argument for feminism:

    All humans must be treated equally.
    Women are humans.
    Therefore, women ought to be treated equally.

    The problem with ancient or traditional moral systems is that our ancestors did not recognize the second premise as true. In essence, they regarded women as “sub-human.” As a character played by Jack Nicholson once quipped, when asked how he writes women: “I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.”

    I lay all this out to highlight that the first premise is more fundamental—an invariant moral principle that transcends both historical periods and cultural boundaries. It is precisely these kinds of foundational moral statements that I find most compelling.

    different cultures develop distinct moral systems, but at the core of every system lie certain objective moral principles that are universal to all humansShowmee

    So yes, one can imagine a society where women are treated as inferior and everyone believes this to be just (such societies have indeed existed). But to reject the fundamental proposition that all humans must be treated equally—while simultaneously acknowledging that minorities are fully human—seems less conceivable.
  • Astrophel
    663
    “Meta” is a prefix derived from the ancient Greek word μετά, which literally means “after.” In philosophical and broader academic contexts, however, it typically signifies an approach to a subject that emphasizes on reflection, transcendence, or taking a broader and often more abstract perspective. I mean you can understand it by taking a look at how it is used in the following examples: metanalysis, metaphysics, metalogic etc.

    So in this case specifically, ethics is the field concerning the normative nature of ethical propositions, whereas metaethics sort of "takes a step back" and asks more fundamental and essential questions pertaining to the ontology and epistemology of ethics.
    Showmee

    I would say that is good enough. When it comes to the normative "nature" of ethics, where does your thesis take us? You step back from normative entanglements, and this is a reductive step, meaning analysis is released from the normativity that issues from ideas and principles laid out everyday ethical issues, for these are suspended so as to get to more basic thinking, that is, thinking that is presupposed by those normal familiar matters of normativity. "Meta" is disclosed, as you say, as a stepping back from the familiar, and I am saying this moves is toward what is presupposed by the familiar, so to discover this, one has ask, what is presupposed in ethics? What IS it that is IN ethical normativity such that were it to be removed, ethicality itself would be removed?

    This is the question that takes one to metaethics. Looking toward the constitutive essence of something, what makes it what it IS, turns one away from the incidental (much in the way Kant turned away from instantiations of logic in ordinary language, to discover what made logic in ordinary affairs what it IS), or the "accidental" as they used to say, and move toward the essential, and this takes all analyses into metaphysics: What is in an ethical matter that, were it removed, the ethicality would vanish? Value. Value is the essence of ethics and aesthetics (see Wittgenstein, late in the Tractatus. He was right about this). No value, no ethics.

    So what is value?
  • Showmee
    23

    I would say that a value is a prescriptive idea that makes its possessor believe everyone else ought to approve of and adopt it.

    Values usually represent a transition from facts to rights, from what is desired to what is desirable. — Albert Camus
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    I lay all this out to highlight that the first premise is more fundamental—an invariant moral principle that transcends both historical periods and cultural boundaries. It is precisely these kinds of foundational moral statements that I find most compelling.Showmee

    I see where you are coming from.

    I don’t treat any of the premises as fundamental they’re all contingent. For example, if I caught someone invading my home, I might respond with force, possibly even lethally, depending on the circumstances.

    I think a common flaw here would be assuming that treating all people equally is anything more than a demonstration of a particular framework of values, one that happens to be embedded in contemporary Western culture. But it’s part of a broader conversation, and that discussion is about who gets to count as a citizen with rights. Yes, cis women. But what about trans women? Some people don’t even recognise them as such.

    And such advocacy of extended citizenship and solidarity, to use Rorty’s term, sits within a framework of cultural and linguistic practices. It is not something found outside of us as humans. We make agreements about values and develop practices, and these become embedded and sometimes appear to be immutable, but they are not.
  • Astrophel
    663
    I would say that a value is a prescriptive idea that makes its possessor believe everyone else ought to approve of and adopt it.Showmee

    But saying it's prescription and approval still begs the question, meaning it has presuppositional underpinnings, meaning you haven't yet reached the 'meta' of metaethics: What IS it that is the ground for prescription or approval? The thing that were it to be removed from the equation, ethicality itself would be removed. One can prescribe how to build a toaster, but this is not an ethical context, and so prescription cannot be the essence of ethics. One can approve of a sofa, but this will be based on descriptive contingencies of good and bad sofas. Certainly, ethical matters DO involve implicit prescription and approval/disapproval, as with the typical frustrations: should I return your ax to you if you demand it full of murderous intent? If you metaethically ground this on approval and prescription, you are bound to the general features of these, found in ethical and non ethical cases alike, and thereby ignore what gives the matter its very ethicality.
  • Astrophel
    663


