Approaching ethics from my own perspective, I find the field deeply problematic. Unlike other branches of philosophy, a systematic and formal treatment of ethics seems impossible — Showmee
Yet, note how in ethical discussions, the validity of an argument or position is largely grounded in emotions and intuitions. — Showmee
often take the form of examples, analogies, or metaphors. — Showmee
Establishing a robust non-cognitivist stance requires not only destructive arguments, but also constructive ones—something current accounts fail to deliver satisfactorily. — Showmee
Approaching ethics from my own perspective, I find the field deeply problematic. Unlike other branches of philosophy, a systematic and formal treatment of ethics seems impossible. — Showmee
All i think taking a non-cognitive approach to morality does is dispel the need to explore failing theories. — AmadeusD
The [non-cornitivist] arguments themselves are constructive, and obviously account for things like moral disagreement better than cognitivism. — AmadeusD
Thus, suppose the non-cognitivist says “There’s a right way to handle this situation” means “There’s a way to handle this situation that I would approve of.” Now ask: Does “x is right,” by itself, mean “I would approve of x”?
If the non-cognitivist says “yes,” then he has abandoned non-cognitivism in favor of subjectivism. “I would approve of x” is a factual claim, which is either true or false, not a non-cognitive utterance.
If the non-cognitivist says “no,” then he must say that “right” shifts its meaning between the following two sentences:
There is a right way to handle this situation.
The right way to handle this situation is to draw straws to decide who gets on the lifeboats.
In the first sentence, “right way” means “way that I would approve of,” but in the second sentence it supposedly functions to express a non-cognitive emotional attitude toward drawing straws. If so, then the second statement does not entail the first. But that’s false: “right” obviously has the same meaning in both sentences, and the latter sentence obviously entails the first. — Micheal Huemer
hen how is it — Showmee
why does the conclusion still seem logically valid in the above argument? — Showmee
it wouldn’t make for a valid argument to say something like: — Showmee
“I would approve of x” is a factual claim, which is either true or false, not a non-cognitive utterance. — Micheal Huemer
latter sentence obviously entails the first — Micheal Huemer
Now, if I’ve learned one thing from philosophy, it’s to restrain myself from making belief-changing judgments before thoroughly exploring all the available information. While I, too, intuitively feel that moral propositions are artificially constructed and mind-dependent, it's still an interesting question to ask whether it might be the case that these principles possess the same degree of self-evidence and absolute certainty as logical or mathematical statements. — Showmee
I mean, is it really possible to imagine a world where people kill whenever they feel like it—and genuinely regard this as morally acceptable? Or is the concept of justice truly contingent, when it just feels inherently wrong for one of two equally qualified candidates to be chosen solely because she is a good friend of the selector? — Showmee
But you’ll note, over a century ago a woman with a job, for instance, was considered deviant and wrong. This was a feeling also. Today (unless you’re in some unsophisticated or uber religious part of the world), the idea of women with jobs is not seen as a moral problem. — Tom Storm
different cultures develop distinct moral systems, but at the core of every system lie certain objective moral principles that are universal to all humans — Showmee
“Meta” is a prefix derived from the ancient Greek word μετά, which literally means “after.” In philosophical and broader academic contexts, however, it typically signifies an approach to a subject that emphasizes on reflection, transcendence, or taking a broader and often more abstract perspective. I mean you can understand it by taking a look at how it is used in the following examples: metanalysis, metaphysics, metalogic etc.
So in this case specifically, ethics is the field concerning the normative nature of ethical propositions, whereas metaethics sort of "takes a step back" and asks more fundamental and essential questions pertaining to the ontology and epistemology of ethics. — Showmee
Values usually represent a transition from facts to rights, from what is desired to what is desirable. — Albert Camus
I lay all this out to highlight that the first premise is more fundamental—an invariant moral principle that transcends both historical periods and cultural boundaries. It is precisely these kinds of foundational moral statements that I find most compelling. — Showmee
I would say that a value is a prescriptive idea that makes its possessor believe everyone else ought to approve of and adopt it. — Showmee
I lay all this out to highlight that the first premise is more fundamental—an invariant moral principle that transcends both historical periods and cultural boundaries. It is precisely these kinds of foundational moral statements that I find most compelling.
different cultures develop distinct moral systems, but at the core of every system lie certain objective moral principles that are universal to all humans — Showmee
I think a common flaw here would be assuming that treating all people equally is anything more than a demonstration of a particular framework of values, one that happens to be embedded in contemporary Western culture. But it’s part of a broader conversation, and that discussion is about who gets to count as a citizen with rights. Yes, cis women. But what about trans women? Some people don’t even recognise them as such.
And such advocacy of extended citizenship and solidarity, to use Rorty’s term, sits within a framework of cultural and linguistic practices. It is not something found outside of us as humans. We make agreements about values and develop practices, and these become embedded and sometimes appear to be immutable, but they are not. — Tom Storm
And ask, while logic seems it cannot be gainsaid, how about the language that is used as the medium of its expression? Is this not historical and contingent?). — Astrophel
Thus, Rorty is going to argue that being kind to one another does not need religion to back it up, for it is built into, and inevitable in, a pragmatic social evolvement. — Astrophel
But I say Rorty misses the point, and the point is genuine metaethics that is both foundation of ethics, and is transcendental: ethics as such transcends reduction to what can be said about ethics. Rorty's failing lies in his commitment to propositional truth, that is, truth is what sentences have, not the world. But this truth is derivative OF the world, and thus, the world has to be understood inits ethical dimension, not in the finitude of language. — Astrophel
Not sure I follow your wording. Are you saying that Rorty is too caught up in language to see that ethics comes from a deeper, more fundamental source, something beyond what we can put into words? Or something like that? Could you restate it more simply? I think we’ve tried to explore this notion of the transcendent before, but we might be too far apart to get anywhere with it. As a non-philosopher, I take some responsibility for that. — Tom Storm
Restate it more simply? It's not really an argument. — Astrophel
And, what makes the world knowable, which is the same as the question, what IS the world? — Astrophel
Anglo-American philosophy students are left with an education in philosophy that does not touch the most essentially philosophical questions in existence. — Astrophel
The good and the bad: what IS this? How are knowledge claims about the world actually about the world? What IS the world? — Astrophel
Consider the oppositions' case (and it's worth noting that the opposition is quite diverse, running from New Atheists like Sam Harris to contemporary Thomists). It seems obvious that there are empirical facts about what is good for us. For instance:
Hence, we can ask: “is it not true, at least on average, ceteris paribus, that it is better for people to be temperate instead of gluttonous or anhedonic, courageous instead of brash or cowardly, properly ambitious instead of grasping or apathetic, etc.? A strong rebuttal of virtue ethics would need to show that these traits are not beneficial on average, or that we somehow equivocate on these terms when we move from culture to culture. Yet this does not seem to be an easy case to make. To be sure, the critic can point to instances where “bad things happen to virtuous people,” or vice versa, but everyone is exposed to the vicissitudes of fortune, and it is the virtuous person who is most able to weather bad fortune (and in an important sense, most self-determining and most free).
↪Astrophel
I would say that a value is a prescriptive idea that makes its possessor believe everyone else ought to approve of and adopt it.
It is bad for children to have lead dumped into their school lunches.
It is bad for people to be kidnapped, tortured, and enslaved.
It is bad for a fox to have its leg mangled in a trap.
It is bad for citizens of a country to experience a large-scale economic depression.
[...]
It seems fairly obvious that the truth of such statements is something that we can discover through the empirical sciences, the senses, etc. To insist otherwise is to insist that medicine, veterinary science, biology, welfare economics, etc. never provide us with information about what is truly good or bad for humans or other living things. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Further, it certainly seems that empirical sciences such as medicine, vetinary science, etc. can at least sometimes tell us about what is truly choice-worthy. — Count Timothy von Icarus
P1. The effects of burning are bad for me (i.e. burning is not choice-worthy).
P2. If I throw myself into the fire, I shall burn.
C. I ought not choose to throw myself into the fire. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Just consider what it would mean to deny values if we weren't separating off a sort of discrete "moral value." If practical reasoning (about good and bad) is not distinct from moral reasoning (about good and evil) and we deny practical reason, then we are denying that truth can ever be truly "better" than falsity, that good faith argument is better than bad faith argument, that invalid argument and obfuscation of this is ever worse than clear, valid argument, etc. Having taken away all values, argument, the search for truth, etc. seems to boil down to "whatever gets me whatever it happens to be that I currently desire." — Count Timothy von Icarus
because analytic philosophy doesn't talk about ethics, epistemology and ontology at the basic level, the level that belong exclusively to philosophy. — Astrophel
Moral principles that are universal?? — Astrophel
but at the core of every system lie certain objective moral principles that are universal to all humans (e.g., that one should not kill an innocent person merely for personal pleasure). — Showmee
ethics as such transcends reduction to what can be said about ethics. Rorty's failing lies in his commitment to propositional truth, that is, truth is what sentences have, not the world. But this truth is derivative OF the world, and thus, the world has to be understood inits ethical dimension, not in the finitude of language. — Astrophel
an invariant moral principle — Showmee
Is this where you are suggesting we look? — Tom Storm
. I think one emerges from all this thinking with a bent towards what one already IS coming into it. — Astrophel
...that arises simply out of a failure to observe what lies befor one's waking analytic eyes-- two things: first, this indeterminacy IS our existence, and it is where philosophy meets the pavement, so to speak. it is where philosophy belongs in the affirmative effort to bring to light the world as it IS. The world is most emphatically NOT an argument in its ground, but is entirely alien to everydayness, into which we are "thrown". — Astrophel
. As far as I am concerned, analytic philosophers are just a bunch of pathological post Kantians, who have entirely lost the sense of what it is to be human (yes, of course, there are exceptions), thinking the Truth lies in a truth table, an argument, and well drawn up theses. At heart, logicians. Might as well be mathematicians. — Astrophel
This is, for me, where transcendence begins: to perceive the world that has been rigorously liberated from Heidegger's "the they" (the finite totality of what can possibly be meaningful for a person and her languge and culture) altogether, yet not leaving it at all, for without the they, agency itself is lost. — Astrophel
Could you elaborate on the "basic level" you are referring to, I am really curious about it. — Showmee
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