    The question here is not about valueS. It is about value as such.
  • Astrophel
    663
    I lay all this out to highlight that the first premise is more fundamental—an invariant moral principle that transcends both historical periods and cultural boundaries. It is precisely these kinds of foundational moral statements that I find most compelling.

    different cultures develop distinct moral systems, but at the core of every system lie certain objective moral principles that are universal to all humans
    Showmee

    Moral principles that are universal?? Universal, meaning inviolable, apodictic as modus ponens. What could you possible have in mind? Remember, language itself is not this. This is why once post modern culture gets a hold of anything, it is open to ruin in the "play" of contingency. Gods become mere grist for the mill of irony, metaphor, exaggeration. Ask the masters of these, Monty Python, what it is they could never mock, deride, insult, deflate, and they will tell there is nothing that cannot be undone, for, I am saying, to speak AT ALL is to place what is spoken in the vast potentialities of possibilities of language and culture. This is, essentially, why Wittgenstein would not speak of ethics. Once philosophers get a hold of it, it falls into the analytic whim of possibilities, for philosophy is in its nature annihilative (see Simon Critchley's Little, Less, Nothing). And this is because language possesses it own annihilative possibilities. You leave a concept like 'truth' to be construed in terms of what propositions are and can do, and you are simply asking to be refuted.

    But then, place an episodically suffering child at the feet of John Cleese, and he will respond with the greatest urgency! No questions, no irony, no judgment. What does this tell you about the "meta" of metaethics?
  • Astrophel
    663
    I think a common flaw here would be assuming that treating all people equally is anything more than a demonstration of a particular framework of values, one that happens to be embedded in contemporary Western culture. But it’s part of a broader conversation, and that discussion is about who gets to count as a citizen with rights. Yes, cis women. But what about trans women? Some people don’t even recognise them as such.

    And such advocacy of extended citizenship and solidarity, to use Rorty’s term, sits within a framework of cultural and linguistic practices. It is not something found outside of us as humans. We make agreements about values and develop practices, and these become embedded and sometimes appear to be immutable, but they are not.
    Tom Storm

    I think treating all people equally is, as you say, only contingently viable, as one can imagine all sorts of ways to make strong cases for not doing so. You know, it depends! It is impossible to conceive of moral entanglements to iron out in logical perfection. Even logic doesn't iron out like this (this sentence is false. And ask, while logic seems it cannot be gainsaid, how about the language that is used as the medium of its expression? Is this not historical and contingent?).

    You and Rorty are right, but I think not entirely. Rorty also argues for solidarity. See what Simon Critchley says about Rorty in "Deconstruction and Pragmatism - is Derrida a Private Ironist or a Public Libera!?": "A liberal ironist, someone who is committed to social justice and appalled by cruelty, but who recognizes that there is no metaphysical foundation to her concern for justice." Thus, Rorty is going to argue that being kind to one another does not need religion to back it up, for it is built into, and inevitable in, a pragmatic social evolvement.
    But I say Rorty misses the point, and the point is genuine metaethics that is both foundation of ethics, and is transcendental: ethics as such transcends reduction to what can be said about ethics. Rorty's failing lies in his commitment to propositional truth, that is, truth is what sentences have, not the world. But this truth is derivative OF the world, and thus, the world has to be understood inits ethical dimension, not in the finitude of language.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    And ask, while logic seems it cannot be gainsaid, how about the language that is used as the medium of its expression? Is this not historical and contingent?).Astrophel

    Indeed. And I have to say, contradictions and endless regress don’t often worry me much.

    Thus, Rorty is going to argue that being kind to one another does not need religion to back it up, for it is built into, and inevitable in, a pragmatic social evolvement.Astrophel

    Yes, I’ve found Rorty, in as much as I can follow his thinking, compelling on this point. But probably because intuitively I have come to similar conclusion. While he may have his limitations, as a non-philosopher, I leave that to the academics and theory geeks to sort out.

    But I say Rorty misses the point, and the point is genuine metaethics that is both foundation of ethics, and is transcendental: ethics as such transcends reduction to what can be said about ethics. Rorty's failing lies in his commitment to propositional truth, that is, truth is what sentences have, not the world. But this truth is derivative OF the world, and thus, the world has to be understood inits ethical dimension, not in the finitude of language.Astrophel

    Not sure I follow your wording. Are you saying that Rorty is too caught up in language to see that ethics comes from a deeper, more fundamental source, something beyond what we can put into words? Or something like that? Could you restate it more simply? I think we’ve tried to explore this notion of the transcendenal before, but we might be too far apart to get anywhere with it. As a non-philosopher, I take some responsibility for that. I am assuming you take the transcendental to mean something similar to Husserl's notion of the conditions of consciousness that make morality and meaning possible?
  • I like sushi
    5.2k
    I will defo get around to this. Reading something at the moment by Shelly Kagan that will probably relate to this.
  • Astrophel
    663
    Not sure I follow your wording. Are you saying that Rorty is too caught up in language to see that ethics comes from a deeper, more fundamental source, something beyond what we can put into words? Or something like that? Could you restate it more simply? I think we’ve tried to explore this notion of the transcendent before, but we might be too far apart to get anywhere with it. As a non-philosopher, I take some responsibility for that.Tom Storm

    Restate it more simply? It's not really an argument. It is something that is there, and has always been there, but is ignored. Two questions; no three, though one is essentially the same as another: What is the essence of the good and the bad? And, what makes the world knowable, which is the same as the question, what IS the world? You will find John Mackie, whose Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong is all over the OP, has no serious appreciation for questions like this, because analytic philosophy doesn't talk about ethics, epistemology and ontology at the basic level, the level that belong exclusively to philosophy. Anglo-American philosophy students are left with an education in philosophy that does not touch the most essentially philosophical questions in existence.

    The good and the bad: what IS this? How are knowledge claims about the world actually about the world? What IS the world? If you are looking for some clarity about this notion of the transcendent, you will find these questions to be the source of it all.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    Restate it more simply? It's not really an argument.Astrophel

    I wasn’t saying you made an argument. Your writing was just opaque to me, so I was trying to get you to express it more clearly, particulary for those who don't necessarily share your background.

    And, what makes the world knowable, which is the same as the question, what IS the world?Astrophel

    I’d say the world is not 'knowable'. We can live. do and make things, but when it comes to 'knowable,' I'm not sure what that even means. I don't think our human truths map onto some eternal reality.

    Anglo-American philosophy students are left with an education in philosophy that does not touch the most essentially philosophical questions in existence.Astrophel

    That's frequently observed by the Continentals, but my background is 1) not in philosophy, and 2) neither Anglo nor American. And I get that philosophy is vast and there are differing approaches that are like oil and water to each other.

    The good and the bad: what IS this? How are knowledge claims about the world actually about the world? What IS the world?Astrophel

    Well, as I wrote earlier, for me, they’re not so much about the world itself; they’re about our relationship with experience, and it’s contingent; connected to consciousness, language, and culture. But feel free to say more about this. Are you more interested in exploring these questions further, or would you prefer to leave it?

    I'm not a phenomenologist, but for Husserl, for instance (and this is a reductive account) I understand the term transcendental refers to the conditions within consciousness that make moral experience and meaning possible. However, it seems later phenomenologists, Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty somewhat were at odds with Husserl’s notion of the transcendental, arguing instead that meaning and ethics arise from our embodied, situated existence in the world rather than from a detached, pure consciousness model.

    Is this where you are suggesting we look?
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    4.1k


    One difficulty that jumped out to me is that, despite ending with the quote from Socrates, Greek ethics is not addressed. Neither is traditional Christian ethics, nor are the ethical philosophies of Islamic thinkers or any points further East. Instead, the analysis is of modern Anglo-empiricist thought, going as far back as Hume.

    Hence, any judgement about realism is only going to apply to narrow stretch or thought. More importantly, it's a stretch of thought that shares epistemic and ethical presuppositions that are challenged in other traditions. Of course, ethics is very broad, do this might not be as big of an issue depending on the audience.

    For instance, we might find it pretty strange that no one noticed Hume's Guillotine across millennia of thought, until we realize that the Guillotine itself requires certain assumptions to work (assumptions that arguably beg the question re anti-realism). Given any robust notion of final causality, that status of the Guillotine is far less clear, but of course Hume himself is dealing with an extremely deflated notion of causation to begin with, because that's the tradition he inherited. Yet it's a tradition based on presuppositions we might be liable to doubt today.

    Just for an quick example, the idea that ethics is about some sort of sui generis "moral good," a sheer "thou shalt" of duty (without reference to desire and what is "truly desirable" or "best for us") is product of Reformation theology (beginning with late medieval volanturism and nominalism). It's alien to earlier Western ethics and to a great deal of contemporary ethics that doesn't follow the analytic tradition.

    So, anti-realism here would tend to mean a blanket denial of value tout court. There is no good or bad, period. But this seems difficult to maintain.

    From another post:

    Consider the oppositions' case (and it's worth noting that the opposition is quite diverse, running from New Atheists like Sam Harris to contemporary Thomists). It seems obvious that there are empirical facts about what is good for us. For instance:
    • It is bad for children to have lead dumped into their school lunches.
    • It is bad for people to be kidnapped, tortured, and enslaved.
    • It is bad for a fox to have its leg mangled in a trap.
    • It is bad for citizens of a country to experience a large-scale economic depression.

    There are also empirical facts about values involving social conventions. E.g. "Gary Kasparov is better at chess than the average preschooler."

    It seems fairly obvious that the truth of such statements is something that we can discover through the empirical sciences, the senses, etc. To insist otherwise is to insist that medicine, veterinary science, biology, welfare economics, etc. never provide us with information about what is truly good or bad for humans or other living things.

    Now, the Humean will often try to counter here in two ways. First, they will try to move to universal maxims, with the Enlightenment assumption that ethics must be formulated in terms of universal maxims. So, they might claim: "ok, maybe you can reason from empirical observations to the fact that being lit on fire is bad for you, but you can hardly move from this to 'no one should light another on fire.'" But such a move simply defaults on the is-ought gap, since it allows that we can still reason from:

    P1. The effects of burning are bad for me (i.e. burning is not choice-worthy).
    P2. If I throw myself into the fire, I shall burn.
    C. I ought not choose to throw myself into the fire.

    The Humean might object that we need some sort of additional "ought premise" here, something along the lines of:

    We should choose what is truly better over what is truly worse. That is, we should choose what is truly choice-worthy.

    This seems completely unnecessary to me, since to be (truly) better, i.e., to be (truly) more choice-worthy, simply is to be what ought to be chosen. Further, it certainly seems that empirical sciences such as medicine, vetinary science, etc. can at least sometimes tell us about what is truly choice-worthy. Someone committed to the Guillotine can, of course, object to this. They can claim that there simply are no "facts of the matter" about what is truly choice-worthy, or that such facts must be always be epistemically inaccessible. Fair enough. I think that is a hard position to defend, but at least now the particular brand of anti-realism/skepticism that underlies the Guillotine is explicit.


    Here is the rest of the post: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/971888


    Of course, someone from the modern Anglo-empiricist tradition might try to claim that ethics is properly only about a sui generis "moral good." Fair enough. But then they have to justify this distinction and explain what makes the "moral good" unique and discreet. Yet this tends to be extremely difficult to impossible (as your post helps to indicate ). Indeed, the reason the anti-realist in the modern tradition has such a strong case is precisely because this notion of a unique "moral good."

    Just consider what it would mean to deny values if we weren't separating off a sort of discrete "moral value." If practical reasoning (about good and bad) is not distinct from moral reasoning (about good and evil) and we deny practical reason, then we are denying that truth can ever be truly "better" than falsity, that good faith argument is better than bad faith argument, that invalid argument and obfuscation of this is ever worse than clear, valid argument, etc. Having taken away all values, argument, the search for truth, etc. seems to boil down to "whatever gets me whatever it happens to be that I currently desire."

    It also seems that this would make us infallible as to what is truly best for us, as "truly best," or "better" just mean "I currently prefer." Hence, things would change their practical value as we changed our minds about what we prefer. For instance, extra tequilas shot for us late at night would be good when we were feeling no pain and desired them, and then the self-same event would become "bad" when we woke up hung over in the morning. Arguably, this destroys reason as a whole, not just practical, but theoretical and aesthetic as well.

    Also as I've written before re virtue ethics:

    Hence, we can ask: “is it not true, at least on average, ceteris paribus, that it is better for people to be temperate instead of gluttonous or anhedonic, courageous instead of brash or cowardly, properly ambitious instead of grasping or apathetic, etc.? A strong rebuttal of virtue ethics would need to show that these traits are not beneficial on average, or that we somehow equivocate on these terms when we move from culture to culture. Yet this does not seem to be an easy case to make. To be sure, the critic can point to instances where “bad things happen to virtuous people,” or vice versa, but everyone is exposed to the vicissitudes of fortune, and it is the virtuous person who is most able to weather bad fortune (and in an important sense, most self-determining and most free).

    It's worth noting here that forms of virtue ethics predominate not just in the West (Pagan and Christian), but also in the East (Islam, India, China, etc.) despite getting short shrift in many analytic treatments.

    Now that's just bringing in another perspective, one I happen to be partial to. If you're interested, Alasdair MacIntyre's After Virtue is one classical case for this sort of idea that is fairly recent and engages with the tradition you mentioned. Something to note here is that these theorists tend to agree with the case for error theory and various anti-realisms, but claim that the starting presuppositions that result in these conclusions are wrong. They also tend to point out that the open endedness identified by Moore holds for theoretical and aesthetic reason as well, and follows points made by Plato and those following him re the transcendence, and thus "defenselessness" of reason.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    4.1k


    ↪Astrophel
    I would say that a value is a prescriptive idea that makes its possessor believe everyone else ought to approve of and adopt it.

    Well, consider that:

    - It is bad for human beings to be lit on fire; and
    - It is bad for a bear to have its leg mangled in a bear trap

    ...are both statements about value, facts about what is bad for something, and yet neither is prescriptive. The prescriptive could be seen as derivative of such facts, since clearly we will prefer the better to the worse and want to achieve better ends and avoid worse ones.
  • I like sushi
    5.2k
    One small mistake (in terms of concise writing) that stuck out was the repetition of the quote from Mackie refer to universality. Other than that my main criticism of this piece would have to be you tried to cram in too much with too few words.

    All that said, I found it a pretty decent read. I have more to ask and discuss but for the mean time I have a couple of reading suggestions.

    1) Bernard Williams, 'Ethics and the Limits of Philosophy'

    2) Ian McGilchrist, 'The Matter With Things' - something I have just started reading.

    Note: I am also reading Shelly Kegan's 'Answering Moral Skepticism' and paying particular attention to his views against non-cognitivism.
  • Showmee
    23


    It is bad for children to have lead dumped into their school lunches.
    It is bad for people to be kidnapped, tortured, and enslaved.
    It is bad for a fox to have its leg mangled in a trap.
    It is bad for citizens of a country to experience a large-scale economic depression.
    [...]
    It seems fairly obvious that the truth of such statements is something that we can discover through the empirical sciences, the senses, etc. To insist otherwise is to insist that medicine, veterinary science, biology, welfare economics, etc. never provide us with information about what is truly good or bad for humans or other living things.
    Count Timothy von Icarus

    I think it is unfair to claim that these cases are facts that can be discovered through empirical sciences. While they strike us as merely descriptive propositions, there are implicit value prescriptions in the presumption of each case. For example, let us take the case that 'it is bad for the fox to have its leg mangled in a trap.' The truly descriptive proposition is 'having its leg mangled in a trap decreases the fox's probability of survival.' To say that this is 'bad' for the fox presumes that survival is something worth pursuing. The same presumption about the value of survival is present in the case of 'it is bad for people to be kidnapped, tortured and enslaved,' because these conditions increase the likelihood of death. So if one is to claim these as facts, then one must first accept certain presumed values, such as that survival is worth pursuing. Therefore, to merely use the words "good" or "bad" is to presume that they are meaningful terms and that they refer to some definition. Even in philosophical discussions, when we say an argument is "bad", what we really want to say is that this argument does not meet the criteria of logical coherence, which is already something we think worth pursuing (I will expand a bit on this later).


    Further, it certainly seems that empirical sciences such as medicine, vetinary science, etc. can at least sometimes tell us about what is truly choice-worthy.Count Timothy von Icarus

    I don't think you can just assume that there are things that are choice-worthy, and by observing that empirical sciences can be used as a tool to direct us towards these "things," conclude that empirical sciences discover moral facts. I'm not saying that these choice-worthy things are purely subjective. Take survival, for instance: it is something deemed worth pursuing by all humans, if not all animals. But just because we have the intuition and desire to survive does not mean "one must pursue survival" is a fact.

    So I think the reasoning:

    P1. The effects of burning are bad for me (i.e. burning is not choice-worthy).
    P2. If I throw myself into the fire, I shall burn.
    C. I ought not choose to throw myself into the fire.
    Count Timothy von Icarus

    is not valid on the ground that P1 is not true (at least without first examining the implicit value prescription i.e. avoid pain is good), and thus cannot be used to construct a valid argument.

    Just consider what it would mean to deny values if we weren't separating off a sort of discrete "moral value." If practical reasoning (about good and bad) is not distinct from moral reasoning (about good and evil) and we deny practical reason, then we are denying that truth can ever be truly "better" than falsity, that good faith argument is better than bad faith argument, that invalid argument and obfuscation of this is ever worse than clear, valid argument, etc. Having taken away all values, argument, the search for truth, etc. seems to boil down to "whatever gets me whatever it happens to be that I currently desire."Count Timothy von Icarus

    I see no problem with saying that the entirety of philosophy is based on the assumption that truth is worth pursuing (if I had to). The fact that the pursuit of truth is a subjective desire has no bearing on the validity of a person’s arguments. Ultimately, pursuing truth could just be simply an activity people choose to engage in, regardless of its deeper meaning. I take the same view with respect to morality: if morality is something inherent to human nature, then I will practice it (which I do, just fyi). But that does not automatically make morality a fact, and to claim that it is already presupposes that truth is worth pursuing. Therefore, I believe one can practice morality without regarding it as objective truth, just as one can practice philosophy without viewing it as objectively superior.
  • Showmee
    23


    because analytic philosophy doesn't talk about ethics, epistemology and ontology at the basic level, the level that belong exclusively to philosophy.Astrophel

    Could you elaborate on the "basic level" you are referring to, I am really curious about it.

    Moral principles that are universal??Astrophel

    I think this is a misunderstanding. From previous conversations with Tom, I used the word "universal" not to mean necessary in a logical sense, but to indicate that it is objective, namely something that is shared by all humans.

    but at the core of every system lie certain objective moral principles that are universal to all humans (e.g., that one should not kill an innocent person merely for personal pleasure).Showmee

    ethics as such transcends reduction to what can be said about ethics. Rorty's failing lies in his commitment to propositional truth, that is, truth is what sentences have, not the world. But this truth is derivative OF the world, and thus, the world has to be understood inits ethical dimension, not in the finitude of language.Astrophel

    I’m not sure if you’re adopting the stance of the early Wittgenstein, but one thing I don’t understand is whether he’s smuggling in a kind of metaphysical realism about subjects that transcend language and logic. When he says ethics is “nonsensical”—which, by his picture theory, means it cannot be represented within the space of possible states of affairs—what is he really trying to show? Do they exist or not exist or cannot be known?
  • AmadeusD
    3.6k
    an invariant moral principleShowmee

    This is highly variable and context-dependent, though. That's why it's clear 'facts' aren't in the area to me. All of these types of statements are obviously no invariant, or universal. Then or now.

    I see this has been gone over, though. Just want to add that something being admittedly "bad" is not a good reason to not do it as far as justifications go.
  • Astrophel
    663
    Is this where you are suggesting we look?Tom Storm

    A bit much, below. Got carried away.

    That's the rub, isn't it. Someone like Simon Critchley has read everything and yet talks like a nihilist in league with Rorty, who would say he is not a nihilist at all. He thinks nihilism is born out of a lot of ancient thinking that has reached its end, along with philosophy itself. But then take someone like John Caputo, who has also read everything and he comes out swinging for a metaphysical religious affirmatio, and he takes Derrida as a closet metaphysician. I think one emerges from all this thinking with a bent towards what one already IS coming into it. I, for one, learned analytic thinking long before I had every read Heidegger of Husserl, and it left me entirely disillusioned. Gettier problems? Really? This is what epistemologists think about, and not the foundational relationship that is the ground for knowing? Quine? Ryle? Brilliant thinkers, and reading them inspires admiration, but they do not affirm metaphysics as even "existing" and one is left with arguments without meaning, or arguments whose meaning has no meaning, and they would applaud this (Wittgensteinian) characterization because they are all philosophical nihilists, and they are this way because, I argue, analytic philosophy is inherently negative, and they cannot see the apriority of existence as such, the necessity that our existence IS which is not derivative, not discursively achieved even though "discovered" in language. What IS our existence? It sounds at once vague and outside of reasonable thought, but this is because existence is taken as an abstraction, just as a term like being of reality: Just empty concepts, a nothing, which is not a category and so categorical errors cannot be said of it because it stands against no other concepts: a radical existential indeterminacy; but this kind of thinking is completely misled by a fundamental "categorical" error itself, that arises simply out of a failure to observe what lies befor one's waking analytic eyes-- two things: first, this indeterminacy IS our existence, and it is where philosophy meets the pavement, so to speak. it is where philosophy belongs in the affirmative effort to bring to light the world as it IS. The world is most emphatically NOT an argument in its ground, but is entirely alien to everydayness, into which we are "thrown". You mentioned Husserl's infamous epoche. This is the method of discovery that is at the heart of phenomenological thought, yet see how it is derided by analytic thinkers, mostly because these are smart people who are relatively affectively and intuitively vacuous, and, like Dennett, treat philosophy as if it were an empirical science. Second, it is never nothing, but is saturated with meaning, that is, value. Value permeates existence.

    So having said this, consider that all of this thinking will eventually come to a single insight: that propositi0onal truth has no intrinsic value, and yet to seek at all is value driven, meaning one is excited, fascinated, longing for, seeking, needing, desiring, wondering, about the nature of happiness and horror, and THIS is what is the first impulse that drives philosophy; yet truth is defined in terms of propositional truth, which meets excitement, wonder and this whole affective dimension of our existence that is poised for consummation (you know, the desideratum and the ideatum, the ground of religion) with a concept of what this is all about that is sterile and existentially deflated. As far as I am concerned, analytic philosophers are just a bunch of pathological post Kantians, who have entirely lost the sense of what it is to be human (yes, of course, there are exceptions), thinking the Truth lies in a truth table, an argument, and well drawn up theses. At heart, logicians. Might as well be mathematicians.

    So if you've read this far, then I guess I should answer your question, Where does one look? See Heidegger's Time. Look closely at this thinking (which has a history, of course, beginning with Augustine's Confessions" bk 11). You say you are not a philosopher, well neither am I. I first picked Being and Time when I was 57. See Division 2, Section 64 or so, and onward. Fascinating to read, but the point I would make is that for Heidegger, one's existence IS Time: the coming to be of the "having been" in a dynamic present which is (should be) our freedom that is essentially forward looking (for the sake of) A liner and sequential concept of time he calls "vulgar" and he can't be anything but right about this analysis, for no one modality of time can be conceived apart from the others. Try it, and you'll see that Time really is a UNITY, and its modalities are only ontically conceivable, meaning in general affairs time is divided, but go deeper and divisions self destruct. So what does this have to do with transcendence? What is it that literally constitutes one's existence? It is the "having been" of one's life, and the more distended the present moment, that is, the more the past of an occurrent present sits as an established foundation for interpretative possibilities, the more entrenched in ontic (everyday) time one is, the more "solidly" one exists (I am arguing about Heidegger's position), according to Heidegger, and you can see how this finitizes what a person IS: It makes our existence essentially historical, but here Heidegger is a bit like Kant, isn't he?: on the onehand, if you are committed to an analysis of human existence that ignores non-historical possibilities, you delimit our essence to language and culture (the very thing Kierkegaard calls inherited sin), while structural descriptions belong to ontology, a narrowly appreciated body of ideas; but on the other hand, if you see that Heidegger's finitude possesses these threshold features, as those found with Time, that insist that there is a dimension to our existence that is entirely "other" than this historical finitude (the past), then you open a door for metaphysicians like me (needless to say, my thinking is derivative: Michel Henry, Jean Luc Marion, Jean Luc Nancy, Emanuel Levinas--all, here and there, a tough read, indeed).

    But now remove Heidegger and the rest, and just conceive the existence you are in. You do Husserl's epoche (this epoche is a METHOD, not just and idea. It needs to be practiced, like a Buddhist practices meditation, not merely argued), and all you know about the world is suspended. Everything, save the purity of presence itself (the Buddhist's ideal: nirvana). To do this, you need to erase Heidegger's self, and all of those historical "having beens" of your world are marginalized, and you no longer have an identity at all. This is, for me, where transcendence begins: to perceive the world that has been rigorously liberated from Heidegger's "the they" (the finite totality of what can possibly be meaningful for a person and her languge and culture) altogether, yet not leaving it at all, for without the they, agency itself is lost. Sounds paradoxical, but it isn't.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    Oh, this is great. Thank you. Let me mull over it. Will return.
  • Tom Storm
    10.2k
    There seem to be religious yearnings in the frame you have presented. In relation to Caputo one might hold that his weaving of postmodern ideas back into the religion of his upbringing has an inevitability about it. Is his experince similar to yours? It often seems to me that people assiduously look for new (or perhaps less familiar) reasons to believe old ideas.

    . I think one emerges from all this thinking with a bent towards what one already IS coming into it.Astrophel

    Yes, I think that's fair. Philosophy reflects one's disposition.

    ...that arises simply out of a failure to observe what lies befor one's waking analytic eyes-- two things: first, this indeterminacy IS our existence, and it is where philosophy meets the pavement, so to speak. it is where philosophy belongs in the affirmative effort to bring to light the world as it IS. The world is most emphatically NOT an argument in its ground, but is entirely alien to everydayness, into which we are "thrown".Astrophel

    I’m reminded of theologian and philosopher David Bentley Hart who writes that when consciousness is freed from ego, distraction, and fragmentation, it encounters reality as inherently good and radiant. Bliss isn’t something added to existence, it is woven into its nature. Hart often stresses that the fact anything exists rather than nothing presents us with a kind of metaphysical astonishment, something so basic we usually miss the strangeness of it. Are you sympathetic to this, or is it straying too far into a specific religious mystical tradition?

    . As far as I am concerned, analytic philosophers are just a bunch of pathological post Kantians, who have entirely lost the sense of what it is to be human (yes, of course, there are exceptions), thinking the Truth lies in a truth table, an argument, and well drawn up theses. At heart, logicians. Might as well be mathematicians.Astrophel

    I take it this is at the heart of your thinking - this and the notion that whatever is transcendent is found in the immediate experince of being - that which seeks, wonders, hopes, dreams, desires...

    This is, for me, where transcendence begins: to perceive the world that has been rigorously liberated from Heidegger's "the they" (the finite totality of what can possibly be meaningful for a person and her languge and culture) altogether, yet not leaving it at all, for without the they, agency itself is lost.Astrophel

    This could also be said to be heading toward mysticism and non-dualism, with the notion that the self (understood misleadingly as a product of culture, language, and upbringing) can be stripped of conceptual overlays and ego to realize true freedom. Or at least a new starting point. What is the next step, I wonder?

    What do you think your understanding says about morality?
  • Astrophel
    663
    Could you elaborate on the "basic level" you are referring to, I am really curious about it.Showmee

    Ask, what is the Good? Its essence: that without which it would cease being the Good? Without the Good or the Bad, ethics stops being what it is, and I would say this is critical, not so much if you are Mill or Bentham or Kant who talk about right actions and how to find them, but for you putting together an ontology of ethics. This ontology is presupposed by philosophers, but sorely neglected. The question, says Dietrich von Hildebrand, is about importance itself. And see Max Scheler 's Formalism in Ethics and Non Formal Ethics and Value where he criticizes Kant's complete absence of qualitative content. He says ethics "could have only empirical and inductive validity" with Kant because he ties value to use and purpose, and ignores the central question: What IS the Good that is presupposed in a good chair or a good plan for the future? Good knives are sharp, but for Macbeth, a sharp knife could be dangerous to a player on the stage, so what IS a good knife given that so many different contexts exist that could redefine what good is? It is no one thing, that's what, and so Kant rejects qualities because they are variable. But Scheler wants to tell us valueS vary, but value as such is like logic, and by abstracting from the incidentals of normal affairs to discover its essence, one sees structure in logic, but with value the difference is momentous: value as such is IN the palpable world's feels and manifest qualities, and is not the mere "form" of things. Value is IN the world (notwithstanding Wittgenstein's Tractatus), and its "importance" defines our existence AS metaphysically important.

    So what is value as such? Put a lighted match to your finger a second or so. Now you know. But this is not propositional knowledge, meaning its identity is not bound up with other language, but issues forth fromthe world. Ask what a bank teller is, and one's answer will go on eternally, for what a bank teller IS refers to other words, and their accounts, and these refer/defer to others yet. This is what beingS are "made of". Literally made of language, for ask what anything IS, and it will be language that responds. (This is a theme of post modern thinkers like Blanchot and Beckett and Levinas and Derrida, et al). But ask what is bad about your injured finger, and conversation really has no place. One could talk about it, of course, the intensity, position, cause, and so on, but this does not speak at all as to what pain IS. If something is there, but cannot be spoken, both! then you have encountered metaphysics. This si why analytic philosophers will not discuss metaethics properly: they will not concede to a metaphysical metaethics. This is Mackie's brilliant error in his error theory: metaethics IS the apodictic ground of all ethical issues; it is just that its discovery and essence is noncognitive. He treats ethics in that book only as something that philosophers can talk about, and his opposition consists of thinking of ethics the way one would answer the question about the essence of a bank teller (above).

    Of course, epistemology and ontology are equally enigmatic. And what is ethics if not a knowledge claim? And what is ethics if not what it IS? Metaphysics is not some impossible beyond. It is the impossible beyond that subsumes finitude. There are no divisions.
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